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The Rapture Of The Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by special1, May 21, 2007.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Heaven will be on earth flesh and blood can not enter heaven1 Corinthians 15:50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable
     
  2. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr;15543)
    And What do the dead do? But sleep, God doesn't care about your crappy body. It's ridiculious to believe that God would raise up, say Paul's or Peter's old Body. The Parable of the Rich Man proves this, as Eliazar is seen by the rich man on the other side of the gulf by him. The spirit is the intelligent of the soul. The things that make you who you are. Your Body is just a vessel to hold stuff. What has to decay will always perish.No, It doesn't. I see you even quote Bullinger! Why would you believe that?Theres a verse in the Bible that says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess! This means both Good, Bad and Indifferent. Everyone not just Christians. The scriptures do not say were asleep in our old dead bodies either. Well I can guarentee Adam and eve had them, before they fell and were cast out, This is what we will return to, no6t this false belief of yours. No, physical immortal spirit body any more than adam or eve had. A solid liquid has properties of ICE, very possible. I think you missed the point!Well, who returns with Him? "Gabriel" literally means "Man of God." Our spirit is looking to return to a bunch of remorphed up dirt. The life resides in the blood!
    I think you need to reread my post because you didn't understand my point.....read it again please.
     
  3. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (kriss;15547)
    Heaven will be on earth flesh and blood can not enter heaven1 Corinthians 15:50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable
    A person who has been glorified can enter Heaven, if he/she wants....Jesus has a body and He is in Heaven.
     
  4. ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr

    ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr New Member

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    Yes, I read your posts. I think you don't understand. Christ had on his incorruptable body on. Thats why he appeared before the disciples the way he did, and why the men on the road did not notice him.Mat 27:50-53 States:Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. These people that were seen, did not raise up in dead flesh, like zombies. To raise up means to raise from Hell, which means "grave" back to the land of the living, as it were. The Fact these saints were all probably seen here and there by people who could discern them or who they appeared to, also reinforces this fact. They were probably around until Christ returned to heaven on Pentecost some months later. This is the cloud of witnesses, to the quick and the dead. The first judgement of God on man was by water, the 2nd will be by Fire. With bodies that can't be affected by eartly elements only spritual ones.Job 34:14-16 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.
     
  5. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr;15579)
    Yes, I read your posts. I think you don't understand. Christ had on his incorruptable body on. Thats why he appeared before the disciples the way he did, and why the men on the road did not notice him.
    I certainly did not say or imply that we will still be in our corruptible body.....all I said was that we will have an immortal glorified body....just like Jesus. I also said we will not be spirit, because spirits do not have a body, and the scriptures do not say that we will become spirits...I myself came into the Church believing this, untill I saw what the Bible said, then I changed my beliefe to that of what the scripture said. It says we will have a spiritual body. A spiritual body is not a spirit body.
     
  6. ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr

    ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr New Member

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    Fine whatever, But to me there is no difference.A (spirit)ual body is just that a transfigured body. Besides you said your flesh would be raised. trans·fig·ure (trns-fgyr)tr.v. trans·fig·ured, trans·fig·ur·ing, trans·fig·ures 1. To alter the outward appearance of; transform. See Synonyms at convert.2. To exalt or glorify.http://johnbirch.tripod.com/transfigured.htmAnyways. Whatever.
     
  7. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr;15601)
    Fine whatever, But to me there is no difference.A (spirit)ual body is just that a transfigured body. Besides you said your flesh would be raised. trans·fig·ure (trns-fgyr)tr.v. trans·fig·ured, trans·fig·ur·ing, trans·fig·ures 1. To alter the outward appearance of; transform. See Synonyms at convert.2. To exalt or glorify.http://johnbirch.tripod.com/transfigured.htmAnyways. Whatever.
    Transfiguration is one thing, spirit is another and having a spiritual body is even another. When Jesus was transfigured, He did not became spirit (spirit cannot be seen by our eyes), nor did Jesus had a spiritual body as He does now.Truth is truth, and there is nothing wrong in admitting error, what is wrong is to insist on believing something even when the scripture tells us otherwise. As I stated before I too had believed that we would become spirit, at Jesus' return, but I had made a commitment to God at baptism, where in effect I said, the old man and its ways; doing what my old self wanted to do, is dead, and from now on you God (His word/Bible) is whom I will obey.This truth has not changed who we are and what we will be in glory. We all (Christian), at Jesus' return will be like Jesus, as He now is, and who is Jesus? He is God in body form. So in other words we will be like God, in body form. We will have a unique relationship with the Father and the Son that not even the faithful angels have with God. We will have His Nature and Character, and we will have the right to rule over all things (including angels) just as God does. We will have eternal life; the angels do not have eternal life, they have immortal life, but the life we even now have is the very life that God has....uncreated life.
     
  8. ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr

    ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr New Member

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    I disagree. God will return us to the earth that was. Spirit is just the intellect of the soul. Revelation is Genesis in reverse. Spirit as you call them can be seen if they want to, and you can perceive them. You haven't proved anything to me. There is no difference between eternal and immortal. Angel's will be judged (the bad one's) by believers. The Good one's Like the four creatures around God's throne won't change a bit.
     
