The Religion Box

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So what is wrong with all? Just that Jesus demands all from you? Is that it?

Apart from the cross all becomes an idol. Look at the muslims and those in other religions who give all. They idolize their own 'obedience'.

It is not about us giving all. It is about the cross doing all its work in us. It is about us resting in all Jesus did, and trusting that he will accomplish his promise to save us. So really obedience is the process of receiving all by letting the cross do all its work in us. That requires relinquishing our will, efforts, understanding, etc.

 

[Episkopos]

Apart from the cross all becomes an idol. Look at the muslims and those in other religions who give all. They idolize their own 'obedience'.

It is not about us giving all. It is about the cross doing all its work in us. It is about us resting in all Jesus did, and trusting that he will accomplish his promise to save us. So really obedience is the process of receiving all by letting the cross do all its work in us. That requires relinquishing our will, efforts, understanding, etc.

Are you saying that Other religions give more than Christians?

Who can give more than all?

When we give our lives to Christ holding nothing back...then He performs HIS ALL for us. No other religion has this promise.

 

[williemac]

Are you saying that Other religions give more than Christians?

Who can give more than all?

When we give our lives to Christ holding nothing back...then He performs HIS ALL for us. No other religion has this promise.

Speaking in abstract terms....re: give all, hold nothing back. Please translate these terms for us, if you will. As well, relate how these terms are connected with our justification, if in fact you think they are. Thanks.

between the 2 extremes as you say is the bearing of bad fruit...good intentions notwithstanding.



Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Jesus will spew many into outer darkness because the were lawless. They had a belief (which they thought saved them) but no fruit of a genuine nature.

The Lukewarm church, as I explained a few times already in recent threads, were missing the indwelling presence of Jesus. This is what made them lukewarm, neither hot nor cold. It was their belief in Him but with the absence of relationship through His indwelling presence. Please use the context to interpret itself. This is the appropriate method of bible understanding. As well, we overcome by our faith (1John5:4), and by the word of our testimony (Rev.12:11). Our testimony, not our works. Our faith, not our works.

 

[Episkopos]

Speaking in abstract terms....re: give all, hold nothing back. Please translate these terms for us, if you will. As well, relate how these terms are connected with our justification, if in fact you think they are. Thanks.

Why would God accept people who give less than all seeing that people give their all for things that are false. Does God desire LESS consecration than idolators give to their idols? If you think so please explain and give biblical references...

The Lukewarm church, as I explained a few times already in recent threads, were missing the indwelling presence of Jesus. This is what made them lukewarm, neither hot nor cold. It was their belief in Him but with the absence of relationship through His indwelling presence. Please use the context to interpret itself. This is the appropriate method of bible understanding. As well, we overcome by our faith (1John5:4), and by the word of our testimony (Rev.12:11). Our testimony, not our works. Our faith, not our works.

The actual indwelling presence produces fruit in the actual human being. We will be judged by our deeds. So we have the advantage, if indeed we are indwelt, of being judged for what God is doing through us. ! What a priviledge!!!

The Laodiceans had turned aside to the kind of fantasy that most posters here indulge in. Obedience to God in Christ is now seen as "works" based. The world has been turned upside down...at least in logic!

 

[Levi]

Obedience to God in Christ is now seen as "works" based.

You hit the nail on the head right here, if we are obedient to Christ, people see this as somehow saving ourselves.

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

If God commanded us to give to the poor - as He has already commanded - we obey!!

James 2:20 How foolish! Can't you see that faith without good deeds is useless?

 

[Episkopos]

You hit the nail on the head right here, if we are obedient to Christ, people see this as somehow saving ourselves.

1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

If God commanded us to give to the poor - as He has already commanded - we obey!!

James 2:20 How foolish! Can't you see that faith without good deeds is useless?

Exactly! But people are willing to throw children under the bus if they think that will save them. Who are these people?

 

[Levi]

Exactly! But people are willing to throw children under the bus if they think that will save them. Who are these people?

What? You lost me.

 

[Episkopos]

What? You lost me.

People are willing to do terrible injustices to the word in order to include themselves in the promises of God.

 

[Levi]

People are willing to do terrible injustices to the word in order to include themselves in the promises of God.

Let's say a person only understood or even believed 85% of the Bible but they loved perfectly........would his love trump his misunderstanding?

