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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by jburic09032, Feb 19, 2009.

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  1. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 23 2009, 11:39 AM)
    Ok but I am going to stick with my findings and belief in the rapture, and I would prefer if you would stop trying prove me wrong because I have made up my mind on my own from my own study.But why are we all arguing about this? Surely if we are all devote then when the time comes we will all find out whether God will take us up or whether he will come down. I believe that there are much more pressing matters that we should discuss like world poverty and things, why not have a discussion about something that matters rather than trying to convince each other of our own ways of thinking.I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I feel we are discussing a topic that has no reason as people who believe in rapture will continue to believe in rapture, and people who don't believe in rapture will probably continue to believe that.
    I was not going to get involved with this discussion and I will likely stay out of it after this comment. I believe that those of you that believe there will be a rapture will be deceived into following the imposter Christ, and will pay a terrible price for allowing yourselves to be deceived.
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 23 2009, 11:39 AM)
    Ok but I am going to stick with my findings and belief in the rapture, and I would prefer if you would stop trying prove me wrong because I have made up my mind on my own from my own study.But why are we all arguing about this? Surely if we are all devote then when the time comes we will all find out whether God will take us up or whether he will come down. I believe that there are much more pressing matters that we should discuss like world poverty and things, why not have a discussion about something that matters rather than trying to convince each other of our own ways of thinking.I am sorry if this sounds harsh but I feel we are discussing a topic that has no reason as people who believe in rapture will continue to believe in rapture, and people who don't believe in rapture will probably continue to believe that.
    Why are we arguing this? Because it is a battle between Lord Jesus Christ and Satan the Devil. People who believes God and the "Rapture" and people who believes God and not the "Rapture" clearly contradict each other. All you have is a 50/50 chance of getting it right.I for one, believe ALL scriptures can never contradict each other. It is impossible to say with 100% confidence that God can say "There is a Rapture" to one group and "There is no Rapture" to another group. God can only be found in the book. (Bible) Not a single scripture, not a chapter and not in the book (like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Genesis etc. God is found in the WHOLE Bible.Psalm 40:7 - Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,Hebrews 10:7 - Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
     
  3. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 23 2009, 12:04 PM)
    I was not going to get involved with this discussion and I will likely stay out of it after this comment. I believe that those of you that believe there will be a rapture will be deceived into following the imposter Christ, and will pay a terrible price for allowing yourselves to be deceived.
    Why would those that believe in the rapture be decieved? Where does it say ..."if you believe in the rapture, you are decieved/condemned etc.?
     
  4. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 23 2009, 12:14 PM)
    Why would those that believe in the rapture be decieved? Where does it say ..."if you believe in the rapture, you are decieved/condemned etc.?
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Read it and weep! I am not going to be drawn into this debate. I don't care what you do. I can't change your mind
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    QUOTE (shepherdsword @ Feb 22 2009, 09:22 PM)
    Where did I mention "rapture"? I believe in a SECOND coming(not a third) where Jesus calls us into the air and we circle the entire globe and every eye sees him. One that victory progression takes place Jesus then land on earth bring us with him. This postion is the only one that accounts for all the prophecies concerning his second coming. Chris you are also making a direct statement without dealing with the definitions I presented for the words "taken" and "left"If the greek words for "taken" mean to "receive by intimate action" and the word for "left" means to be "forsaken" how can your interpretation possibly be true?
    God says he sends the reapers the fallen Angels to gather the tares first..... and yes there are two coming at the End the 7th trump just as we are told .... We are to wait you are takeing a diffention of a couple words over the context of the parable I for one will be glad to be forsaken by the reapers as I dont have an intimate relationship with Antichrist (Satan or his locust army)God says stay working in the field (World) the tares are gathered first that is the parable ...