  9. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr;15651)
    I disagree. God will return us to the earth that was. Spirit is just the intellect of the soul. Revelation is Genesis in reverse. Spirit as you call them can be seen if they want to, and you can perceive them. You haven't proved anything to me. There is no difference between eternal and immortal. Angel's will be judged (the bad one's) by believers. The Good one's Like the four creatures around God's throne won't change a bit.
    Believe as you wish....I am done.
     
  10. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    Rev.20:11-15Vs.12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books wereopened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to thier works.Vs.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.I do believe that this event takes place before the Great White Throne!So flesh and blood do go to heaven but they can't stay!It also say's that in IThes. 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;It say's clearly here that the dead in Christ will rise, why would we need our dead bodies if they can not go to heaven? Because our dead bodies will recieve glorified bodies.
     
  11. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    Hey Kriss,Just out of curiosity, do you believe that we are currently in the Tribulation period?If so where is it during that 7 year period do you feel that we are currently living in?It's not a loaded question, I'm just curious about what you believe concerning this!
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    JodyI think we are very close perhaps within months I will write more of an explanation this afternoon I have to go to a right now.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    First let me remind you that this is just my opinion I have biblical and personal reasons for my opinion but in the end its just an opinion and everyone has one. I think that there is a good chance Satan will be kicked to earth starting the 1st tribulation about May of 2008 however it could be one year later in May of 2009Now before any one accuses me of Date setting, I do not know the actual day or hour no one does save our father in heaven.We are told we are to know the season.What is a season has anyone seen Autumn turn to winter, spring turn to summer?What happens ?We see more and more signs that season is about to change. So it is with the season of the End times. Now why do I think this1. My first reason is the parable of the Fig treeWe are told the last Generation will be the one that sees Israel restored as a nation.God promises the Generation that wittiness's this event shall not pass before the End and the coming of our Lord. This of course occurred in May,15 1948There are three Generations in scripture a 40 yrs,70 yrs,and 120 years.40 years have already passed, Men do not live to 120 years, So that leaves 70 years70 years from 1948 is May 15 2018. So unless our life expectancy increases to 120 years very soon between now and 2018 would seem a reasonable assumption. http://www.christianityboard.com/parable-f...ht=parable+tree2. I think there is much misunderstanding about this 7 year(1 week) period of time I think it started on September 11,2001 with the bombing of the twin towers. The day the world changed. From a religious viewpoint it was the event that triggered the beginning of the battle between Ephraim, Manasseh (U.S. Britain) and the rest of ten lost tribes(collectively called Israel) and the descendants of Cain or put another way the Christian nations against radical Islam (terrorists) Assuming this is so the seven years brings us to Sept. 11 2008.3.Now lets turn our attention to last 3 1/2 years (42 months,or 1260 days) of the seven year period. This is the time spoken of in Rev. some of the events that are mentioned are the coming of Anti christ,( Satan getting kicked out of heaven)The two witnesses ext. Rev. says that Satan can not kill but only torture them for how long? Satan can only toture for five monthsRevelation 9:5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. Rev.9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. Rev9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. These are names for SatanGod has shortened the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation (the of time Satan/antichrist) a FIVE Month period . Dont misubderstand me here God has only shortened the time Satan has on earth not the actual calander Why for the Elects sakeMatthew 24:22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.Mark 13:20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.So if the last 3 1/2 years of Satans time is shortened to 5 months and the seven years started on Sept.11, 2001 May thru Sept. is the last five months in the seven year period. However there is the possibility that God could wait until the full Seven years has passed, putting this into the year 2009. (I still think it will May thru sept of that year as that is the time of the locusts and we are also told pray not that it be in winter)As I have said this is a quick version of my opinion based on my observations and Biblical understanding. And there will be No pre- trib rapture before Christs coming at 7th trump,(Gods trump The 2nd Tribulation) PSAn interesting side study into some of the deeper things of God Word is found if you study the life cycle of the Locust (Satan and his locust armies)The life of the locust from larvae to Adult hood takes five months (May thru Sept.)Another one is a study of how the scorpion kills its prey a sting to paralyze then by regurgitating its poison into its victim dissolving its insides.Same as Satan's lies will be regurgitated into his victims destroying their souls(inner man)
     
  14. John

    John Member

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    Kriss I was enjoying your post until you spoke of rev. 9:5It has always looked to me, that this was talking of non believersRev 9:4 and 54And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. Those with the seal of God I have always believed to be believers, they were told to hurt only those without the seal of God, unbelievers also the fact that they are seeking death makes them look like nonbelievers. Can you please explain your view on this verse
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You are right John My typing error thank you (mind moving faster than the hand)These are the unsealed of God I was using the verse for the five month period that is highlightened NOT meaning to say these were Gods Elect They are not. NextI was pointing out why God shortened the time was for the Elect sake . God has given us a good clue as to how long Satan will rule as Antichrist. That time is five months. The book of Joel describes in detail how this method of the locust works. The result of that torment is exactly as the torment of the scorpion that "striketh a man".
     
