The Rapture

[Robbie]

Ok... so we're gonna not see eye to eye on everything probably for sure... but yes I do believe Jesus is God... I believe He's God's Word... and also that if you've seen Jesus you've seen the Father... He's the perfect revelation of God because HE is..but I also believe the Father is greater than Jesus... not in a sense of being but in magnitude.

 

[Duckybill]

Ok... so we're gonna not see eye to eye on everything probably for sure... but yes I do believe Jesus is God... I believe He's God's Word... and also that if you've seen Jesus you've seen the Father... He's the perfect revelation of God because HE is..but I also believe the Father is greater than Jesus... not in a sense of being but in magnitude.

Thanks for clarifying Robbie.

 

[Robbie]

No worries Ducky = ) We're all trying to do what we think is right... some of us just have different opinions of what that is... and I might be naive to think so but I believe everyone here starts with good intentions... even if we do from time to time get sucked into the battle of the egos...

 

[Duckybill]

No worries Ducky = ) We're all trying to do what we think is right... some of us just have different opinions of what that is... and I might be naive to think so but I believe everyone here starts with good intentions... even if we do from time to time get sucked into the battle of the egos...

I hear ya. Thanks!

 

[Comm.Arnold]

Yes of course it is real.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hey Taylor!! Since you started the thread....what's your opinion on the Rapture?? To have bought up the topic and in reference to biblical teaching, you must have your thoughts?

Yes, I do, they were expressed in the OP. Personally, I am pre-trib. I am also smart enough not to debate the issue as far as the timing except in the case of the post-tribs. The Rapture will occur, just as the Bible promises.

The only importance concerning the rapture is the multitude of people who are going to be unprepared when tribulation comes and they're still here. The only people who should concern themselves with the timing of the rapture are the pretribbers, because they're the only ones with anything to lose if they're wrong. I'm anticipating being here the entire time (unless I die first) and preparing my faith to be able to endure to the end as Christ commanded, therefore I have no reason to try and pinpoint when the rapture is supposed to occur (if at all). If scripture repeatedly emphasizes preparedness and endurance to the end, does it really take a rocket scientist or master theologian to see that a doctrine that states that believers won't even be here to the end might be somewhat suspect?

That of course would depend on just how you view the entire, almost a, time line in the scriptures. I am a pre-trib. ad I can tell you that I have nothing to loose because, in any case, Iḿ going to Heaven!

That argument is ridiculous Duckybill... the pharisees found their reason to crucify Jesus out of the bible... for exmple I have friends that are in magazines... what makes me more their friend... if I only read what they said in magazines and read what people said about them or if I call them up or hang out with them directly? By the Spirit we now have direct access... so what's a more real relationship with Jesus... reading what He was quoted as saying and talking to other people who have talked to Him or walking with Him and talking to Him directly every minute of every day... or do you even believe that's possible?

Quite a statement of faith... so tell me, by what standard do you test the spirit you walk with?

 

[HammerStone]

Well, most of my views about this are known.

1) If you want to label it, I am a "post tribulationer," that is, I believe that Jesus will most certainly return and it will be after Satan's work.

2) I believe those who teach/preach/etc. "pre-tribulational rapture," the return of Jesus first to pull the church out of a collapsing world, to be in error.

3)I have, in recent times, backed off of the nouns and adjectives in my statements for the people who believe in the pre-trib. rapture. I realized it served no purpose, and I do think people will awaken to what is going on when it starts to go down. It is not a salvational issue, but I'd almost mark it with an asterisk that it can be if what Jesus said about it is totally ignored. That, unfortunately, does not stop me from becoming frustrated at times, but so be it. I think the real issue that all sides experience is that we've lost sight of the fact that it's all about Jesus. Not calendars, not us, not days, not anything or anyone else but Jesus and His return. If you really know his Word and still believe differently from me, that's all I ask and care about.

4) My primary argument from Scripture is that the verses simply don't confirm it when they're examined as a whole. As someone pointed out, when verses are examined in a vacuum, even Christ can be condemned. As for the arguments about Scripture, I know and accept it's inerrancy. However, that same Word talks very clearly about the Holy Spirit who speaks to us so we understand the written Word. God's word is living. My prayers, my studies, and God's guidance have always placed me at the point of post-trib.