     
  6. Nivleos

    Nivleos New Member

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    I still think it is pointless discussing something that doesn't matter.If we are devote we shall find out whether there is a rapture or there isn't a rapture, God will decide who he protects from what, saying that there is a rapture or there isn't a rapture is pointless because in the end it is God who chooses who goes where, afterall 'no man will be left behind who believes in Jesus'.If there is a rapture and you don't believe in it then God won't care if you don't believe in the rapture he will still take you as a man of God, as a Christian.Likewise if there is no rapture and you believe there is God won't care if you do believe in the rapture he will still protect you on earth as men of God, as Christians.
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (Nivleos @ Feb 23 2009, 12:25 PM)
    I still think it is pointless discussing something that doesn't matter.If we are devote we shall find out whether there is a rapture or there isn't a rapture, God will decide who he protects from what, saying that there is a rapture or there isn't a rapture is pointless because in the end it is God who chooses who goes where, afterall 'no man will be left behind who believes in Jesus'.If there is a rapture and you don't believe in it then God won't care if you don't believe in the rapture he will still take you as a man of God, as a Christian.Likewise if there is no rapture and you believe there is God won't care if you do believe in the rapture he will still protect you on earth as men of God, as Christians.
    Well that is your choice and your free will to believe that Nivleos. However it does matter to me because who in their right mind wants to follow Satan? It does matter to me if I have my very soul to follow Satan and then die and never exist again for eternity. I would not be remembered by anyone at all. It does matter to me, because I care for the souls that God created.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 23 2009, 06:03 AM)
    I have been down this road to many times with you Christina....so you can believe as you wish. If you believe you have helped me all you can..so be it. Someone else might be able with scriptures to show what I posted is wrong.Seems like there is a lot of assumption about the Last trumpet being the 7th trumpet......"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) But do we know all we need to know about the trumpets...before we make that assumption.Throughout history, armies have used trumpets to signal "Advance," "Retreat," "Commence Firing," "Cease Firing," "Assemble," "Recall," and so on. The ancient Jews also used trumpets in battle and for assembling.(Numbers 10:1-9) (Judges 6:33-35) (2 Samuel 2:26-28) (2 Samuel 18:16) (2 Samuel 20:22) Trumpets were also used by the Jews for rejoicing and praising the Lord, as in the Feast of Tabernacles and the Feast of Trumpets: "Every morning of the feast [of Tabernacles] there was a joyous procession to the Pool of Siloam, with music, headed by a priest with a golden pitcher (a little over 2 pints). At the same time there was a procession to the Kidron Valley to collect willow branches which were made into a canopy over the altar of burnt offerings. As the sacrifice proceeded, the priest returning with the water entered through the Water Gate (named for this event). With a threefold trumpet blast he poured the water into a silver receptacle on the altar. ... At the end of the first day of Tabernacles, the worshippers congregated in the Court of Women where a great illumination took place. Four huge golden lamps or candelabras, each with four golden bowls were filled with oil by four youths of priestly descent. They had to use four ladders for this task. According to the saying, "There was not a court in Jerusalem that was not lit up by it". Around the lamps a sacred dance was conducted by hassidim (saints) and prominent leaders with flaming torches in their hands. This was accompanied by Levites playing harps, lutes, cymbals, trumpets and "instruments without number" standing on the fifteen steps leading up from the Court of Women to the Court of Israel, according to the "songs of Degrees" in Psalms." (Sukkot - the Feast of Tabernacles , emphasis added) ""Say to the Israelites: 'On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts [the Feast of Trumpets]. Do no regular work, but present an offering made to the LORD by fire.'" The LORD said to Moses, "The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the LORD by fire."" (Leviticus 23:24-27) "Also at your times of rejoicing--your appointed feasts and New Moon festivals--you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the LORD your God." (Numbers 10:10) As we can see, the first-century Romans and Jews used trumpet blasts for a variety of purposes. When the apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Thessalonica, he described the Rapture in this way: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) Bible scholars and teachers have pointed out the "military" nature of Paul's description (above). Notice that there will be a loud command, then there will be the voice of the archangel, then there will be a trumpet call, and then all Christians will rise to meet the Lord in the air. The "military" analogy here is that the General gives a command during the battle (such as the command to "Recall" or to "Assemble"), then the command is repeated by an officer, then the bugler blows the signal (a specific series of notes), then the troops respond to the signal by assembling back to camp, or by returning home (as in 2 Samuel 20:22, above), or whatever the command may have been. One question to keep in mind while I am sharing information about the trumpets...Did the Thessalonians or Corinthians understand the 7th trumpet in Revelations at this time. Rev. was written later, wasn't it?