  16. jodycour

    jodycour New Member

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    That's really interesting Kriss,Thanks for going into detail about what you believe concerning this issue.I really appreciate it, this is definately something to consider!
     
  17. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Hello KrissReally enjoyed your post,very interesting.As you stated this is your opininon,however I think the time you gave is just a little to soon(my opinion)also consider that some don't think the planting was until 1967 and I think this could be possible,so I guess you could say Im torn between the two.In any event, I feel we must be in the period of the one world government,before satan appears,and that government will fail(mortal wound)before satan comes claiming he is Christ to heal that wound,which would then usher in the one world religous system.Although 9/11 was bad I think something else will happen just as bad,and at that point will bring about marshall law paving the way for the one world government.Again I enjoyed your post and like you this is only my opinion,but I think we both realize it will be soon.I do feel you on the locust and the scorpian analogy,and will agree that people need to get the deeper meaning of what the scripture is saying.
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You could be right N2 and I certainly do agree about the something happening and marshall law being declared.guess I just think that will be sooner than you do. I think the 1967 date is improtant but the fig tree has been fulfilled on that also as we just a few months ago celebrated the 40th year (1967-2007) So that fulfills the forty year Gen. May 2008 fulfills the 70 year gen. either way interesting times we live in.[​IMG]
     
  19. Gods Child

    Gods Child New Member

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    Hello,I am new to this thread and I must say I have found it very interesting. Just so you can get to know me, I will tell you a little about myself;I was not raised in a Church. I was saved in my back yard at the age of 38. Since there were so may Churches and so many doctrines, I stayed out of the Churches and let the Holy Spirit teach me. I studied day and night, which was a miracle in and of itself. I never read anything longer than a short magazine article before I was saved, but after I was saved, I could not get enough of God's word. I filled up 3 files cabinets of notes within the first 6 months. (BIG File cabinets....Me of all people...God's hand for sure)Since the beginning, God placed in my heart the desire for end time prophecy. I found myself drawn to it and in that, there were things that God wanted to show me. God showed me that; we will be changed at the 7th trumpet (last trumpet). I had no outside influence, only the direction, guidance and voice of God to lead me to the truth. I did not see a pre-rapture written in the scriptures. It was a few years after my salvation that I first heard of the pre-trib doctrine. So I wanted to know more about it. I started on the internet boards for the answer, as to what was pre-trib. Since that time, I have talked to 1000’s of pre-tribs and still to this date have not been given any scripture to support that belief. I feel compelled to speak out against this doctrine, because God has told me that this will end up being the great deception of the End times. This teaching has been designed by Satan to get people to believe the true Christ will come first, but in reality the false Christ will come first. Those who have been taught pre-trib will fall for this deception. They will believe the false Christ when he comes first, because they were taught that the true Christ would come first.I feel compelled to speak out for my Love of my Brethren. (To keep them from the stumble that is about to come). I have talked to pre-tribs both off and online. These are some wonderful people, who truly Love the Lord. The most that I have gotten from ANY pre-trib when asked for scriptural proof, is that, 99% of them, end up telling me that this was what they were taught. They have told me plainly, that they believe this solely because this is how they were taught and this breaks my heart. To think that, they would follow a doctrine that has no scriptural backing, which in reality makes them believe man over God. (The one thing that God detests the most). This doctrine (pre-trib) really has no consequence now, but at the time of the antichrist, this doctrine will cause those taught pre-trib to accept the antichrist as the true Christ. That in essence is the danger of this doctrine and the plan of Satan himself to prepare his way. I do not say this to hurt anyone who believes in pre-trib, but to get them to question "Why do I believe it"? Do I believe it because God said it would be this way or do I believe it because I was taught to believe it. You need to question - Where is the scriptural proof in God's word as to why I should believe it - That is the question to you need to seek the answer for.....Point blank! God's Word....Where is this written....Do not be deceived...as Jesus told us in Mathew 24 and many other places...DO NOT BE DECEIVED>..Follow God, Not man !!!!!!!!! Man has been wrong since the beginning!I know that the Majority believes in Pre-trib, but the last days will be as in the days of Noah...RememberThe Days of Noah....The Majority Drowned.....Majority does not make it truth.
     
  20. Gods Child

    Gods Child New Member

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    (jodycour;16886)
    Rev.20:11-15Vs.12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books wereopened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to thier works.Vs.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.I do believe that this event takes place before the Great White Throne!So flesh and blood do go to heaven but they can't stay!It also say's that in IThes. 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;It say's clearly here that the dead in Christ will rise, why would we need our dead bodies if they can not go to heaven? Because our dead bodies will recieve glorified bodies.
    From reading your post I take it that you are pre-trib. How then do you explain the previous verses of Rev 20:4-5?20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.How can there be a resurrection before the mark of the beast, since this tells us that those that did not take the mark of the beast are in the 1st resurrection. If this is the FIRST resurrection after the mark of the beast....... How can their be a resurrection 7 years prior, since this is called the first and places it after the mark of the beast?
     
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