 

[Episkopos]

Let's say a person only understood or even believed 85% of the Bible but they loved perfectly........would his love trump his misunderstanding?

Of course! We don't fill out a questionnaire to enter the kingdom. We are judged by our doings and our words.

 

[Levi]

Of course! We don't fill out a questionnaire to enter the kingdom. We are judged by our doings and our words.

I never really got that, and I know which scripture you are referring to, but if we repent of bad doings, He sees them no more and all He would see is our good doings - or at least what He tells us to do and we do them - these would be judged by Him as good and obedient. If this were the case, everyone who repented would be judged and be seen has having good works.

 

[Episkopos]

I never really got that, and I know which scripture you are referring to, but if we repent of bad doings, He sees them no more and all He would see is our good doings - or at least what He tells us to do and we do them - these would be judged by Him as good and obedient. If this were the case, everyone who repented would be judged and be seen has having good works.

Righteousness begins with honesty. How many Christians are taught (or untaught) to think that honesty must be left behind in order to take hold of "eternal truths"?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Laodiceans had turned aside to the kind of fantasy that most posters here indulge in. Obedience to God in Christ is now seen as "works" based. The world has been turned upside down...at least in logic!

That's not what the Laodiceans sin was at all. They were secure in themselves, and in their wealth and in their standing among men. If anything they were the types who do works in order to be praised of men.

 

[Episkopos]

That's not what the Laodiceans sin was at all. They were secure in themselves, and in their wealth and in their standing among men. If anything they were the types who do works in order to be praised of men.

Are you saying they never attended a church? How did they justify their conduct?

 

[Levi]

Righteousness begins with honesty. How many Christians are taught (or untaught) to think that honesty must be left behind in order to take hold of "eternal truths"?

I suppose it's whatever makes one "feel good".

On the other hand, if a person doesn't realize they are deluded, then they won't know they've accepted a lie for the truth.

 

[Episkopos]

I suppose it's whatever makes one "feel good".

On the other hand, if a person doesn't realize they are deluded, then they won't know they've accepted a lie for the truth.

But if one is open to correction then for that one there is yet hope!

 

[Levi]

That's not what the Laodiceans sin was at all. They were secure in themselves, and in their wealth and in their standing among men. If anything they were the types who do works in order to be praised of men.

That's not what the Laodiceans sin was at all. They were secure in themselves, and in their wealth and in their standing among men. If anything they were the types who do works in order to be praised of men.

They were neither hot nor cold, it is what James 4:17 says - if anyone knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is a sin for them.

But if one is open to correction then for that one there is yet hope!

But they don't know they need correction - how do they know if it is all they have learned!

 

[Episkopos]

But they don't know they need correction - how do they know if it is all they have learned!

That's the tragedy and the impetus to teach the truth even on these forums! :)

 

[williemac]

Why would God accept people who give less than all seeing that people give their all for things that are false. Does God desire LESS consecration than idolators give to their idols? If you think so please explain and give biblical references...

God has reconciled the world to Himself through the sacrifice of His Son. What He is seeking is a humble response of acceptance of His work and His gift, leading to a relationship with Him. But I asked you first. Please explain the term "all" and give scripture references that demand this so called "all" as a requirement for life. All what? What does "all" look like? Where in the bible does our consecration fit into the free gift of life? Are we justified by consecration? James reminded his readers that if a person should fail on any one point of the law, he is guilty of 'all'. Is this what you are talking about? All or nothing? All or disqualified? Sounds a lot like the law to me. Sounds like a ton of pressure to perform for God.

The actual indwelling presence produces fruit in the actual human being. We will be judged by our deeds. So we have the advantage, if indeed we are indwelt, of being judged for what God is doing through us. ! What a priviledge!!!

The Laodiceans had turned aside to the kind of fantasy that most posters here indulge in. Obedience to God in Christ is now seen as "works" based. The world has been turned upside down...at least in logic!

We who are in Christ will be judged on the judgment seat of Christ for our deeds. This judgment seat is not for the determination of one's eternal destiny. All who make it to this one are saved. On the other hand, the judgment to condemnation is for those who are not in Christ by faith. As He promised in John 5:24, those who believe in Him will not come under this judgment. As the verse says, they HAVE everlasting life (present tense). If you don't accept this promise, then we have no common ground, as you have disregarded the word of Christ.

