The Resurrection is Bodily

[Hobie]

There are many verses in the Bible on it, and we see it clearly a bodily resurrection...

Psalm 17:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Job 14:10-15 King James Version (KJV)
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job 19:25-26 King James Version
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

They are free from the sting of death, and will no longer be under its curse..

1 Corinthians 15:54-56 King James Version (KJV)
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Luke 20:35-36 King James Version (KJV)
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Proverbs 14:27 King James Version (KJV)
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

 

[Hobie]

Now if we look at what happen with Lazarus we see if even more clearly, as when Christ was speaking to His disciples, Jesus said:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, if he sleep he shall do well. Howbeit, Jesus spoke of his death; but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. John 11:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

The disciples were a bit confused and thought Christ meant natural sleep, but He meant the sleep of death.
On His arrival Jesus found that Lazarus had already been four days in the tomb. John 11:17 King James Version (KJV)

Then we see when talking with Martha, He tried to comfort her by saying,
'Thy brother shall rise again.' Martha saith unto him, 'I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.' John 11:23,24 King James Version (KJV)

Martha knew that life would be restored to Lazarus only in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus demonstrated through the resurrection of Lazarus that He was the One who could resurrect the dead according to His claim:

John 11:25 King James Version (KJV)
I am the resurrection and the life.
The Scriptures in both Old and New Testaments are very clear on this issue. Life to the dead will be restored in the resurrection on the last day, and it will be bodily.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

When the saints of God die, they lay in the grave waiting for the resurrection, not floating around on some cloud, that comes from Greek Pagan philosophy that crept into the church....

 

[Hobie]

We can see it in Greek pagan ideas...
'According to the ancient Greeks, at the time of death, the soul separates from the body and is transported to the underworld, where it is accepted into the realm by the governing god Hades, who is known to reside at the edges of the ocean and under the deepest depths of the Earth.'..Greek Mythology and Life after Death

Here is even more on this Greek ideas coming into the church..
'this belief comes from Greek philosophy, expounded especially by two of the chief Greek Philosophers: Plato and Socrates. Plato, though not the first to assert the doctrine of the immortal soul, he was definitely the most eloquent one. As Werner Jaeger of Harvard University says:

“The immortality of man was one of the foundational creeds of the philosophical religion of Platonism that was in part adopted by the Christian church” (Werner Jaeger, “The Greek ideas of immortality”, Harvard Theological Review, Volume LII, July 1959, Number 3, emphasis added ).

As The Catholic Encyclopedia (Topic: the platonic school) also informs us:

“The great majority of the Christian philosophers down to St. Augustine were Platonists.”

What did then Plato believe about the soul? Plato was a disciple of another great Greek philosopher, Socrates. Plato’s work “Phaedo” is a dialogue which depicts the death of Socrates. The dialogue supposedly took place on the last day of Socrates, before being executed by drinking hemlock. As Wikipedia says: “one of the main themes in the Phaedo is the idea that the soul is immortal”. We could consider “Phaedo” a work that gives the combined beliefs of Plato and Socrates, the two greatest Greek philosophers on the matter. Here are some passages from this work (Taken from the following website: The Internet Classics Archive | Phaedo by Plato ):

“The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intelligible, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable …. It goes away to the pure, and eternal, and immortal, and unchangeable, to which she is kin." (Phaedo)

And again:

“The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible ... Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body." (emphasis added)

Furthermore:

“Be of good cheer, and do not lament my passing … When you lay me down in my grave, say that you are burying my body only, and not my soul”

Does what Plato and Socrates say sound very familiar? Indeed it does. It could very well be a summary of what the average Christian also believes!

As the church historian Philip Schaff says:

“Plato gives prominence also to the doctrine of a future state of rewards and punishments. At death, by an inevitable law of its own being, as well as by the appointment of God, every soul goes to its own place; the evil gravitating to the evil, and the good rising to the supreme good.” (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, article: Platonism and Christianity)...