5) Simply put, to expand on the previous entry, Christians are never pulled aside. Suffering in the Bible is very real and very common for God's people. I talked with the youth today about Job. Did God pull Noah out of the world, or was here right there in it? Daniel? Shadrach, Meshach, & Abednego? Elijah? Paul? Peter? Jesus? The divine model, if anything, is that God pulls through and He is always there with us in these things.

That's my take and I believe, more importantly, the Bible's take on the matter.

 

[Rach1370]

Do you ever wonder if the reason some people are 'convicted' of pre-trib, while others post-trib, is for the very simple reason that the debates and discussions between the groups (if done in Godly acceptance of the disagreement) keeps our Lords return fresh in our minds?
Consider all the Christians out there who never give it any thought....they don't think about Jesus' return!!! What on earth are we living for if it's not the return of the King and His Kingdom?? I get we are to live for Him and for others while we are still here, but that is our ultimate hope, yeah?
So, as you said HammerStone, as long as we don't forget that it's all about Jesus, maybe the constant debating serves a purpose??
Just a thought.....

 

[Robbie]

Yeah Hammerstone... all those people suffered... but they didn't suffer because of God... they suffered because of man's rebellion against God... I recognize that this is made possible by God's decision to give us free will... but what was he going to do? Keep us locked in the closet... haha..so I see that giving someone free will doesn't mean you're allowing them to do whatever they want... that's a common principle in the relationship between a child and their parents... even though they're given freedom there's things they're not supposed to do... and when a child uses their freedom to rebel against their parents wishes... it's not their parents allowing them to do something... it's the kid taking advantage of their parent's.

So the way I see it is what do Noah, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, Elijah, Paul, Peter, and Jesus have in common.... they all suffered because of man's rebellion against God... and if God is allowing something it can't be considered rebellion...

As far as the rapture... I don't really see the Left Behind series as sound doctrine... haha... but I could see God delivering us out of His judgment... I mean He did Lot... He said He wouldn't pour out His judgment if there was righteous people there and then saved Lot... and if Lot was righteous enough to save even though as soon as he left Sodom he got wasted and had sex with his daughters... I'm pretty sure God's got enough grace for us as well... haha

 

[TWC]

Yes, I do, they were expressed in the OP. Personally, I am pre-trib. I am also smart enough not to debate the issue as far as the timing except in the case of the post-tribs. The Rapture will occur, just as the Bible promises.

That of course would depend on just how you view the entire, almost a, time line in the scriptures. I am a pre-trib. ad I can tell you that I have nothing to loose because, in any case, Iḿ going to Heaven!

Suit yourself, but we're all going to give an account before God, and those who preach false doctrine are going to have a lot to lose. What scripture(s) do you use to defend your teaching?

 

[rockytopva]

Suit yourself, but we're all going to give an account before God, and those who preach false doctrine are going to have a lot to lose. What scripture(s) do you use to defend your teaching?

Jesus says that he comes as a thief in the night.

[sup]36[/sup]And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. [sup]37[/sup]Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

[sup]38[/sup]And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

[sup]39[/sup]And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

[sup]40[/sup]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.- Luke 12: 36, 37, 38,39, 40


In a time like the times of Noah...



[sup]36[/sup]But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[sup]37[/sup]But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[sup]38[/sup]For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

[sup]39[/sup]And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

[sup]40[/sup]Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

[sup]41[/sup]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

[sup]42[/sup]Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

[sup]43[/sup]But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

[sup]44[/sup]Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.- Matthew 24: 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44




We are suppose to be ready for this event at any hour on any day.

 

[TWC]

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:16-21) (Joel 2:31)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

The timeline is pretty clear.

Noah, a righteous man, knew the flood was coming and prepared accordingly. Because he prepared as God instructed him, he was protected through the flood. Had he not built that ark, he would've been destroyed, too. The Day of the Lord, like the flood, will come like a thief and take most people by surprise, but those in Christ will be like Noah and will know what is coming and what to do ahead of time.

 

[veteran]

Do you ever wonder if the reason some people are 'convicted' of pre-trib, while others post-trib, is for the very simple reason that the debates and discussions between the groups (if done in Godly acceptance of the disagreement) keeps our Lords return fresh in our minds?
Consider all the Christians out there who never give it any thought....they don't think about Jesus' return!!! What on earth are we living for if it's not the return of the King and His Kingdom?? I get we are to live for Him and for others while we are still here, but that is our ultimate hope, yeah?
So, as you said HammerStone, as long as we don't forget that it's all about Jesus, maybe the constant debating serves a purpose??
Just a thought.....

