The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)

[keithr]

Now you're a Greek expert again?

Still lacking the ability to understand simple things, I see.

I quoted a footnote from a Bible. I was not claiming to be an expert on Greek. The note may have been written by the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (published February 7, 2022). As a translator I would guess that he is a Greek (and Hebrew) expert. From the Amazon webpage for the UASV Kindle edition:

CHIEF TRANSLATOR​

EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. He has authored over 220+ books. In addition, Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV).​

​

The UASV project got underway in 2005 and took 16 years to complete. Andrews primarily worked by himself but had assistance if needed from other translators from other literal translations that shall go unnamed.​

 

[Jack]

Still lacking the ability to understand simple things, I see.

I quoted a footnote from a Bible. I was not claiming to be an expert on Greek. The note may have been written by the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (published February 7, 2022). As a translator I would guess that he is a Greek (and Hebrew) expert. From the Amazon webpage for the UASV Kindle edition:

CHIEF TRANSLATOR​

EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. He has authored over 220+ books. In addition, Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV).​

​

The UASV project got underway in 2005 and took 16 years to complete. Andrews primarily worked by himself but had assistance if needed from other translators from other literal translations that shall go unnamed.​

You quoted a footnote because you couldn't find Bible to support you? Why not quote Bible? That's what Christians do.

 

[keithr]

You quoted a footnote because you couldn't find Bible to support you? Why not quote Bible? That's what Christians do.

I think you'll find that I have quoted the Bible in my posts much more than you have. But lets not squabble:

2 Timothy 2:14 WEB

(14) Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.​

2 Timothy 2:23-26 WEB

(23) But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife.​

(24) The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,​

(25) in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,​

(26) and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.​

Titus 3:9 WEB

(9) but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.​

1 Timothy 6:3-5 WEB

(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,​

(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,​

(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.​

I'm not going to reply to any more of your foolish questions and statements.

 

[Jack]

I think you'll find that I have quoted the Bible in my posts much more than you have. But lets not squabble:

2 Timothy 2:14 WEB

(14) Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.​

2 Timothy 2:23-26 WEB

(23) But refuse foolish and ignorant questionings, knowing that they generate strife.​

(24) The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,​

(25) in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,​

(26) and they may recover themselves out of the devil’s snare, having been taken captive by him to his will.​

Titus 3:9 WEB

(9) but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.​

1 Timothy 6:3-5 WEB

(3) If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,​

(4) he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions,​

(5) constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.​

I'm not going to reply to any more of your foolish questions and statements.

Well I hope you don't burn in Hell!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Life after Death

Before attempting any serious interpretation of this remarkable parable, it is essential to establish clearly that it does not present an actual depiction of life after death. Anyone reading this story literally, as a believer in the immortality of the soul, is likely to be led astray.

While Luke’s Gospel does not explicitly label it a parable, the same is true of the story of the unjust steward. Both begin with the words, “There was a certain rich man…” Yet who would insist that the unjust steward was a real person known to Jesus? Indeed, verse 15 requires interpretation in the context of the Pharisees.

Detail after detail in the story becomes absurd if taken literally: “In hell the rich man lifted up his eyes and saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom… Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.” Do disembodied souls truly have eyes, fingers, tongues, or bosoms? And what use would one drop of water be in a place of unquenchable fire? Clearly, Jesus crafted these details to impress the audience with their impossibility.

Consider, too, the idea that part of the joy of the blessed hereafter would consist of constantly observing the damned in torment. What kind of everlasting happiness could this be? Lazarus is described as resting in Abraham’s bosom, yet is this meant to be taken literally as the eternal state of all righteous people? The parable provides no indication that the rich man was wicked or Lazarus inherently virtuous. In fact, the rich man is shown as loving toward his brothers. Should we then conclude that wealth in this life leads automatically to hell, and misery guarantees eternal bliss? Such reasoning is absurd, Abraham himself enjoyed considerable wealth in life (Gen. 13:2, etc.).