Now compare this with what God and His archenemy, the devil, said in Genesis 2 and 3:

Genesis 2:16-17, 3:4
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die ….. “But the serpent said to the woman, "You will NOT surely die.””

The first that taught that man is – though fallen - supposedly immortal was the devil in the garden of Eden. Compare his “you shall not surely die” with the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. “Your soul is immortal and will live forever”, Billy Graham said. As much as I respect him, the same also Plato, Socrates and the devil said. According to them: there is no real death. “You will not surely die”, “You soul just leaves the body and lives eternally in heaven or in hell, depending on what it has done”. This is not a Christian belief brothers; it is a heathen belief, taught first by the father of lies in the Garden of Eden.....https://www.jba.gr/The-origins-of-the-doctrine-of-the-immortality-of-the-soul.htm

 

[Davy]

When the saints of God die, they lay in the grave waiting for the resurrection, not floating around on some cloud, that comes from Greek Pagan philosophy that crept into the church....

Brethren in Christ Jesus, what Hobie is proposing there is a doctrine tradition of the JEWS of the 'dead in the ground' theory.

The JEWS wrongly believe that our soul is part of our flesh, and lays dead in the ground with our dead flesh body, both waiting for the resurrection. Thus they also wrongly believe that our "spirit" part mentioned in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 also is gone and just a force that animates all things.

However, there are SO MANY NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES that reveal our soul and spirit are together, and continue on to The Lord after flesh death, that to believe folks like Hobie, you might as well put on Jewish garb and start attending a Jewish synagogue that only regards The Old Testament as God's Word!


1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

I'm laughing out loud at Hobie's post which totally DISREGARDS what Apostle Paul said "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption"!

Stick to God's Word as written brethren in Christ. Then it's EASY to know when the doctrines of men are being thrown at you. Then you can LAUGH AT THEM ALONG WITH ME and mock their Biblical ignorance!

 

[rwb]

When the saints of God die, they lay in the grave waiting for the resurrection, not floating around on some cloud, that comes from Greek Pagan philosophy that crept into the church....

What does Paul mean when he says when our natural body dies it is raised a spiritual body? If the dead are not raised a spiritual body after our body dies, then Paul would be correct in saying "they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished" (1Cor 15:18). But Paul argues for the exact opposite. He says that since Christ has risen from the dead, He became the firstfruits of them that slept, (had already died). Therefore, since Christ is the resurrection and the life (Jo 11:25), though these who physically died before Christ defeated death, since Christ is raised, they too were made alive with Him. They are not yet physically alive, but according to Paul since Christ is raised from the dead all who have died and will die in Him shall be raised a "spiritual body".

I agree these disembodied spirits are not floating around on some cloud!! Indeed! They are, since Christ defeated sin and death, with Christ in heaven as living souls, or as Paul writes, a spiritual body that shall return with Christ when the last trumpet sounds. (1Th 4:14)

If the saints have no life in some form after we physically die Christ would never have told Martha: John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Something of faithful saints is eternal, and since every human body is destined to die, that means only the spirit in man, indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ is eternal. And being eternal, when our body dies, believers, as spirit or living souls, go to heaven to be with the Lord while the Kingdom of God in heaven is being completed as the Gospel goes unto all the nations of the world and through the power of the Holy Spirit all who are ordained to eternal life in Christ shall believe and from that moment shall live whether through flesh & bones or through spirit.

 

[ButterflyJones]

There are many verses in the Bible on it, and we see it clearly a bodily resurrection...

Psalm 17:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Job 14:10-15 King James Version (KJV)
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job 19:25-26 King James Version
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

They are free from the sting of death, and will no longer be under its curse..

1 Corinthians 15:54-56 King James Version (KJV)
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Luke 20:35-36 King James Version (KJV)
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Proverbs 14:27 King James Version (KJV)
The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

The perishable cannot inherit the imperishable.

 

[dev553344]

I believe in both, spiritual and physical resurrection.