Probably a whole lot of truth in that idea.

As the time grows closer, debate over it is a good way to get His people thinking about it, and maybe, just maybe, get His people to go into His Word for themselves to understand it.

 

[veteran]

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:16-21) (Joel 2:31)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

The timeline is pretty clear.

Noah, a righteous man, knew the flood was coming and prepared accordingly. Because he prepared as God instructed him, he was protected through the flood. Had he not built that ark, he would've been destroyed, too. The Day of the Lord, like the flood, will come like a thief and take most people by surprise, but those in Christ will be like Noah and will know what is coming and what to do ahead of time.

Exactly.

There are no DIRECT statements in God's Word that prove a Pre-trib return of our Lord Jesus. But that Matthew 24 example IS a direct statement by our Lord Jesus to show His return is AFTER the tribulation He spoke of. There's no guessing with that statement, only either acceptance of it as written, or denial of it.

Also, the Biblical passages about Christ coming as a thief in the night, two women grinding at the mill with one taken and the other left, are MISUSED within Pre-trib doctrine. There are more verses in those very chapters that go along with the subject, and the Pre-trib school most often leaves those totally out.

In the Luke 17 example of two women grinding at the mill, one taken and the other left, Christ's disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" His answer to them was to wheresover the carcase (dead) is, that's where the eagles (vultures) will be gathered (Luke 17:37 and Matt.24:28).

That's about the first one taken. And that certainly is not a Message of being gathered to our Lord Jesus, but to His enemies instead. Rockytopva left that part of the Luke 17 Scripture out, which is what he's obviously been taught to do. (I'm not against you rockytopva, I just want you to question why your teachers have gotten you to leave that part of Luke 17 out).

Our Lord's Message about being taken in Luke 17 is setup in such a way that if one does not stay disciplined in His Word to read the final punchline, they'll deceive themselves. Often in God's Word, the 'key' to an important Message is given in the latter parts of the chapter. This is so especially with the Luke 17 example.


In Matthew 24, our Lord put that 'key' about being taken like a carcase (dead body) to where the eagles are gathered earlier, within the subject of an event that will cause many to be deceived...

Matt 24:21-28
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus says that in that time of the "great tribulation", IF someone comes up to you to say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", don't you believe it.

He then repeats that warning again saying, "Behold, I have told you before". If they say to you, "Behold, He is in the desert" don't go after him; or, "behold, He is in the secret chambers", do not believe it!

It's because... wheresoever the carcase (dead body) is, that's also where the vultures (eagles) will be gathered together. The "carcase" idea is solid from the Greek, no twisting it around to make it fit a good thing. The Greek word for "carcase" is always rendered as a dead body or corpse. That's how we know our Lord Jesus meant symbolic vultures and not eagles, because eagles don't go after what is already dead. But vultures do, because they are scavengers.

THEN, right after that verse, our Lord Jesus gave this...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

Because our Lord Jesus gave that gathering of His saints event AFTER that tribulation, there is no way to move that event to prior to the tribulation, for there is only ONE time of the gathering of Christ's elect to Him, not several.

 

[Joshua David]

Exactly.

There are no DIRECT statements in God's Word that prove a Pre-trib return of our Lord Jesus. But that Matthew 24 example IS a direct statement by our Lord Jesus to show His return is AFTER the tribulation He spoke of. There's no guessing with that statement, only either acceptance of it as written, or denial of it.

...

Because our Lord Jesus gave that gathering of His saints event AFTER that tribulation, there is no way to move that event to prior to the tribulation, for there is only ONE time of the gathering of Christ's elect to Him, not several.

Does it help to know that there is much that we agree on. Those of us that believe in a pretribulation rapture believe that Jesus' second coming is at the end of the Tribulation. We also believe that there is a gathering at the end of the tribulation. What we disagree on is that there is only one gathering, or that the that rapture is the exact same event as the second coming. It's not. We see the rapture and the second coming as two events. So honestly when you throw up tons of scripture that 'proves' that Jesus' coming is at the end of the tribulation, you are not adding anything to the debate what so ever, because it is something that we both believe.