Finally, the parable concludes with a strong emphasis on the teaching of Moses and the prophets. What do they say about the state of the dead? “Abraham… was gathered to his people” (Gen. 25:8), yet his people were idol-worshippers (Josh. 24:2). Regarding Joseph’s death, Jacob lamented: “I shall go down to the grave (Hades) unto my son mourning” (Gen. 37:35). Similarly, Jonah cried from the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:1-2), which he mistakenly believed to be a kind of hell. Hezekiah, facing death, acknowledged: “The grave (Hades) cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee… the living, the living, he shall praise thee” (Isa. 38:10, 18-19).

Taken literally, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is one of the most fragile foundations for belief in disembodied immortality.

So why, then, did Jesus frame his teaching around such an obviously false concept?

QUOTE
"Before attempting any serious interpretation of this remarkable parable, it is essential to establish clearly that it does not present an actual depiction of life after death. Anyone reading this story literally, as a believer in the immortality of the soul, is likely to be led astray."

How in the world did you get it backwards????????

 

[rebuilder 454]

The truth about death has been obscured by God’s adversary from the beginning.....in order to promote the lie that he told to Eve in the garden....”you surely will not die”....and he perpetuates it in almost every form of false worship....do you know of any that do not have some kind of spiritual existence after death?

God told Adam that he would ‘die and return to the dust’ from which he was created...no mention of heaven or hell, just life or death. A resurrection was a restoration of life...but not an immediate continuation of it.

So much is skewed by the notion that we do not really die when the heart stops beating and oxygen is no longer supplied to our cells. This is what death is.....the “soul” dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

God did not give Adam a “soul” when he created him....Adam only became a “soul” when God started him breathing. The soul and spirit have become conflated as if they somehow mean the same thing.....they are not the same at all....and the Bible in its original languages shows us clearly what that difference is.

The “soul” is the whole creature, a word that in Hebrew means a living, breathing earth-bound creation....animals and well as humans are called “souls”. Solomon wrote that animals die the same death was we do...they stop breathing and return to the dust. (Eccl 3:19-20) We have no advantage over the animals in death....only in resurrection.

The “spirit” OTOH, is the animating force in all living creatures on this earth...it is sustained by breathing and when breathing stops, the last breath leaves the body and death is accomplished. There is no consciousness in death...it is rather like sleep from which only Jesus can awaken us. (Joh 5:28-29)
Where did Jesus say that Lazarus was before he raised him from the dead? (John 11:11-14)

When one has been raised to believe that our spirit departs from our body as an invisible conscious part of us, and goes to either heaven or hell, it’s hard to imagine anything else, since God did not program “death” into our psyche. It wasn’t supposed to happen because God put the means for everlasting life right there in the garden as a choice.....humans were supposed to live forever in paradise on earth....not in heaven at all.

We have no program for death, so when the devil offered a way to keep on living, the humans found it attractive.....but as was discussed on your other thread, death was never a gateway to another life.
Jews did not have a belief in an immortal soul because the idea was absent from their Scripture but was introduced later in their apostasy from Greek influence. It is a pagan Greek concept.

Even Jesus slept in death for three days in a tomb before God raised him from the dead....(Eccl 9:5, 10)
Paul also spoke of those who slept in death. (1 Thess 4:13-18) They were not to be raised until Christ’s return.

The devil has done such a good job of convincing people that they don’t really die, that he has no trouble convincing them of all sorts of other lies......confident in the knowledge that humans are easy to fool, if you use the right bait.

Just the opposite.
The devil has convinced men of no life after death.
Doctrine straight from hell.

 

[Jericho]

In a few places in his letters, Paul explained the sequence of events as to when the dead in Christ would rise from the dead, namely, when Jesus makes his second advent.

And yet, when Jesus was raised from the dead, there were many dead saints that were raised with him (Mat 27:52). I would suggest that the resurrection of the dead is not a singular event but has multiple stages.

If they're not really dead, why would they need to rise? The whole idea of resurrection would have no meaning if the dead were not dead.

Because their physical bodies are dead. But we are not our bodies; we merely live in a body. We are a spirit, like God is a spirit. There is one type of body for heaven and another type for earth. A physical body cannot function in heaven, nor can a heavenly body function on earth. The whole point of resurrecting our physical bodies is so we can return to earth.

