The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

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Lively Stone

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Oh, I know! Most people do both. But I've also met lots of both who do tend to loose themselves a little! There are those who are so into the good works here on earth that they never seem to think of Christ's return! And conversely there are those who spend so much time looking into that future time when Jesus shows up, that they don't see the multitude of lost around them.
I'm not a pre tribber...but I love to read about it. I love thinking that Jesus could just show up! Actually, I think He could...I just don't think it will be in the rapture. But still, the idea that today could be the last day...that I could see Jesus today! Well, it sort of makes every day new and amazing. I think that's something every Christian could grab hold of, but still work tirelessly until the actual day arrives!
I suppose what I'm trying to say, is that I really don't understand why the second coming has to be a point of such argument between believers. Shouldn't it be something we rejoice in together? I understand debating it, discussing it, even disagreeing on it. But some people get so angry...like it's such a major point it effects salvation. I just want to yell "people, calm down...Jesus is coming, and it will be awesome...the end!"

Amen-2.gif
 

Foreigner

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When I first got saved I was told early on of the Rapture. As a new Christian I took almost everything I heard from other Christians as - no pun intended - Gospel.

In my studies over the following years I have found scripture that supports and scripture that calls into question the concept of the Rapture.

What's worse, there are strong, strong Christians who have spent more years than I have been alive studying God's Word.....and some stated the Word supports the Rapture and some have stated (just as strongly) that the Word indicates the Rapture is fals.

To make matters worse, some declare it will be Pre-Trib, some Mid-Trib, and some Post-Trib.

And that is my dilemma. People who have been true and intimate Christians for decades - whose desire is not to verify or support one position or the other - have poured their hearts into the Gospel to find the truth.......and have come to different conclusions.

My great hope is that the pre-Tribulation Rapture is true. I am conflicted however - based on the evidence I have seen - as to whether it is or not.

My impression is that we will find out one way or another during my lifetime.
 

Rach1370

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When I first got saved I was told early on of the Rapture. As a new Christian I took almost everything I heard from other Christians as - no pun intended - Gospel.

In my studies over the following years I have found scripture that supports and scripture that calls into question the concept of the Rapture.

What's worse, there are strong, strong Christians who have spent more years than I have been alive studying God's Word.....and some stated the Word supports the Rapture and some have stated (just as strongly) that the Word indicates the Rapture is fals.

To make matters worse, some declare it will be Pre-Trib, some Mid-Trib, and some Post-Trib.

And that is my dilemma. People who have been true and intimate Christians for decades - whose desire is not to verify or support one position or the other - have poured their hearts into the Gospel to find the truth.......and have come to different conclusions.

My great hope is that the pre-Tribulation Rapture is true. I am conflicted however - based on the evidence I have seen - as to whether it is or not.

My impression is that we will find out one way or another during my lifetime.

Hey Foreigner! I've had exactly the same experience! Well, mostly. My Grandpa was a strong believer in a pre trib rapture, so for a long time I just went along with that because he was quite a wise, loving person...a very strong Christian. But sort of out of the blue the whole subject just grabbed me and I started reading pretty much everything I could get my hands on about the subject. I went into it all thinking that the pre trib rapture was right. But time and again, questions kept bubbling up about it. Some things just didn't make sense to me. Some scripture seemed to support it, but just as many passages seemed not to.

I won't bother going into the years of see-sawing back and forward I did. And I still chuckle when I think about the camp I ended up in, after all my reading and praying. I would have told you 'no way' at the start. But I really think the amillennial view covers all questions, and fits all the passages best. Do I still think a pre trib rapture would be awesome...well, who wouldn't?! But I cannot, in any way, see Jesus 2nd coming portrayed in scripture as a two-parter! I cannot see, in any way, how we can separate in scripture, the fact that His 2nd coming is at the end of our time. He returns, people are judged and a new heaven and earth come....it's all the same event. If you want to check it out, and just confuse the issue even more, check out Dr Sam Storms website: enjoying God ministries.