    Yeah thats another good excuse for you THE FACT IS God gave John a Revelation of the Events of the End the other books give details od this revealing I doubt God in writing his inspired Word to us expected us to know the dates of which books were written When its a Book with a Begining and an End and they are the book ends of his plan ..he knew the plot and the Ending all along he didnt just suddenly decide to make this the Ending it all supports All revelations The same thing is written in the Old Testament if youy know how to find it and it was written before the New Testament So how do explain that. And yes we have been through this before your right about that ..because you talk in circles you never go anywhere I get dizzy on your merry-go-round You can find outside support for anything that fact is the bible and Rev. the revealing of the End where your Father tells you the events of the End gives you 7 trumps and Christ returns at the last one as we are told. its very simply laid out in a straight line with a series of events but your so busy running in circles you cant see where they start and where they End ..... And you are happy doing so ... it is fine by meI have done my part in Gods eyes I have told you the truth of his Word you dont want to hear it thats on your head not mine ..
     
  9. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 23 2009, 12:19 PM)
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Read it and weep! I am not going to be drawn into this debate. I don't care what you do. I can't change your mind
    I posted in #84 how I see 2 Thess 2:3-5...If you will notice verse one says ..."(1)by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND (2)our gathering together unto him"Then in verse 3 it mentions just one... that day(coming of our Lord Jesus Christ). I agree that the (coming)day of the Lord will not come until the man of perdition is revealed. So you are saying the day of the Lord happens the same as the gathering together?
     
  10. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 23 2009, 12:34 PM)
    Yeah thats another good excuse for you THE FACT IS God gave John a Revelation of the Events of the End the other books give details od this revealing I doubt God in writing his inspired Word to us expected us to know the dates of which books were written When its a Book with a Begining and an End and they are the book ends of his plan ..he knew the plot and the Ending all along he didnt just suddenly decide to make this the Ending it all supports All revelations The same thing is written in the Old Testament if youy know how to find it and it was written before the New Testament So how do explain that.
    God knows....but did the Corinthians...I still say since the book of Revelation (which describes the Trumpet Judgments) was written decades after Paul told the Corinthians that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet," this means that the original readers of 1 Corinthians could not have associated "the last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 with the Trumpet Judgments in the book of Revelation. In other words, the Corinthians had never heard of the Trumpet Judgments when Paul wrote to them that the Rapture will happen at the last trumpet. If we claim that the apostle Paul must have known about the Trumpet Judgments, and that he must have told the Corinthians about those judgments, then this would be nothing more than a guess. There is no evidence in the Bible to support this guess. In fact, the apostle Paul specifically told the Corinthians that "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (1 Corinthians 13:9), which means that Paul did not have full knowledge or full revelation of end-times prophecies. Remember, when Paul wrote to the Corinthians and told them that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet," he did not explain what "the last trumpet" will be. Since Paul didn't feel that it was necessary to explain this, then either he had already said something to the Corinthians about it, or else he was referring to something which they were already familiar with. Yet there is no evidence that they had ever heard of the Trumpet Judgments when the book of 1 Corinthians was written, because the book of Revelation was still decades away from being written.