As you may know there was no punctuation in the original texts, so any punctuation would involve the interpreter's bias.

Here's another way it could be punctuated:

Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jesus spoke that on some unspecified day in the future, the thief would be with him, but not that very day. Did Jesus go to paradise that day? He didn't. He went to the grave which is hardly a paradise.

You're the only one who is reinterpreting like that. None of the bible translations that I've seen translate it in that manner.

Also a vision (Matt 17:9)

Are you saying the transfiguration was a vision? That's a new one on me.

Depends on what is considered "face value." Is "a vision" part of the face value? The placement of a comma in Matthew also greatly affects the face value.

That seems like an attempt to fudge with the syntax and grammar to fit your interpretation.

So the question is, did Israel affect Egyptian and Greek beliefs, or the other way around. I might suggest the later since God constantly condemned Israel for that very thing.

I'm sure there was some of both, but not everything Israel did was a condemnation. Take the Ark of the Covenant, for example. It's design closely resembles Egyptian shrines, like the Anubis shrine. The Ark of the Covenant can then be seen as polemic to reframe Egyptian beliefs in proper context. In much the same way, I believe the bible reframes Egyptian ideas about the afterlife and puts them in proper biblical context.

 

[Bladerunner]

If our worship is superficial, without diligent study, it requires nothing but blind belief.....this is a “blindness” that Paul mentions in 2 Cor 4:3-3.
“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (ESV)
This is a blindness that rejects the truth......which sounds so foreign to the indoctrinated, that it repels them.

This was to partially blind the Jews of the 1st century until the Gentiles are done. This will not be until the final battle of Armageddon. (i.e tells us a lot about the covenant the Jews make with many and the anti-christ enforces/protects..see Isa 28:14-21 and one finds they, the Jews made a convenant with "Death and Hell"

Do we underestimate the power of this enemy so as to ‘blindly’ accept what is spoon fed to the masses? Isn’t that what happened to the Jews in Jesus’ day? They relied on the wrong information from the wrong people....and lost their place in God’s Kingdom.

There will be a remnant of Israel that will appear and be saved by God in Rev. 12. at the half way point in Daniel's week.

Does the devil change his tactics? Why would he when the old ones work so well for him....added to that is how long these tactics have been employed and how well he understands flawed human nature.

Satan cannot blind people. only God can do that. However, He can assist them in their loving of sin.

We CAN trust the Bible...what we can’t trust is how men interpret it. This is what divides the Christian Faith to the point where the churches are so far removed from the truth, that they cannot identify it when it is right in front of them. The Jews had the same problem. What Jesus taught was a truth that they did not want to hear.

Agree, of course, this has been Prophesied from olden days (OT)

They had strayed so far from the teachings of Moses that when Jesus came to teach the truth, it was rejected as heresy (apostasy).

Not so much straying from the Laws of Moses but rather they had rather stay legalistic (follow the Laws of Moses) even though the Law and Prophets stopped with John the Baptists. Mat 3

Matt 15:7-9....Jesus said....
“You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (ESV)
It was they who had taught “the commands of men as doctrines”....history is repeating because human nature does not change.

It is sad but these are the last days we are in and apostasy runs amok. Have a blessed day, my friend.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This was to partially blind the Jews of the 1st century until the Gentiles are done.

Can you explain what these “Gentile times” are, and why they were given in Daniel’s Prophesy.
What do they accomplish? God chose one nation to be his people, but in his promise to Abraham concerning his descendants, he also said that “all the nations” would be blessed because of Abraham’s faith. God would bring forth his Messiah through that one nation, whom he kept separated from the nations, despite their many excursions into false worship and warranted punishments.

When Jesus gave his dual prophesy in Luke 21:7-28, what do you notice about the features of that prophesy that applied back in the first century, as well as when Jesus was to return in the future.
The first one pictured the second, when Jesus was to return....what are the similarities?

This will not be until the final battle of Armageddon. (i.e tells us a lot about the covenant the Jews make with many and the anti-christ enforces/protects..see Isa 28:14-21 and one finds they, the Jews made a convenant with "Death and Hell"

I have no faith at all in natural Israel’s ability to be obedient to the commands of their God....they couldn’t do it before Jesus came, and when he walked the earth, out of hatred and envy, they orchestrated his murder, so, still on the back foot as far as obedience to God was concerned. What makes people certain that they can get it right in the future when they never could in the past or the present for that matter? If God fights for Israel, why do they need allies from the world to provide their protection?