 

[rwb]

We can see it in Greek pagan ideas...
'According to the ancient Greeks, at the time of death, the soul separates from the body and is transported to the underworld, where it is accepted into the realm by the governing god Hades, who is known to reside at the edges of the ocean and under the deepest depths of the Earth.'..Greek Mythology and Life after Death

Instead of trying to learn biblical truth from pagan ideas, why not simply allow Scripture to show us where our spirit goes when our body dies.

Those who died in faith, as did Lazarus, was carried by the angels to a place called Abraham's bosom. That certainly does not imply the realm of the dead. In death our body returns to the earth, but the spirit in us returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The first that taught that man is – though fallen - supposedly immortal was the devil in the garden of Eden. Compare his “you shall not surely die” with the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. “Your soul is immortal and will live forever”, Billy Graham said. As much as I respect him, the same also Plato, Socrates and the devil said. According to them: there is no real death. “You will not surely die”, “You soul just leaves the body and lives eternally in heaven or in hell, depending on what it has done”. This is not a Christian belief brothers; it is a heathen belief, taught first by the father of lies in the Garden of Eden

There is quite the confusion being stated above. It is not the soul that departs man's dead body and returns to God. It is the spirit in all men that returns to God. This shows a lack of understanding between spirit & soul. The spirit in the body of man is how our body functions. The spirit gives our body physical life. If we die never having been born again of the Holy Spirit from Christ, then our spirit returns to God without life when our body dies. But the spirit possessing the Holy Spirit NEVER dies! So, when our body dies, our spirit, through Christ's Spirit in us ascends to God ALIVE, where it is called a soul. The difference between spirit & soul is that the spirit is what gives every living, breathing creature life, and the soul is what every living creature with body & spirit is. Wherever life is found, whether physical or spirit life, every living creature upon the earth, having life is a soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Hobie]

Brethren in Christ Jesus, what Hobie is proposing there is a doctrine tradition of the JEWS of the 'dead in the ground' theory.

The JEWS wrongly believe that our soul is part of our flesh, and lays dead in the ground with our dead flesh body, both waiting for the resurrection. Thus they also wrongly believe that our "spirit" part mentioned in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 also is gone and just a force that animates all things.

However, there are SO MANY NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES that reveal our soul and spirit are together, and continue on to The Lord after flesh death, that to believe folks like Hobie, you might as well put on Jewish garb and start attending a Jewish synagogue that only regards The Old Testament as God's Word!


1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

I'm laughing out loud at Hobie's post which totally DISREGARDS what Apostle Paul said "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption"!

Stick to God's Word as written brethren in Christ. Then it's EASY to know when the doctrines of men are being thrown at you. Then you can LAUGH AT THEM ALONG WITH ME and mock their Biblical ignorance!

God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal. Humans were made, however, out of the ground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a "living soul" or being (but not an immortal soul) when God breathed life into him.
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The first lie, in the Garden of Eden, the devil wanted Eve to believe revolves around the concept of an immortal soul.
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.
Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

 

[Hobie]

Instead of trying to learn biblical truth from pagan ideas, why not simply allow Scripture to show us where our spirit goes when our body dies.

Those who died in faith, as did Lazarus, was carried by the angels to a place called Abraham's bosom. That certainly does not imply the realm of the dead. In death our body returns to the earth, but the spirit in us returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



There is quite the confusion being stated above. It is not the soul that departs man's dead body and returns to God. It is the spirit in all men that returns to God. This shows a lack of understanding between spirit & soul. The spirit in the body of man is how our body functions. The spirit gives our body physical life. If we die never having been born again of the Holy Spirit from Christ, then our spirit returns to God without life when our body dies. But the spirit possessing the Holy Spirit NEVER dies! So, when our body dies, our spirit, through Christ's Spirit in us ascends to God ALIVE, where it is called a soul. The difference between spirit & soul is that the spirit is what gives every living, breathing creature life, and the soul is what every living creature with body & spirit is. Wherever life is found, whether physical or spirit life, every living creature upon the earth, having life is a soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