Do I expect people here to squeak at my thoughts! Probably! But it doesn't bother me...after all, I don't think it's a subject to squeak over. I'm a Christian, I love Jesus, and I don't care how He shows up, or the timing, or the circumstances...all I care about is that He's coming. I surely hope it's soon, but if not, He knows best! I'm just comfortable feeling I've answered those questions that kept bugging me...and that the answers I've found sit with scripture and glorify Him. It doesn't matter if we all disagree, as long as the answers we find don't take away from any of those primary issues. As a pre trib Rapture doesn't, I'm happy if people want to believe it!
 

veteran

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Quoted from you.
This is why the Revelation 16:15 verse on the 6th Vial is our Lord Jesus still warning His Church on earth to wait for Him, keeping our garments (not deceived), for His coming will be "as a thief". He then gathers the wicked at Armageddon on the 7th Vial to pour out His wrath upon them... at His appearing.

Quoted from scripture.
Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

From here God's wrath is in all the bowls. Again I see the wrath starting at the sixth seal at least, but probably at the first seal. The seventh seal is the seven trumpets, and the seventh trumpet is the seven bowls. This is how it is presented by John in scripture.

That's how it was presented, and how John wrote it down. But we well know the 6th Seal events include Christ having appeared, which is why... those seek to hide from Him in the cleft of the rocks and desire the hills and mountains to fall on them; it's because of their shame!

Likewise with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd final Woe, all the kingdoms becoming possessed by Christ with His taking Power in reign over all the earth.

So also with the 7th Vial is the time of Christ's appearance, for back at the 6th Vial the dragon, beast, false prophet, and devils are still active on earth, and not yet subdued by Christ at His coming.

In 1 Thess.5 where Paul was saying that God's wrath is not upon "us", that's for ONLY those who remain faithful to Christ, which will not be every believer, but only those who stay... in Him through the trials.

Paul's Message in 2 Thess.2 about the "strong delusion" is specifically involving apostates that turn away from Christ during the trials, and instead worship the false messiah (pseudo-Christos) that comes first. Those represent the five foolish virgins that Jesus will tell to get away from Him when He appears on earth. Why? Because they did not stay in Him, but were deceived, and bowed in worship to a fake they thought was Him. That's specifically what "that Wicked" one represents who is to set himself up in the temple, exalting himself over ALL that is worshipped, and above all that is CALLED God (2 Thess.2:3-11).


Now I will not discount the idea that God can protect us in any situation, this I can see. I simply think His way of protecting us is by way of the rapture before the earth under goes His wrath. The 144,000 will be here at our return with Him. These or converts during the tribulation period are the people He warns at the sixth vile.

God is able. It's His enemies that want us to be scared to make a stand for Him. There's a major reason why our Lord Jesus used the pattern of Noah's day and the ark for the end time tribulation period. Noah and his were protected inside the ark from the flood waters. God in the Old Testament prophets used the idea of flood waters as a symbol for the enemy coming in to try and destroy. Our Lord Jesus used that in the Rev.12 chapter, past the time when Satan and his angels are booted down to this earth, and then go to persecute His Church on earth, with those symbolic waters of a flood coming out of his mouth. Christ's enemies don't want you to understand that Rev.12:7-17 casting out is about the endtime tribulation period, linked to the Dan.12:1 Scripture timing.
 

justaname

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Veteran,
Quoted from you here.
That's how it was presented, and how John wrote it down. But we well know the 6th Seal events include Christ having appeared, which is why... those seek to hide from Him in the cleft of the rocks and desire the hills and mountains to fall on them; it's because of their shame!

You admit this is how God presented it to John. You admit this is how John wrote it down. Then you reject what God and John say and come up with your own understanding. This is a slippery slope you are on. Why can't you see you are rejecting the written word of God to support you own theories.

You say "we well know the sixth seal events include Christ having appeared." Show me where John said that without cutting and rearranging the texts. John is the one telling the story not you.
This you can not deny, the angels do not have trumpets until after the opening of the seventh seal. Revelation 8:2
 

veteran

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Veteran, Quoted from you here. That's how it was presented, and how John wrote it down. But we well know the 6th Seal events include Christ having appeared, which is why... those seek to hide from Him in the cleft of the rocks and desire the hills and mountains to fall on them; it's because of their shame! You admit this is how God presented it to John. You admit this is how John wrote it down. Then you reject what God and John say and come up with your own understanding. This is a slippery slope you are on. Why can't you see you are rejecting the written word of God to support you own theories. You say "we well know the sixth seal events include Christ having appeared." Show me where John said that without cutting and rearranging the texts. John is the one telling the story not you. This you can not deny, the angels do not have trumpets until after the opening of the seventh seal. Revelation 8:2

I have not rejected our Lord's Revelation through His servant John at all. What I reject is men's traditions about it, and that's what has you confused on the order of events He gave John to write down.


Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)


Isa 13:9-13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
(KJV)


Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)


Isa 2:10-12
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
(KJV)


Many of the signs our Lord Jesus gave in His Revelation were straight from the Old Testament prophets. Lack of Bible study in that is what has caused many of the traditions of men about Revelation. Our Lord Jesus is to appear on that "day of the Lord", even as Apostles Paul and Peter witnessed in the New Testament. Peter even said to be mindful of what was written by the OT prophets, and Paul told us the OT events serve as "ensamples" (examples) for us upon whom the ends of the world has come (2 Pet.3; 1 Cor.10).

Now if you think going back to read the OT prophets about the signs our Lord Jesus gave there on that 6th Seal is cutting and rearranging the Scriptures, then I see no hope for you ever understanding those Revelation events. And to prefer how men's traditions cover it over the direct Scripture references like those above, reveals you're in deep deception about the end time events.
 

justaname

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What you posted above completely agrees with the church being raptured before the coming of the Son of man.
Matthew and Mark speak of the gathering of the elect, which is described in Revelation 7:1-8. And the gathering of those in the uttermost part of heaven. Revelation 7:9-14

I suppose the question begs to ask, are you someone who does not want to come out of the great tribulation?
 

veteran

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What you posted above completely agrees with the church being raptured before the coming of the Son of man.
Matthew and Mark speak of the gathering of the elect, which is described in Revelation 7:1-8. And the gathering of those in the uttermost part of heaven. Revelation 7:9-14

I suppose the question begs to ask, are you someone who does not want to come out of the great tribulation?


Since you're only concerned with bearing false witness against those Scripture proofs I posted for our gathering to Christ and His coming to end the tribulation, then I guess I'm forced to cover each one of those examples further.

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

Major signs given in the above on the 6th Seal:
"a great earthquake"
"sun became black as sackcloth"
"moon became as blood"
"heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together"
"every mountain and island were moved out of their places"
kings of the earth, great men, rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondsmen, free men, hide in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains, and say for the mountains and rocks to "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb".
"the great day of His wrath is come"


Isa 13:9-13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Direct parallel to the time when those kings, rich men, chief captains, etc., suffer the wrath of The Lamb (Jesus Christ). The "day of the Lord" is when Christ comes "as a thief" per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10.


Isa.13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Direct parallel to the sun becoming black and the appearance of the moon changing.

Isa.13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Direct parallel to the wrath of The Lamb upon the wicked on earth per the 6th Seal.


Isa.13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
(KJV)

Direct parallel to heaven departing like a scroll as when it is rolled up. Direct parallel to the time of the 'wrath' of The Lamb upon the wicked on earth, on "the day of the Lord". That's what shall end the tribulation, as it ends this present world time.



Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Direct parallel to the same timing given in Isaiah 13 and Rev.6 on the 6th SEAL, to occur "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".


Matt.24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Same timing of the 6th Seal with the rich men, mighty men, kings, etc., seeking to hide from the face of The Lamb That sits upon His throne, and from His wrath, for His wrath is come upon the wicked at that point of Christ's coming to gather His elect.



Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

Same example as Matthew 24, but with Christ's elect on earth being gathered to Him at that same point in time.



Isa 2:10-12
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
(KJV)

Direct parallel to the 6th Seal event of those who seek to hide in the dens and in the mountains from the face of The Lamb, for the time of His wrath has come at that point with that "day of the Lord" timing.
 

justaname

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Let God and the scriptures be my witness. The Lord rebuke you for your false witness against me.