The problem is that most people who are 'post-tribulationist' never really debate the issue at all. What I mean by that is that they do the exact same thing that you do. Which was to throw up a bunch of scriptures that prove that Jesus Christ returns after the tribulation and think that this proves their position. Now, I have to say that most people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are not much better because they try to get in there and argue with the person, by throwing up some scriptures that 'proves' their point, when the scriptures that they are using is specifically talking about the second coming. So I can't lay the blame at the feet of all the post-tribulationist.

For example, let's say that we were arguing about our friend John. You claim that John was outside and came into the front door, then sat down and ate a sandwich. I say that he was in his bedroom then come out of his bedroom and sat down and ate a sandwich. The way most post-tribulationist will debate the issue of the timing of the rapture is that they spend 90% of their time proving that John ate a sandwich, and think that just because they can prove without a doubt that John ate a sandwich that this proves their position is the correct one. Instead of focusing on what is different in what we believe they just regurgitate the same arguments.

What sad, and I say sad because I am just as guilty of doing this as the next guy, is that most of the pretribulationist, will get into the debate and start arguing with the post tribulationist, even though they are arguing over something that they both accept as true. Then the 'debate' usually degenerates into disparaging remarks, questioning of a person's walk with God, or their bible study skills, and all other kinds of rubbish. And I have to say, I find it rare that a pre-tribulationist will condemn a post-tribulationist for their belief. I am not saying that it doesn't happen, I am just saying that, in my experience, it is rare. I find it more common for the posttribulationist to condemn the pretribualtionist. And that right there, at least in my opinion, is evidence against the Post-tribulation.

So if we are going to debate the timing of the rapture, let's focus on what is different about what each side believes. For instance, the identification of the 'Last Trump'. I am not saying that we will ever come to a conclusion, at least on this side of glory, but at least we can focus on our differences, instead of arguing about something that we both believe already.

Joshua David

 

[veteran]

Does it help to know that there is much that we agree on. Those of us that believe in a pretribulation rapture believe that Jesus' second coming is at the end of the Tribulation. We also believe that there is a gathering at the end of the tribulation. What we disagree on is that there is only one gathering, or that the that rapture is the exact same event as the second coming. It's not. We see the rapture and the second coming as two events. So honestly when you throw up tons of scripture that 'proves' that Jesus' coming is at the end of the tribulation, you are not adding anything to the debate what so ever, because it is something that we both believe.

I'm aware brother of what the Pre-trib doctrine teaches, and where it orginated (1830's Britain). The Matthew 24 Scripture does not even suggest more than one gathering of the saints to Christ, and that should be seen as a major problem with the idea that there's more than one. The original doctrine of the "secret rapture" (John Darby) held a 'secret' coming by Christ to gather His saints prior to the tribulation. The Matthew 24 example by Christ disagrees with that idea. So a debate on the topic can be narrowed down to proving or disproving a gathering prior to the tribulation. No post-tribulationalist that I know agrees with a gathering to Christ prior to the tribulation.

I'm also aware of how the Pre-trib doctrines teaches that the event of 1 Thess.4:16-17 is separate from the event in 1 Cor.15:51-54, but they are actually the same event, both taught by Apostle Paul, to two Churches, at different times. Also, in 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul reiterated to them of the timing of Christ's return and our gathering to Him as being after the working of Satan. And he warned us there of some among them that were trying to corrupt that simple understanding.

The problem is that most people who are 'post-tribulationist' never really debate the issue at all. What I mean by that is that they do the exact same thing that you do. Which was to throw up a bunch of scriptures that prove that Jesus Christ returns after the tribulation and think that this proves their position. Now, I have to say that most people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are not much better because they try to get in there and argue with the person, by throwing up some scriptures that 'proves' their point, when the scriptures that they are using is specifically talking about the second coming. So I can't lay the blame at the feet of all the post-tribulationist.

If we were debating the post-trib vs. pre-trib issue, you would have already left the debate with those ideas, instead of staying within Scripture. It's not about what man says or thinks; it's about what God's Word says and staying with in It.

For example, let's say that we were arguing about our friend John. You claim that John was outside and came into the front door, then sat down and ate a sandwich. I say that he was in his bedroom then come out of his bedroom and sat down and ate a sandwich. The way most post-tribulationist will debate the issue of the timing of the rapture is that they spend 90% of their time proving that John ate a sandwich, and think that just because they can prove without a doubt that John ate a sandwich that this proves their position is the correct one. Instead of focusing on what is different in what we believe they just regurgitate the same arguments.