I believe what Jesus said in Matt 24:37-39...we are again living in a period that is saturated with bloodshed and violence...just like the days of Noah, when Jesus was to return....

“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (NASB)

Jesus is due to return in our time...soon now, those who “did not understand” the signs around them, will be confronted with an awful truth. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) Too late then to change course.

There will be a remnant of Israel that will appear and be saved by God in Rev. 12. at the half way point in Daniel's week.

That “remnant” have already been identified as those who followed Jesus in the first century. These ones walked away from their former religion because they understood that Jesus was teaching the truth....a truth that the leaders and the majority of the Jews rejected out of hand as heresy...apostasy. Is history repeating?

Satan cannot blind people. only God can do that. However, He can assist them in their loving of sin.

You are right to a point...that Scripture says that satan can only “blind the minds” of “unbelievers”....so what then is the definition of an “unbeliever”?
The Jews “believed” in the same God that Jesus did, but they were led astray by their corrupt leaders who made the scriptures say what they wanted them to say...”teaching the commands of men as doctrines”. (Matt 15:7-9) Even the demons “believe”... (James 2:19)
Again...is history repeating?

It is sad but these are the last days we are in and apostasy runs amok.

Sad indeed, but all prophesied....when Jesus makes his appearance as judge, then there will only be two kinds of people in the world...”sheep” or “goats”.....who were the “goats” in Jesus’ day? Who were the “unbelievers” who persecuted the Christians after putting Jesus to death? Were they not worshippers of supposedly the same God? “Unbelievers” are then redefined.....”believers” of what is not truth, taught by wolves in a sheep suit.

History can only repeat if humans did not learn the lessons from the past....Satan counts on our short memory and attention span.

Have a blessed day, my friend.

And to you....these are perilous times, so pray that all make the right choices...and for the right reasons.

 

[Bladerunner]

Can you explain what these “Gentile times” are, and why they were given in Daniel’s Prophesy.
What do they accomplish?

Hi Auntie..will be glad to: The times of the Gentiles are those times from the Babylonian Empire and the capture of Jerusalem (at Judea) until the last Battle for Jerusalem, known as the Battle of Armageddon. Up until this day, the Gentiles have been in charge/running over Jerusalem (God's Holy City). The prophecies in the Bible lead on a trek from the beginning until the last day. We are told what happened, what is happening and what will happen by them. Israel is said to be God's time clock....All events of the middle east are attached to Israel. People Hate them because God declared them His People....Not because they were prettier or smarter, but because He simply chose them. nothing else, yet all the hate in the world is targeted against that little country. The Battle of Armageddon is Satan's last stand where He is trying to take over the temple and Jerusalem away from God..Once He destroys the armies of the world here and the hord that is waiting to run over Jerrusalem, The times of the Gentiles will be ended...In the Millennium, the Remnant of Israel (roughly 1/3 of their present population)will rule the world from Jerusalem with Jesus.

God chose one nation to be his people, but in his promise to Abraham concerning his descendants, he also said that “all the nations” would be blessed because of Abraham’s faith.

All nations have been blessed. they are nations and most prosper. They all are blessed with Rain , etc, His benevolent love....Yet, He also told that all (nations and individual) who cursed Abraham (who was destined to become Israel and all of her inhabitants)would also be cursed. It is also prophesied that all nations will come to hate Israel. There will be no on helping her. the USA contains the largest number of Jews outside of Israel and the Hatred for them (anti-semitism) is steadily growing. There will be a reckoning when this happens and I suspect America will not be a superpower. How God's plan does this, I don't know.

God would bring forth his Messiah through that one nation, whom he kept separated from the nations, despite their many excursions into false worship and warranted punishments.