You have no biblical basis for your opinion concerning the Laodicean church. What Jesus told them is what we should stick to. The solution to their being wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked is seen in His invitation to indwell them. Without Christ in us we are blind and naked. His only recourse will be to say.." I never knew you", in which case these will be judged as workers of iniquity because their sins were never remitted. As far as logic goes, the bible is the authority. His ways are higher than our ways. Society is taught to strive to earn each other's respect, love, friendship, and devotion. Society learns and teaches that we stand by our own merit.

So, how is it that a person giving "all" is not doing it to merit life? By your description, this is what it looks like you are saying. Hey, correct me if I'm mistaken.
O, you don't label it 'works of law'. People have learned that this will never pass. So they change the wording. But in any case, as long as a person has a cause for boasting, he has gone into self righteousness and gaining life through one's own merit rather than as a free gift. How is giving one's "all" to get saved, not just another way of earning God's favor by one's own resources?

FYI, His favor is offered freely. His acceptance is offered freely (grace). There are three options. Reject the offer of life altogether, try to earn life, or take it as a free gift (by faith). There is no mixing these. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

[Episkopos]

God has reconciled the world to Himself through the sacrifice of His Son. What He is seeking is a humble response of acceptance of His work and His gift, leading to a relationship with Him. But I asked you first. Please explain the term "all" and give scripture references that demand this so called "all" as a requirement for life. All what? What does "all" look like? Where in the bible does our consecration fit into the free gift of life? Are we justified by consecration? James reminded his readers that if a person should fail on any one point of the law, he is guilty of 'all'. Is this what you are talking about? All or nothing? All or disqualified? Sounds a lot like the law to me. Sounds like a ton of pressure to perform for God.

How does this relationship work different than any other religion?

All is the amount we give in order to get anything from God. Holding nothing back!!! We have many opportunities throughout our lives to give all...but if we never do then no transaction with God has actually taken place.

As James says

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

We who are in Christ will be judged on the judgment seat of Christ for our deeds. This judgment seat is not for the determination of one's eternal destiny. All who make it to this one are saved. On the other hand, the judgment to condemnation is for those who are not in Christ by faith. As He promised in John 5:24, those who believe in Him will not come under this judgment. As the verse says, they HAVE everlasting life (present tense). If you don't accept this promise, then we have no common ground, as you have disregarded the word of Christ.

Yes...there are few who admit they will be judged by their deeds! An everlasting life is not always a life of glory and honour! You really must look into the promise of shame and dishonour to the house of God for those who did not bear the right kind of fruit.

You have no biblical basis for your opinion concerning the Laodicean church. What Jesus told them is what we should stick to. The solution to their being wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked is seen in His invitation to indwell them. Without Christ in us we are blind and naked. His only recourse will be to say.." I never knew you", in which case these will be judged as workers of iniquity because their sins were never remitted. As far as logic goes, the bible is the authority. His ways are higher than our ways. Society is taught to strive to earn each other's respect, love, friendship, and devotion. Society learns and teaches that we stand by our own merit.

Jesus was speaking (and is speaking) to the Laodicean CHURCH! That is the church time we are presently living in today. Do you know how many Christians actually spend time in the word never mind being filled with the Spirit!

So, how is it that a person giving "all" is not doing it to merit life? By your description, this is what it looks like you are saying. Hey, correct me if I'm mistaken.
O, you don't label it 'works of law'. People have learned that this will never pass. So they change the wording. But in any case, as long as a person has a cause for boasting, he has gone into self righteousness and gaining life through one's own merit rather than as a free gift. How is giving one's "all" to get saved, not just another way of earning God's favor by one's own resources?

Works of the law are circumcision sabbath keeping, kosher eating etc... We must continue to pursue the pleasure of God at all times. We were created for HIS pleasure.


Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

FYI, His favor is offered freely. His acceptance is offered freely (grace). There are three options. Reject the offer of life altogether, try to earn life, or take it as a free gift (by faith). There is no mixing these. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

But men have complicated the 3rd one by saying thanks and walking away from the truth. We are not saved in order to be saved..but for good works and to bring glory to God.

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Peace!