No offense, but what's that got to do with the Scripture evidence? No sense in going that kind of thinking route if the object is to stay with the Scripture and allow God to speak for Himself. The correct view is what God and His Son said it is. No amount of dilly-dallying can change that. Either one accepts what He said, or they deny what He said to default to something else.

What sad, and I say sad because I am just as guilty of doing this as the next guy, is that most of the pretribulationist, will get into the debate and start arguing with the post tribulationist, even though they are arguing over something that they both accept as true. Then the 'debate' usually degenerates into disparaging remarks, questioning of a person's walk with God, or their bible study skills, and all other kinds of rubbish. And I have to say, I find it rare that a pre-tribulationist will condemn a post-tribulationist for their belief. I am not saying that it doesn't happen, I am just saying that, in my experience, it is rare. I find it more common for the posttribulationist to condemn the pretribualtionist. And that right there, at least in my opinion, is evidence against the Post-tribulation.

What you are actually suggesting, is that 'post-tribulationists' have more of a tendency to condemn 'pre-tribulationalists', and not the other way around. That's totally untrue.

And it's also an idea that completely leaves the object and tools of a debate, like The Scripture. What I've found, is that when you try to show a 'pre-tribulationist' simple direct Scripture that cannot be toyed with, like our Lord's declaration in Matthew 24 that His gathering of the saints is after the tribulation, then they get upset and begin getting personal. I even had one 'pre-tribulationalist' fellow start to strike me because of it. He showed actual hatred towards me just for showing him Scripture which countered the pre-trib idea.

So if we are going to debate the timing of the rapture, let's focus on what is different about what each side believes. For instance, the identification of the 'Last Trump'. I am not saying that we will ever come to a conclusion, at least on this side of glory, but at least we can focus on our differences, instead of arguing about something that we both believe already.

Joshua David

Focus should be on Scripture in God's Word, not just what someone 'wants' to believe. And that's really what you're suggesting, the idea of 'wanting to believe an idea' instead of simply accepting what God's Word declares on the matter regardless how it makes us feel.

 

[rockytopva]

A pre-trib argument...

[sup]1[/sup]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;- 2 Thessalonians 2: 1, 2, 3


It looks like according to this verse the rapture is pre-trib...


1. Great falling away (In the laodicean church age)

2. The son of perdition (the Antichrist - The Black horseman)




I think when we see the appearance of the Antichrist... Rapture time! I think we are currently in the time of the Laodicean church age / Black horseman as in my perspective of the times and the seasons...

My take on the ages

 

[tomwebster]

A pre-trib argument...

[sup]1[/sup]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;- 2 Thessalonians 2: 1, 2, 3


It looks like according to this verse the rapture is pre-trib...


1. Great falling away (In the laodicean church age)

2. The son of perdition (the Antichrist - The Black horseman)




I think when we see the appearance of the Antichrist... Rapture time! I think we are currently in the time of the Laodicean church age / Black horseman as in my perspective of the times and the seasons...
...

Sorry to burst your bobble but your historical take on the church age is not what is being presented in Rev 2 & 3. The Rev churches are not operating in the administration of Grace but in the administration of Judgment. They are Hebrew Assemblies.

 

[rockytopva]

Sorry to burst your bobble but your historical take on the church age is not what is being presented in Rev 2 & 3. The Rev churches are not operating in the administration of Grace but in the administration of Judgment. They are Hebrew Assemblies.

If they are Hebrew assemblies why are they called churches?

 

[aspen]

Do you ever wonder if the reason some people are 'convicted' of pre-trib, while others post-trib, is for the very simple reason that the debates and discussions between the groups (if done in Godly acceptance of the disagreement) keeps our Lords return fresh in our minds?
Consider all the Christians out there who never give it any thought....they don't think about Jesus' return!!! What on earth are we living for if it's not the return of the King and His Kingdom?? I get we are to live for Him and for others while we are still here, but that is our ultimate hope, yeah?
So, as you said HammerStone, as long as we don't forget that it's all about Jesus, maybe the constant debating serves a purpose??
Just a thought.....

I agree with Veteran on this post. I think it is a positive thing to focus on Christ's return, no matter if I agree with the subject being discussed or not.