To be quite sure, all the bowls contain God's wrath. Scripturally sound doctrine. Revelation 16:1
We are not destined for wrath. Scripturally sound doctrine. 1 Thessalonians 1:10
The angels are handed the trumpets after the opening of the seventh seal, thereby the trumpets follow the seals. Scripturally sound doctrine. Revelation 8:1-2
Jesus returns with all His saints. Scripturally sound doctrine.
Zechariah 14:5 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Revealtion 19:14 Revelation 7:9

Now I have a final scripture for you. Titus 3:9-11
 

veteran

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Let God and the scriptures be my witness. The Lord rebuke you for your false witness against me.

To be quite sure, all the bowls contain God's wrath. Scripturally sound doctrine. Revelation 16:1
We are not destined for wrath. Scripturally sound doctrine. 1 Thessalonians 1:10
The angels are handed the trumpets after the opening of the seventh seal, thereby the trumpets follow the seals. Scripturally sound doctrine. Revelation 8:1-2
Jesus returns with all His saints. Scripturally sound doctrine.
Zechariah 14:5 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Revealtion 19:14 Revelation 7:9

Now I have a final scripture for you. Titus 3:9-11

You're the one that will suffer the rebuke, because of your denial of God's Word as written in favor of following the false prophets that have bewitched you. And in time, you will... know it. The more of His simple Truth in Scripture you are shown, the deeper 'another spirit' overtakes you in your rebellion!

It is exactly how others on this Forum have said about those on the false Pre-trib Rapture theories of false prophets. They cannot stick to simple Scripture, nor can they prove their false pre-trib secret rapture ideas within God's Word.

So they must... resort to fabrications, bearing false witness, anything... to try and prevent the simple Scriptures in God's Word from speaking as written. Those truly do reveal the example of the deceived Paul gave about those 'drunken in the night' (1 Thess.5).
 

Lively Stone

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It is nonsense for Christians to accuse other Christians of being led by a false spirit or that they are in line for rebuke when it comes to end times events, or are bewitched and in denial of the scriptures. None of that is the truth. In fact, it is a pretty nasty spirit that accuses in the first place, and causes a siege mentality and forms warring camps surrounding this issue.

It doesn't matter in the long run. Jesus is coming back and He is coming back for His Bride. If you know Jesus personally, then He is coming back for you, no matter what camp you are in. It would behoove us to offer a bit more lovingkindness when discussing this issue. It has nothing to do with one's salvation, and if one wants to argue that, then one is wrong about that. These are only interpretations.
 

veteran

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It is nonsense for Christians to accuse other Christians of being led by a false spirit or that they are in line for rebuke when it comes to end times events, or are bewitched and in denial of the scriptures. None of that is the truth. In fact, it is a pretty nasty spirit that accuses in the first place, and causes a siege mentality and forms warring camps surrounding this issue.

It doesn't matter in the long run. Jesus is coming back and He is coming back for His Bride. If you know Jesus personally, then He is coming back for you, no matter what camp you are in. It would behoove us to offer a bit more lovingkindness when discussing this issue. It has nothing to do with one's salvation, and if one wants to argue that, then one is wrong about that. These are only interpretations.


2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)


If one is deceived and prepared to be fooled into worshipping the coming false messiah (that "another Jesus") in place of our True Lord Jesus Christ, the CAUSE of doing that per Apostle Paul is the receiving of "another spirit"!

And you thought I was making that up!
 

teamventure

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veteran, the idea that pre tribers will fall for the antichrist more then any other triber is ridiculous.
 

Lively Stone

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2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)


If one is deceived and prepared to be fooled into worshipping the coming false messiah (that "another Jesus") in place of our True Lord Jesus Christ, the CAUSE of doing that per Apostle Paul is the receiving of "another spirit"!

And you thought I was making that up!

You aren't making anything up, but you are misinterpreting scripture. Why would a born again follower of Jesus who obeys the word of God and is on guard for falsehoods be beguiled? How does one worship a false Christ when we know that Jesus doesn't come to earth the same way as the Antichrist comes, which is surreptitiously? Right now there are all sorts of antichrists out there who are beguiling our weaker brothers and sisters and even unbelievers. Put your energies into helping them.

The interpretation of eschatological scriptures is just that---interpretation. No one has it completely buttoned up. Not even you.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat Shalom, veteran.