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 23 2009, 01:04 PM)
    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 23 2009, 12:34 PM)
    Yeah thats another good excuse for you THE FACT IS God gave John a Revelation of the Events of the End the other books give details od this revealing I doubt God in writing his inspired Word to us expected us to know the dates of which books were written When its a Book with a Begining and an End and they are the book ends of his plan ..he knew the plot and the Ending all along he didnt just suddenly decide to make this the Ending it all supports All revelations The same thing is written in the Old Testament if youy know how to find it and it was written before the New Testament So how do explain that. ...
    God knows....but did the Corinthians...I still say since the book of Revelation (which describes the Trumpet Judgments) was written decades after Paul told the Corinthians that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet," this means that the original readers of 1 Corinthians could not have associated "the last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 with the Trumpet Judgments in the book of Revelation. In other words, the Corinthians had never heard of the Trumpet Judgments when Paul wrote to them that the Rapture will happen at the last trumpet. If we claim that the apostle Paul must have known about the Trumpet Judgments, and that he must have told the Corinthians about those judgments, then this would be nothing more than a guess. There is no evidence in the Bible to support this guess. In fact, the apostle Paul specifically told the Corinthians that "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (1 Corinthians 13:9), which means that Paul did not have full knowledge or full revelation of end-times prophecies. Remember, when Paul wrote to the Corinthians and told them that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet," he did not explain what "the last trumpet" will be. Since Paul didn't feel that it was necessary to explain this, then either he had already said something to the Corinthians about it, or else he was referring to something which they were already familiar with. Yet there is no evidence that they had ever heard of the Trumpet Judgments when the book of 1 Corinthians was written, because the book of Revelation was still decades away from being written.Bull, you are just making a gateway excuse to mislead more souls. If Paul did not have the full knowledge of God... He would not talk about the Second Coming. So therefore He did have to explain the Second Coming of Christ (Not the Rapture) in pure details. In fact, Paul even met Christ after he murdered Christians in ignorant... He is very much knowledgeable in the OT... and did have the knowledge of the NT after He met Christ, then was blinded til he arrived at Damascus and became one of the greatest apostle of Christ. So yes he went into the trouble explaining the great details about His coming.Lastly, it doesn't matter if Paul wrote Corinthians and John wrote Revelation decades later... The fact is I Corinthians, II Corinthians and Revelation does not at all contradict each other... but in your head, setfree, you want it to contradict each other to suit your wicked ways. You want to believe in men? Fine by me, we are sick anyway with your merry-go-round games.
     
  12. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 23 2009, 01:26 PM)
    Bull, you are just making a gateway excuse to mislead more souls. If Paul did not have the full knowledge of God... He would not talk about the Second Coming. So therefore He did have to explain the Second Coming of Christ (Not the Rapture) in pure details. In fact, Paul even met Christ after he murdered Christians in ignorant... He is very much knowledgeable in the OT... and did have the knowledge of the NT after He met Christ, then was blinded til he arrived at Damascus and became one of the greatest apostle of Christ. So yes he went into the trouble explaining the great details about His coming.Lastly, it doesn't matter if Paul wrote Corinthians and John wrote Revelation decades later... The fact is I Corinthians, II Corinthians and Revelation does not at all contradict each other... but in your head, setfree, you want it to contradict each other to suit your wicked ways. You want to believe in men? Fine by me, we are sick anyway with your merry-go-round games.