If you read, you see it was just a parable, which Christ used to make a point in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation which was rich in spiritual truth, and the poor man represents the Gentiles. The rich man was "dressed" with the knowledge of the King of kings (purple is the colour of royalty) and the means to attaining righteousness. Lazarus was covered in sores which represent sin, but no solution for his malady was offered him. Indeed, he was denied the very crumbs which fell from the spiritual table of the rich man. Jesus shattered this mold of Jewish thinking in his dealings with the Canaanite woman who also requested crumbs from the "rich man's table". In that encounter, dogs were also mentioned and serve as a further type of the Gentiles, or those not favoured by God. Even the disciples requested Jesus to send the woman away, demonstrating the extent to which the teachings of the scribes had influenced their judgment.

As the parable unfolds, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom". The whole of Matthew 23 laments the bigoted views of the scribes and Pharisees, and supplies the answers as to why the condition of the rich and the poor man are seemingly reversed. Moreover, the lesson is driven home to the disciples that case and status are no guarantee for salvation. The road is thus paved enabling the disciples to break with tradition and preach the gospel with power to the Jews and the Gentiles alike. Selfishness was at the root of Jewish beliefs, but God requires self to be lost and to "love thy neighbor as thyself".

The reliance on lineage was the next point addressed in the parable. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father, but in the parable "Father Abraham" was unable to help the rich man. The New Testament states that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed, and Christ came to restore the wounded and brokenhearted. It is only those who realize their own spiritual poverty and need for Christ who can attain the blessings of Christ.

Teachings based on tradition are next rebuked by Jesus. Jesus warns the scribes and the Pharisees that they nullify the Word of God by their traditions. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, no room is left for a second chance after death. A great gulf is fixed, and the rich man is denied the request to send warning to his brothers. The reason given is that they have Moses and the prophets or the Word of God. If we do not accept the teachings of Scriptures, then even a message from the dead would be useless for our salvation.

Each scene, as it unfolds in the parable, conveys a spiritual truth contrary to the mindset of the Jewish leaders. The modern trend of literalizing the parable does great injustice to the intent of the parable, and if you think about it, just ask any Christian if they seek to go to the 'bosom of Abraham'.

 

[rwb]

If you read, you see it was just a parable, which Christ used to make a point in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation which was rich in spiritual truth, and the poor man represents the Gentiles. The rich man was "dressed" with the knowledge of the King of kings (purple is the colour of royalty) and the means to attaining righteousness. Lazarus was covered in sores which represent sin, but no solution for his malady was offered him. Indeed, he was denied the very crumbs which fell from the spiritual table of the rich man. Jesus shattered this mold of Jewish thinking in his dealings with the Canaanite woman who also requested crumbs from the "rich man's table". In that encounter, dogs were also mentioned and serve as a further type of the Gentiles, or those not favoured by God. Even the disciples requested Jesus to send the woman away, demonstrating the extent to which the teachings of the scribes had influenced their judgment.

As the parable unfolds, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom". The whole of Matthew 23 laments the bigoted views of the scribes and Pharisees, and supplies the answers as to why the condition of the rich and the poor man are seemingly reversed. Moreover, the lesson is driven home to the disciples that case and status are no guarantee for salvation. The road is thus paved enabling the disciples to break with tradition and preach the gospel with power to the Jews and the Gentiles alike. Selfishness was at the root of Jewish beliefs, but God requires self to be lost and to "love thy neighbor as thyself".

The reliance on lineage was the next point addressed in the parable. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father, but in the parable "Father Abraham" was unable to help the rich man. The New Testament states that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed, and Christ came to restore the wounded and brokenhearted. It is only those who realize their own spiritual poverty and need for Christ who can attain the blessings of Christ.