I'm with Lively Stone on these last points, and with teamventure, as well. It IS ridiculous to accuse other believers - brothers and sisters in the Messiah - of "receiving another spirit" or "another Jesus" or "another Gospel." Can't we just come to the realization that people learn at different rates and learn truths in different orders? Why must you go on the attack when someone disagrees with you? That's NOT a "Christian" attitude!

Ever hear the saying, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"? It's commonly called "(Robert) Hanlon's razor" and is applicable to all, for all feel they are somehow in the right and everyone else is wrong, by the way.

Remember: Everyone has blind spots, errors in their thinking that they just can't see yet because they are too close to the problem. That's why group therapy sessions in psychology are often encouraged. We can more easily see the faults and mistakes in others than we can in ourselves.

When I was in fourth grade, my teacher, Mr. Burton, taught us a few words of wisdom we were to memorize:

"Strange how much ya' have to know before ya' know how LITTLE ya' know!"

and ...

"You don't know that you don't know what you don't know!"

Let's face it; we're ALL still learning (or at least we SHOULD be) about God's Word and eschatology. When we think we know it all, that's when God will knock us down a peg and show us we don't know as much as we think we do! Therefore, we are still within a learning curve! No matter where you are along your curve; you may or may NOT be farther along than someone else.

Consider: Suppose all the parts we must learn are represented by capital letters of the alphabet. (We'll assume there's only 26 things to know in eschatology; actually, there are THOUSANDS of things to know, but I'm just trying to limit them to make a point.)

There's no particular order in which these 26 things need to be learned, consequently some will learn them in A-B-C-... order while others might learn them in Z-Y-X-... order or some other random order. With 26 elements, there are 26! (26 factorial) combinations in which these items can be learned.

What often happens is that one person will have learned A, B and C, but someone else may have learned A, D, and E. Neither one is wrong, but the first person still needs to learn D and E while the second person still needs to learn B and C. But what is true for both of them is that they still need to learn F through Z! Someone else (that they BOTH think is WAY out of whack) may know G, M, N, and Q, but has NEVER learned A through E at all! So, who's right? Who's wrong? Actually, all three of them may be right on those points they've already learned, but all three of them are WRONG overall because they don't yet know the WHOLE STORY!

If we can't learn from each other, then the next best thing is to part ways in an agreeable way. We must just agree to disagree and remain friendly about it!

P.S. - We should always treat others who claim to know Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) as a brother or sister in the Lord! We can't look upon the heart as God does; therefore, we must give EVERYONE we meet the benefit of the doubt! Always treat them as though you were treating the Messiah Himself that way! You never know who is indeed a brother or sister, or a POTENTIAL brother or sister!
 

justaname

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Shabbat Shalom, veteran. I'm with Lively Stone on these last points, and with teamventure, as well. It IS ridiculous to accuse other believers - brothers and sisters in the Messiah - of "receiving another spirit" or "another Jesus" or "another Gospel." Can't we just come to the realization that people learn at different rates and learn truths in different orders? Why must you go on the attack when someone disagrees with you? That's NOT a "Christian" attitude! Ever hear the saying, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"? It's commonly called "(Robert) Hanlon's razor" and is applicable to all, for all feel they are somehow in the right and everyone else is wrong, by the way. Remember: Everyone has blind spots, errors in their thinking that they just can't see yet because they are too close to the problem. That's why group therapy sessions in psychology are often encouraged. We can more easily see the faults and mistakes in others than we can in ourselves. When I was in fourth grade, my teacher, Mr. Burton, taught us a few words of wisdom we were to memorize: "Strange how much ya' have to know before ya' know how LITTLE ya' know!" and ... "You don't know that you don't know what you don't know!" Let's face it; we're ALL still learning (or at least we SHOULD be) about God's Word and eschatology. When we think we know it all, that's when God will knock us down a peg and show us we don't know as much as we think we do! Therefore, we are still within a learning curve! No matter where you are along your curve; you may or may NOT be farther along than someone else. Consider: Suppose all the parts we must learn are represented by capital letters of the alphabet. (We'll assume there's only 26 things to know in eschatology; actually, there are THOUSANDS of things to know, but I'm just trying to limit them to make a point.) There's no particular order in which these 26 things need to be learned, consequently some will learn them in A-B-C-... order while others might learn them in Z-Y-X-... order or some other random order. With 26 elements, there are 26! (26 factorial) combinations in which these items can be learned. What often happens is that one person will have learned A, B and C, but someone else may have learned A, D, and E. Neither one is wrong, but the first person still needs to learn D and E while the second person still needs to learn B and C. But what is true for both of them is that they still need to learn F through Z! Someone else (that they BOTH think is WAY out of whack) may know G, M, N, and Q, but has NEVER learned A through E at all! So, who's right? Who's wrong? Actually, all three of them may be right on those points they've already learned, but all three of them are WRONG overall because they don't yet know the WHOLE STORY! If we can't learn from each other, then the next best thing is to part ways in an agreeable way. We must just agree to disagree and remain friendly about it! P.S. - We should always treat others who claim to know Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) as a brother or sister in the Lord! We can't look upon the heart as God does; therefore, we must give EVERYONE we meet the benefit of the doubt! Always treat them as though you were treating the Messiah Himself that way! You never know who is indeed a brother or sister, or a POTENTIAL brother or sister!