    Temper! Temper! Paul said we know in part, not me! We see through a glass dimly!Since I believe the apostle Paul did not feel that it was necessary to explain what he meant by "the last trumpet," there is another possibility that we should consider. As I mentioned in anoter post there are trumpet blasts associated with some of the Jewish festivals which God had commanded. God has plans and purposes for the things that He does, and many Bible scholars and teachers have described the prophetic significance of the seven holy Festivals which God had commanded the Jews to observe (see Leviticus 23). For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Paul reminded the Corinthians of how Christ's sacrifice is associated with Israel's Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 Paul reminded the Corinthians of how Christ's resurrection is associated with Israel's Feast of Firstfruits: "Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8) "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." (1 Corinthians 15:20-23) Notice that Paul did not actually explain anything to the Corinthians about these Jewish Feasts in the above passages, which indicates that the Corinthians were already aware of the significance of Israel's Feasts. In a similar way, the Rapture may be associated with Israel's Feast of Trumpets in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52: "I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:50-52) For example, here is how one Jewish Christian scholar explains it: "The "last trump" refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets at this feast each year. During the ceremony, there is a series of short trumpet blasts of various lengths, concluding with the longest blast of all, called the tekiah gedolah: the great, or "last trump." Judaism connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead, and so does Paul. So, Paul's point here is that the Rapture will be the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets." (A Review of The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, p.58. See also Maranatha Our Lord, Come, Dr. Renald Showers, p.264). The seven years of the Tribulation will fulfill Daniel's "70 Weeks" prophecy and will complete Israel's atonement for their sins. Dr. Fruchtenbaum (quoted above) points out that Israel's Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:27-28) will "be fulfilled by the seven years of Tribulation" (p.58). Since the Feast of Trumpets takes place before the Day of Atonement on the Jewish calendar (Leviticus 23:24-27), and since the Rapture might be the prophetic fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets (1 Corinthians 15:51-52), this is possibly further evidence that the Rapture will take place before the seven-year Tribulation begins.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 23 2009, 11:04 AM)
    God knows....but did the Corinthians...I still say since the book of Revelation (which describes the Trumpet Judgments) was written decades after Paul told the Corinthians that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet," this means that the original readers of 1 Corinthians could not have associated "the last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 with the Trumpet Judgments in the book of Revelation. In other words, the Corinthians had never heard of the Trumpet Judgments when Paul wrote to them that the Rapture will happen at the last trumpet. If we claim that the apostle Paul must have known about the Trumpet Judgments, and that he must have told the Corinthians about those judgments, then this would be nothing more than a guess. There is no evidence in the Bible to support this guess. In fact, the apostle Paul specifically told the Corinthians that "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (1 Corinthians 13:9), which means that Paul did not have full knowledge or full revelation of end-times prophecies. Remember, when Paul wrote to the Corinthians and told them that the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet," he did not explain what "the last trumpet" will be. Since Paul didn't feel that it was necessary to explain this, then either he had already said something to the Corinthians about it, or else he was referring to something which they were already familiar with. Yet there is no evidence that they had ever heard of the Trumpet Judgments when the book of 1 Corinthians was written, because the book of Revelation was still decades away from being written.
    LOL.... all the Word is inspired by God and is accurate ...What would you call call God a liar ?? The corinthians didnt write the book. Did you not Read of John the revelator he was taken to the future and he's looking back describing the sequence of events the revealing ... Amazing you never ask the right questions of yourself or men but you ve no problem questioning the Word of God when it doesnt agree with men ..... circles upon circles upon circles
     
  14. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Feb 23 2009, 02:17 PM)
    LOL.... all the Word is inspired by God and is accurate ...What would you call call God a liar ?? The corinthians didnt write the book. Did you not Read of John the revelator he was taken to the future and he's looking back describing the sequence of events the revealing ... Amazing you never ask the right questions of yourself or men but you ve no problem questioning the Word of God when it doesnt agree with men ..... circles upon circles upon circles