Teachings based on tradition are next rebuked by Jesus. Jesus warns the scribes and the Pharisees that they nullify the Word of God by their traditions. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, no room is left for a second chance after death. A great gulf is fixed, and the rich man is denied the request to send warning to his brothers. The reason given is that they have Moses and the prophets or the Word of God. If we do not accept the teachings of Scriptures, then even a message from the dead would be useless for our salvation.

Each scene, as it unfolds in the parable, conveys a spiritual truth contrary to the mindset of the Jewish leaders. The modern trend of literalizing the parable does great injustice to the intent of the parable, and if you think about it, just ask any Christian if they seek to go to the 'bosom of Abraham'.

This shows very good understanding of the parable, and my saying "story" doesn't deny that. I really cannot disagree with anything you've said here. But I'm wondering how your understanding of the parable, you explain very well, gives me any insight into how you differentiate between the spirit in man (breath of life) and the living soul that body + spirit of mankind became?

Your reply didn't address why I replied to this part of your post: "The first that taught that man is – though fallen - supposedly immortal was the devil in the garden of Eden. Compare his “you shall not surely die” with the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. “Your soul is immortal and will live forever”, Billy Graham said. As much as I respect him, the same also Plato, Socrates and the devil said. According to them: there is no real death. “You will not surely die”, “You soul just leaves the body and lives eternally in heaven or in hell, depending on what it has done”. This is not a Christian belief brothers; it is a heathen belief, taught first by the father of lies in the Garden of Eden."

I don't agree with Billy Graham's statement either, at least not in the manner its stated here. The soul, which is the complete human with body + spirit shall only be immortal when the spirit that died in Christ returns from heaven with Christ to give immortal and incorruptible life to the resurrected physical bodies of those who died in faith.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It is the spirit possessing eternal life through Christ's Spirit that leaves the mortal body at death and ascends to heaven still a living albeit spirit soul. Spirit without physical body, but possessing eternal life just as Christ promised all who live and believe in Him shall have. Eternal life is in our spirit, where immortal & incorruptible life will be our resurrected bodies in Christ.

 

[ButterflyJones]

God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal. Humans were made, however, out of the ground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a "living soul" or being (but not an immortal soul) when God breathed life into him.
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The first lie, in the Garden of Eden, the devil wanted Eve to believe revolves around the concept of an immortal soul.
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.
Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal. Humans were made, however, out of the ground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a "living soul" or being (but not an immortal soul) when God breathed life into him.
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The first lie, in the Garden of Eden, the devil wanted Eve to believe revolves around the concept of an immortal soul.
Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.
Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.

Everything that exists is both of and from God. So in essence, we are made of the same stuff as God. Because the dust is of and from God. And our living soul is from the breath of God.

We are never actually separated from our source, God. Salvation in truth is realizing the earthly veneer is a transparency that is able to be overcome when we realize the kingdom is within.

And all across this planet. We just don't always see that.

 

[David in NJ]

Now if we look at what happen with Lazarus we see if even more clearly, as when Christ was speaking to His disciples, Jesus said:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, if he sleep he shall do well. Howbeit, Jesus spoke of his death; but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. John 11:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

The disciples were a bit confused and thought Christ meant natural sleep, but He meant the sleep of death.
On His arrival Jesus found that Lazarus had already been four days in the tomb. John 11:17 King James Version (KJV)

Then we see when talking with Martha, He tried to comfort her by saying,
'Thy brother shall rise again.' Martha saith unto him, 'I know that He shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.' John 11:23,24 King James Version (KJV)

Martha knew that life would be restored to Lazarus only in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus demonstrated through the resurrection of Lazarus that He was the One who could resurrect the dead according to His claim:

John 11:25 King James Version (KJV)
I am the resurrection and the life.
The Scriptures in both Old and New Testaments are very clear on this issue. Life to the dead will be restored in the resurrection on the last day, and it will be bodily.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

When the saints of God die, they lay in the grave waiting for the resurrection, not floating around on some cloud, that comes from Greek Pagan philosophy that crept into the church....