I like this alphabet analogy. I think a positive aspect for forums like this is because we don't know the entire truth. As others learn different aspects, we can share thereby building strength in the church.
 

veteran

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You aren't making anything up, but you are misinterpreting scripture. Why would a born again follower of Jesus who obeys the word of God and is on guard for falsehoods be beguiled? How does one worship a false Christ when we know that Jesus doesn't come to earth the same way as the Antichrist comes, which is surreptitiously? Right now there are all sorts of antichrists out there who are beguiling our weaker brothers and sisters and even unbelievers. Put your energies into helping them.

The interpretation of eschatological scriptures is just that---interpretation. No one has it completely buttoned up. Not even you.

And how have you understood what Paul was saying there in 2 Cor.11 about that "another Jesus" and the receiving of "another spirit"? Are you able to only dish out an opinion to support men's doctrines, or can you read and heed Paul's warning there in simplicity without the aid of men's doctrines?

Shabbat Shalom, veteran.

I'm with Lively Stone on these last points, and with teamventure, as well. It IS ridiculous to accuse other believers - brothers and sisters in the Messiah - of "receiving another spirit" or "another Jesus" or "another Gospel." Can't we just come to the realization that people learn at different rates and learn truths in different orders? Why must you go on the attack when someone disagrees with you? That's NOT a "Christian" attitude!


I guess you also deny what Apostle Paul said there in 2 Cor.11 too...


2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)

2 Cor 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
(KJV)


Influence by a different spirit than The Holy Spirit most definitely... is a Biblical warning Christ and His Apostles gave many times within Scripture...

1 Tim 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(KJV)

I Jn 4:1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
(KJV)


Quite a few of those lying spirits in many Churches today.
 

Lively Stone

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And how have you understood what Paul was saying there in 2 Cor.11 about that "another Jesus" and the receiving of "another spirit"? Are you able to only dish out an opinion to support men's doctrines, or can you read and heed Paul's warning there in simplicity without the aid of men's doctrines?

2 Corinthians 11 is simply Paul exhorting the church there to keep to the ways of the Lord which he has taught them. Out of great love for them, he warned them about keeping the flames of devotion for Jesus Christ alive, and of not being corrupted...


[sup]3[/sup] But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent.


How do you extrapolate from that about a pre- or post-tribulation stance?
 

veteran

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2 Corinthians 11 is simply Paul exhorting the church there to keep to the ways of the Lord which he has taught them. Out of great love for them, he warned them about keeping the flames of devotion for Jesus Christ alive, and of not being corrupted...


[sup]3[/sup] But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent.


How do you extrapolate from that about a pre- or post-tribulation stance?

Is that the only verse of that 2 Corinthians 11 Scripture?

Why would you skip the next verse which should... have answered your question for you?

2 Cor 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)

Interpret that above verse for me?
 

Lively Stone

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Is that the only verse of that 2 Corinthians 11 Scripture?

Why would you skip the next verse which should... have answered your question for you?

What verse? I was speaking of the entire chapter.

2 Cor 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
(KJV)

Interpret that above verse for me?

2 Corinthians 11:4
You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.


This is part of Paul's exhortation or a warning to the church about being careful about who they listen to or follow after. It isn't eschatological.