    It is not that I do not ask the right questions...it is that you read in to my post things that are not there.Where did I question that the Word of God is not inspired? Where did I call God a liar? I did not say the Corinthians wrote the book!Yes! I know John wrote revelations of future events!I stated that the Corinthians did not know of what John wrote, because John wrote Rev. later. They would understand the feast of trumpets, but not the judgement trumpets.Again..."The last trumpet," can mean "the last blast in a series of trumpet blasts," and recall that there will be a series of seven Trumpet Judgments during the Tribulation. Therefore, some people believe that the Rapture will happen at the seventh Trumpet Judgment, because it will be "the last trumpet" in that series. Post-tribbers believe that the Rapture will happen as Jesus is descending to the earth at the Second Coming, and since the Rapture will happen "at the last trumpet" (according to the apostle Paul), post-tribbers tend to argue that the Second Coming and the Rapture will happen at the seventh Trumpet Judgment. In order for that interpretation to work, post-tribbers have to argue that the seven Seal Judgments will take place during the same time period as the seven Trumpet Judgments, and during the same time period as the seven Bowl Judgments. In other words, post-tribbers must argue that those three sets of judgments are actually three different perspectives on the same period of time, because that is the only way in which the seventh Trumpet Judgment can be a possible timeframe for the Second Coming. The problem is that those 21 judgments will take place consecutively, one after the other. This means that after the seventh trumpet is sounded, there will still be seven Bowl Judgments which need to be carried out before the Second Coming will take place. Therefore, the Second Coming will not happen at the seventh Trumpet Judgment, so this post-trib view is in error. For more evidence that this post-trib view is in error, recall that trumpet blasts had many different purposes in the first century. For example, here are some trumpet blasts for the purpose of gathering people together: "On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain." (Exodus 19:16-17) "To gather the assembly, blow the trumpets, but not with the same signal." (Numbers 10:7) Here are some trumpet blasts when going into battle against an enemy:(Numbers 10:9) (Zephaniah 1:14-17) So one purpose for trumpet blasts was to gather people to an assembly, and another purpose was for doing battle against an enemy.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    That doesnt even make sense the corinthians didnt right the Book ... Gods knowlege inspired the Whole Book Start to finish God says the last trump all we will be changed what difference does it make what the Corinthians thought God says the LAST then when he gave John the revelation he numbered them 1 to 7 the last being 7 Gods Wrath (upon evil though you seem to think its on everyone so you must be raptured away first) .... Only those of little faith would even think this ... And as I have said a 100 times all those following the first christ into Rapture or whatever have nothing to be worried about or scared of Satan will not hurt you for worshipping him he will love you for it and the true Christ wont be here so no Rapture necessary you'll be doing dandy until the LAST and 7th trump ... then you will need saving unfortunately God wont be saving you ....and your fake christ cant save you ..uh oh
     
  16. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.Matthew 24:29-51 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.Mark 13:24-37 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.#2 1st Thess 4:15-17 and 1st cor 15:20-23 say that the resurrection of the just/rapture is at the 2nd coming.1st Thessalonians 4:15-1715 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.1st Corinthians 15:20-2320 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they they are Christ at his coming.#3 1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump but matt 24:29-31 says that there is a trump sounded after the tribulation, the rapture can not be b4 this trump therefore can not be until after the trib is over.1st Corinthians 15:51-5351 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.#4 Luke 17:26-30 says that the same day we are taken out is the same day Jesus returns to destroy the wicked (which he does at the end of the trib not the start) this is confirmed in 2nd thess 1:6-10.Luke 17:26-37 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.2nd Thessalonians 1:6-106 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.#5 John 6:39,40,44,and 54 all say Jesus said that he would raise us up at the last day (not 7yrs b4 ).John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 5439 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.#6 Rev 20 :4-6 says that the 1st resurrection is after the trib we know this because it includes tribulational martyrs as well as others that refuse to worship the beast or take his mark during the trib.There can be no resurrection of dead saints at a pretrib rapture b4 the 1st resurrection.Revelation 20:4-15 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Therefore the pretrib rapture as well as the mid trib is biblicaly impossible.