You took the BEAUTIFUL TRUTH and then added your own 2 cents at the end with a false conclusion

 

[David in NJ]

We can see it in Greek pagan ideas...
'According to the ancient Greeks, at the time of death, the soul separates from the body and is transported to the underworld, where it is accepted into the realm by the governing god Hades, who is known to reside at the edges of the ocean and under the deepest depths of the Earth.'..Greek Mythology and Life after Death

Here is even more on this Greek ideas coming into the church..
'this belief comes from Greek philosophy, expounded especially by two of the chief Greek Philosophers: Plato and Socrates. Plato, though not the first to assert the doctrine of the immortal soul, he was definitely the most eloquent one. As Werner Jaeger of Harvard University says:

“The immortality of man was one of the foundational creeds of the philosophical religion of Platonism that was in part adopted by the Christian church” (Werner Jaeger, “The Greek ideas of immortality”, Harvard Theological Review, Volume LII, July 1959, Number 3, emphasis added ).

As The Catholic Encyclopedia (Topic: the platonic school) also informs us:

“The great majority of the Christian philosophers down to St. Augustine were Platonists.”

What did then Plato believe about the soul? Plato was a disciple of another great Greek philosopher, Socrates. Plato’s work “Phaedo” is a dialogue which depicts the death of Socrates. The dialogue supposedly took place on the last day of Socrates, before being executed by drinking hemlock. As Wikipedia says: “one of the main themes in the Phaedo is the idea that the soul is immortal”. We could consider “Phaedo” a work that gives the combined beliefs of Plato and Socrates, the two greatest Greek philosophers on the matter. Here are some passages from this work (Taken from the following website: The Internet Classics Archive | Phaedo by Plato ):

“The soul is in the very likeness of the divine, and immortal, and intelligible, and uniform, and indissoluble, and unchangeable …. It goes away to the pure, and eternal, and immortal, and unchangeable, to which she is kin." (Phaedo)

And again:

“The soul whose inseparable attitude is life will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible ... Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death.... Death is merely the separation of the soul and body." (emphasis added)

Furthermore:

“Be of good cheer, and do not lament my passing … When you lay me down in my grave, say that you are burying my body only, and not my soul”

Does what Plato and Socrates say sound very familiar? Indeed it does. It could very well be a summary of what the average Christian also believes!

As the church historian Philip Schaff says:

“Plato gives prominence also to the doctrine of a future state of rewards and punishments. At death, by an inevitable law of its own being, as well as by the appointment of God, every soul goes to its own place; the evil gravitating to the evil, and the good rising to the supreme good.” (The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, article: Platonism and Christianity)...

Now compare this with what God and His archenemy, the devil, said in Genesis 2 and 3:

Genesis 2:16-17, 3:4
“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die ….. “But the serpent said to the woman, "You will NOT surely die.””

The first that taught that man is – though fallen - supposedly immortal was the devil in the garden of Eden. Compare his “you shall not surely die” with the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. “Your soul is immortal and will live forever”, Billy Graham said. As much as I respect him, the same also Plato, Socrates and the devil said. According to them: there is no real death. “You will not surely die”, “You soul just leaves the body and lives eternally in heaven or in hell, depending on what it has done”. This is not a Christian belief brothers; it is a heathen belief, taught first by the father of lies in the Garden of Eden.....https://www.jba.gr/The-origins-of-the-doctrine-of-the-immortality-of-the-soul.htm

Your own idea is asleep with faslehood = soul sleep is falsehood

 

[David in NJ]

I believe in both, spiritual and physical resurrection.

So you believe the TRUTH = that is a very good aspect of believing God at His Word

 

[David in NJ]

@rwb

NEVER forget that CHRIST is the Resurrection, First by Spirit(Born-Again) and 2nd at His Coming from the grave/earth.

Therefore, if we have been Born-Again by the Spirit = we can NEVER die and shall never sleep in the earth
Only our flesh body returns to the dust from which it came.