     
  17. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Again, Christina, I have been here before with you on other subjects we do not agree on...but you have yet to take my post and show me where I am wrong. You add things that I do not say, like post #112. In my post when I do not agree with you I post why, with scriptures.....Now, look at the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) and the Trumpet Judgments (Revelation 9:1-4, 12-15, 20-21) in light of these different purposes for trumpet blasts: I would like to show that at the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) and the Trumpet Judgments (Revelation 9:1-4, 12-15, 20-21) in light of these different purposes for trumpet blasts: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. ... The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come. The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. ... The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts." (Revelation 9:1-4, 12-15, 20-21) Remember that at the Rapture, all Christians (living and dead) will be gathered to an assembly "at the last trumpet" where we will meet the Lord in the air. In contrast, the Trumpet Judgments in the book of Revelation are for the purpose of doing battle against the kingdom of the invader (the devil) who is occupying the earth. Therefore, the trumpet which will be sounded at the Rapture has a different purpose than the trumpets which will be sounded during the Tribulation (the Trumpet Judgments). This means that the trumpet which Paul mentioned in his description of the Rapture is not the same as any of the trumpets that John described in the book of Revelation, which is another reason why the Rapture won't happen at the seventh Trumpet Judgment. Once again, the Scriptural evidence disproves the post-trib view, and the evidence supports the pre-trib view. QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 23 2009, 03:29 PM)
    6 points that prove post trib rapture (scripture included)#1 Matt 24:29-31 and mark 13:24-27 say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation and that there is a gathering of the elect at that time.Matthew 24:29-51 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.Mark 13:24-37 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
    I will have to address these one at a time...(Matthew 24:29-31) In the above passage (and in the parallel passage at Mark 13:24-27) we see a "trumpet" and a "gathering" of the "elect," which sounds very similar to the apostle Paul's description of the Rapture which we have already examined: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) On the surface, it appears as if Jesus was describing the Second Coming and then a post-trib Rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 (above). But when we look closer at the above two passages, there are some significant differences between Jesus' description and the apostle Paul's description. For example, Paul described a resurrection at the Rapture, but Jesus did not describe a resurrection or a change from mortality to immortality. Paul said that we will be gathered to meet the Lord, but Jesus did not say anything about "the elect" being gathered to meet Him. Paul said that we will meet the Lord in the air, but Jesus did not say that "the elect" will be lifted up into the air. Was Jesus really referring to the Rapture in Matthew 24:29-31? In order to answer this question, let's first try to determine who "the elect" are in Matthew 24:29-31 (above).
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Let me see if I can be clear for you setfree 1. You do not listen to anything I say or anyone else that disagrees with your opinion2. I dont care to continue you to show you where you are wrong when you wont listen anyway 3.I have shown you the truth a 1000 times either you wont or God hasn't allowed you to see it 4. Im not getting on your merry-go-round again you are going to believe what you believe its not my job nor do I really care what you believe. Ive done my Job in Gods eyes .....your the one lacking to do yours ..that is hear your Father 5.. there is no Pre-Trib Rapture in scripture Christ is coming once at the 7th trump the last trump period thats why he told you that. THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE IS MANS WORD NOT GODS NOTHING YOU CAN EVER EVER EVER EVER SAY IS GOING TO MAKE IT GOD WORD ITS A MADE UP DOCTRINE A RELIGION OF MEN Im not interested in your twisting,squirming,circles, whatever you have to do to get back to where you started if you want to know the truth it is written in his word in my posts, in others posts, in all the posts in NO Rapture thread ..I just posted a basic layout of events ... you have all the information you need all the answers you need at your finger tipsThe fact is they are not the answers you wanna hear that doesnt mean they are not there 6. I will never satisfy you because I will never follow men ......... You dont seem to comprehend the fact that God says he will return once at the End and that Antichrist (Satan) comes first so many times in so many way in both the old testament and the New testament that even if and thats a big if you could disprove a single verse we disagree on it would never matter because its said so many times so many ways that you would still be wrong .................. It just an endless argument with me thats all you care about trying to prove Im wrong even it means defying God ........... You could care less what scripture I show you you will argue that scripture around in circles untill I show you the next one and it goes on on and never once does it ever occur to you that he said so many ways because its the truth................ he only comes once at the End the 7th trump I could tell you he showed us in symbolism with Noah on the Ark ..that it was symbolic that he sent the Raven (the black bird) representing Satan/evil out into the World first ............before he sent out the Dove a symbol of Christ/ holy spirit showing us the truth of both comings Satan/sin then Christ it was true the first time its true the second time .. Antchrist comes before Jesus Christ but you would argure I could show you in Eze, or Dan but you would argue I could show you in 1 cor. Mat Mark Rev but you would argue So yes setfree if its your decision that whole message being taught us over and over in Gods Words, his symbols his plan is wrong and a Theory of men dreamed up by some young pitful girl is right... I say fine by me ..... Your soul not mine ......... I say again Ive done my Job in my Fathers eyes ......