John ch11
Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
But even now I know that God will give You whatever You ask of Him.”

“Your brother will rise again,” Jesus told her.

Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies.
And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
@Hobie = JESUS wants to know = Do you believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she answered, “I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.”

 

[Davy]

Instead of trying to learn biblical truth from pagan ideas, why not simply allow Scripture to show us where our spirit goes when our body dies.

Those who died in faith, as did Lazarus, was carried by the angels to a place called Abraham's bosom. That certainly does not imply the realm of the dead. In death our body returns to the earth, but the spirit in us returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



There is quite the confusion being stated above. It is not the soul that departs man's dead body and returns to God. It is the spirit in all men that returns to God. This shows a lack of understanding between spirit & soul. The spirit in the body of man is how our body functions. The spirit gives our body physical life. If we die never having been born again of the Holy Spirit from Christ, then our spirit returns to God without life when our body dies. But the spirit possessing the Holy Spirit NEVER dies! So, when our body dies, our spirit, through Christ's Spirit in us ascends to God ALIVE, where it is called a soul. The difference between spirit & soul is that the spirit is what gives every living, breathing creature life, and the soul is what every living creature with body & spirit is. Wherever life is found, whether physical or spirit life, every living creature upon the earth, having life is a soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In reality, the soul is our actual 'person', but our 'spirit' is the heavenly vehicle that carries our soul. They both are attached together and cannot be separated. Yet they together can be separated from our flesh body.

The problem with the Jew's false 'dead in the ground' doctrine, is they based their doctrine on sole Scripture like Genesis 2:7, and think the soul is part of the flesh. That means they believe the soul dies when the flesh dies. And in the resurrection they believe both flesh and soul together are made alive again.

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus showed that our 'soul' part is not killed if our flesh is killed.

Even in 1 Kings 17, with Elijah praying to God to let the soul of the dead child come into him again, is proof of the soul being separate from the flesh body, and also leaves the flesh along with the spirit part of Eccl.12:7.

 

[dev553344]

In reality, the soul is our actual 'person', but our 'spirit' is the heavenly vehicle that carries our soul. They both are attached together and cannot be separated. Yet they together can be separated from our flesh body.

The problem with the Jew's false 'dead in the ground' doctrine, is they based their doctrine on sole Scripture like Genesis 2:7, and think the soul is part of the flesh. That means they believe the soul dies when the flesh dies. And in the resurrection they believe both flesh and soul together are made alive again.

In Matthew 10:28 Jesus showed that our 'soul' part is not killed if our flesh is killed.

Even in 1 Kings 17, with Elijah praying to God to let the soul of the dead child come into him again, is proof of the soul being separate from the flesh body, and also leaves the flesh along with the spirit part of Eccl.12:7.

The definition of soul is spirit.

 

[Davy]

The definition of soul is spirit.

Bible scholars are still arguing about that. But New Testament Bible scholars well know that the soul is NOT part of the flesh body that perishes.

Apostle Paul actually showed you about the 'soul' part in 1 Corinthians 15, IF... you were paying attention.

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What exactly, is that "It" that Paul said is 'sown' there?

It's not the "spiritual body" (i.e., spirit), because Paul addresses the spiritual body separate from that "It" that is sown... to a spiritual body.

Also, whatever that "It" is, it is first sown in corruption (flesh body), but then later sown in incorruption (the "spiritual body"). That definitely reveals that "It" is something else other than flesh or the spiritual body. Hebrews 4:12 tells us that God made us with a "spirit", and a "soul", and "joints and marrow" (i.e., flesh body).

That "It" is a different part from corruptible flesh, and also different from that "spiritual body". So what is left of the 3 different parts of Hebrews 4:12? THE SOUL PART.

What Paul is talking about is that our SOUL is sown in corruptible flesh, but then raised in incorruption at flesh death with the "spiritual body". We CANNOT just say the SOUL is the "spiritual body", because how could it be sown in incorruption at the start like Paul said??

What Paul points to is actually very simple, also if you understand His other Epistles like 2 Corinthians 5 where he revealed that we also 'have', right now even... at present, ANOTHER body not made with hands (i.e., non-flesh), eternal in the Heavens. Paul was actually revealing that we already have... a spirit body dwelling with our soul inside our flesh body while we are alive in the flesh.

Our spirit, or spirit body is a vehicle for the Heavenly dimension.
Our flesh body is a vehicle for this earthly dimension.

Our SOUL is the real us, our Id. It is always attached to our spirit. It is not our spirit body, but it cannot be separated from it.

Our spirit body is our OUTWARD IMAGE in the Heavenly.
Our flesh body is our outward image in this earthly dimension.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

That is why Apostle Paul proclaimed that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom. In the 1 Cor.15:53-54 verses, Paul reveals that TWO changes must happen to have eternal life in Christ. Our corruptible part (flesh) must put on incorruption (spiritual body), and "this mortal" (SOUL) must put on immortality.

Paul was pointing to our SOUL condition with that "this mortal". The unsaved in Christ's future "thousand years" reign will still have SOULS that are LIABLE TO PERISH in the "lake of fire" after that thousand years. Their SOUL will not put on immortality in Christ, UNLESS... they convert and confess Him as their Savior.

 

[Hobie]

This shows very good understanding of the parable, and my saying "story" doesn't deny that. I really cannot disagree with anything you've said here. But I'm wondering how your understanding of the parable, you explain very well, gives me any insight into how you differentiate between the spirit in man (breath of life) and the living soul that body + spirit of mankind became?

Your reply didn't address why I replied to this part of your post: "The first that taught that man is – though fallen - supposedly immortal was the devil in the garden of Eden. Compare his “you shall not surely die” with the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. “Your soul is immortal and will live forever”, Billy Graham said. As much as I respect him, the same also Plato, Socrates and the devil said. According to them: there is no real death. “You will not surely die”, “You soul just leaves the body and lives eternally in heaven or in hell, depending on what it has done”. This is not a Christian belief brothers; it is a heathen belief, taught first by the father of lies in the Garden of Eden."

I don't agree with Billy Graham's statement either, at least not in the manner its stated here. The soul, which is the complete human with body + spirit shall only be immortal when the spirit that died in Christ returns from heaven with Christ to give immortal and incorruptible life to the resurrected physical bodies of those who died in faith.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It is the spirit possessing eternal life through Christ's Spirit that leaves the mortal body at death and ascends to heaven still a living albeit spirit soul. Spirit without physical body, but possessing eternal life just as Christ promised all who live and believe in Him shall have. Eternal life is in our spirit, where immortal & incorruptible life will be our resurrected bodies in Christ.

If man has immortality, the questions then becomes, why he needs Christ. No, scripture is clear, man does not have immortality, the soul is shown to come to an end, so lets look at that.
Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 , 20 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

These verses show basically the same equation..
Physical body (dust), minus or without the breath of life (spirit) = death (the ceasing of the two)

Here are more verses that verify that the 'breath of life' equates to the spirit:
Genesis 7:22 - All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job 27:3 - All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Isaiah 2:22 - Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

As you can see, the breath of life and the spirit are one and the same and are used interchangeably.

So does the spirit have thoughts or memory?
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Job 12:2 - No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.

So, the spirit (breath - ruwach) that returns to God at death is not mentioned as being immortal nor does it contain any memory or information of the individual or any conscience whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite has been seen; the dead dont know anything nor can they gain any further reward towards heaven.

Who is/has immortality now?
1 Timothy 6:15 , 16 - Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Deuteronomy 33:27 - The eternal God is thy refuge, ...

ONLY God has immortality right now, 1 Timothy 6:15 & 16 makes that abundantly clear. The question is can humans achieve it, and if so, how?

John 3:15 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 17:2 - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1 Timothy 6:19 - Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.