     
  19. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Christina, I do read every post! and as far as you not showing where I am wrong...Well, At least I know where your heart is. So until God convicts me...Even if we do not see eye to eye on scriptures, that is fine. I do not hold any ill will toward anyone. I am just sharing what I was taught.QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 23 2009, 03:46 PM)
    In order to answer this question, let's first try to determine who "the elect" are in Matthew 24:29-31 (above).
    Here are some ways that the word "elect" is used in the Bible: "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth." (Isaiah 42:1-3, KJV) "Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame." (1 Peter 2:6, KJV) "I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism." (1 Timothy 5:21) "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." (Isaiah 45:4, KJV) "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye." (Colossians 3:12-13, KJV) "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (1 Peter 1:1, ASV) We can see from these passages that Jesus is called "elect" (Isaiah 42:1-3, 1 Peter 2:6), the holy angels are called "elect" (1 Timothy 5:21), Israel is called "elect" (Isaiah 45:4), the Church is called "elect" (Colossians 3:12-13), and Jewish Christians (literally the "sojourners of the Dispersion," referring to the Jews who had been scattered to the nations of the world after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) are called "elect" (1 Peter 1:1). Since the word "elect" has different meanings depending on the context, we can't simply assume that "the elect" in Matthew 24:29-31 is a reference to the Church. According to the above passages, the "elect" might be Jesus, or the holy angels, or Israel, or the Church, or saved Jews. Notice that in Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus said that He will send His angels to gather the "elect," which means that Jesus is not the "elect." And since the holy angels will be gathering the "elect" in some way, this means that the holy angels cannot be the "elect." So the "elect" in Matthew 24:29-31 is either Israel, or the Church, or saved Jews. Since saved Jews are automatically members of the Church (along with saved Gentiles) at the present time, this narrows our choices down to Israel or the Church.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    MY JOB IS TO SHOW GODS SCRIPTURE AND THE TRUTH THEY SAY ................I HAVE DONE THIS ............YOUR JOB IS TO HEAR THEM ..................MY JOBS DONE .................YOURS IS NOT ................... YOU HEAR MEN OR YOU WOULD HEAR GOD ............TILL YOU STOP HEARING MEN ........GOD WORDS FALL ON DEAF EARS .......THERE IS NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IN THE WORDS OF YOUR FATHER .I CAN NOT SHOW YOU WHAT IS NOT THERE THERE IS ONLY THE EVENTS OF HIS SECOND COMING AT THE LAST AND 7TH TRUMP A FACT YOU DO NOT ACCEPT SO THERE IS NOTHING TO DEBATE HERE GODS WORD NOT GODS WORD ITS THAT SIMPLE http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?showtopic=10394I could tell you he showed us in symbolism with Noah on the Ark ..that it was symbolic that he sent the Raven (the black bird) representing Satan/evil out into the World first ............before he sent out the Dove a symbol of Christ/ holy spirit showing us the truth of both comings Satan/sin then Christ it was true the first time its true the second time .. Antchrist comes before Jesus Christ but you would argure YOU CAN NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND A LITERAL BLACK AND WHITE PICTURE WHEN GOD PUTS IT IN FRONT OF YOU WHAT COULD I POSSIBLY SAY THATS ANY CLEARER THAN THAT
     
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