I wanted to separate this from the others Auntie. keep in mind that Abraham is a gentile and there were no Jews at that time...So was Jacob (God called Him Israel) and Rebecca. Their sons all 14 of them became Israel....(a bakers dozen). From this time on, we have had crossovers of marriages with many gentiles and Jews. Rahab was a gentile yet her son (Boaz) was the grandfather of King David and Ruth His wife who was a moabite priestis, another gentile... No one can say the Jews are anything special except God (the Father) has chosen them as His People..On the other hand, Jesus wife will be those chosen for Him and all who will be true believers. Hope this make sense....We are all mixed all the way back to Adam/Eve.

When Jesus gave his dual prophesy in Luke 21:7-28, what do you notice about the features of that prophesy that applied back in the first century, as well as when Jesus was to return in the future.
The first one pictured the second, when Jesus was to return....what are the similarities?

To make it a little shorter, I will refer to the scripture, by parts. Lets start with the 1st century. verses 7.8.9 refer to the time from this teaching at the temple until now...

verses 10,11,and 12 also are common with 1st century until today and beyond. Kingdom (religions) against kingdoms have always had wars against each other. Of course Nations vs Nations also war against each other constantly. Even in the 1st century with Rome in charge, they were being attacked from different nations. In the Dark ages, Kingdoms fought against each other and still do today. The Christian's who He is speaking to are the ones who He is saying will be hated and persecuted. Even back in the days of the apostles, the Judaizers were persecuting those Jews who were in the churches.

We have persecutions today between Islam and Christianity. And where did Islam come from? These persecutions of the Jews have continued over the centuries. Hitler killed roughly 1/3 of their population during WWII and in the future, 2/3 of their population will die. The remaining 1/3 will become the remnant of Israel Rev 12.

I have no faith at all in natural Israel’s ability to be obedient to the commands of their God....they couldn’t do it before Jesus came, and when he walked the earth, out of hatred and envy, they orchestrated his murder, so, still on the back foot as far as obedience to God was concerned.

They were not suppose to do it..Rem, God is in control and He has two plans for Israel and the Gentiles. Yes, they put Him to death (Isa 53:10-12) and many believed in Him, that faithful day, many were converted. I even suspect I will see Pilot in Heaven. From then to now. there are messianic Jews (true Believers) that occupy the spirit halls of His Church, His Body, His Betrothed Bride. Gngod is in control for each of our lives. this does not mean our free will is non-existant because our freewill (a creaturely free will) gives us our desires.....Yet, God is still in control of all things....

What makes people certain that they can get it right in the future when they never could in the past or the present for that matter? If God fights for Israel, why do they need allies from the world to provide their protection?

God protects Israel. Back in 1948 when Israel declared themselves a sovereign nation, they were immediately attacked by five different fronts.. Although, they had in the previous year, prepared for this, getting hit from five sides would be more than enough to destroy any other nations. Yet, In 6 days, they put to rest all of their attackers. in 1972 when they took over Jerusalem without a shot being fired, they were also attacked agains but not by so many. they won in three days. Yes, God is protecting them. There are several prophecies that are fixing to come true during these last days we are in. one of them is the Gog, Magog prophecy. Here, Israel is living without walls and is prosperous...yet, Russia, Turkey and Iran attackes them and nobody helps them but GOD..Here GOD actually brings a mountain down on them. None survive except Israel....Again 2/3 of Israel's population will be killed by the world during Daniel's 70th week yet to come. Rev 12

Luk 21:20-24.... This prophecy is about 70AD..a facsinating study. Verse 20 one sees the Roman Army surrounding Jerusalem proper and the temple. Yet, for about 15-18 months nothing was done..WHY? General Vaspasian (the old man) was recalled to Rome...They were having problems keeping Caesar alive....He left his son Titus incharge of the Army but about the time He was going to attack, but his father became Caesar and as now a prince ("and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary", Dan 9:26.. Anyway, some 15-18 months later, Titus returns to attack and destroy the city ( Book of Jewish Wars.).

Verse 21 is for 70AD however, this prophecy will show up again for a future event that has not happened. (Rev 12). There is a difference is where here the prophecy tells those leaving not to let anyone from the country back intoJerusalem.

verse23 we find that it is both 70 AD and the far future yet to occur.

verse 24. Here until the times of the Gentiles is fullfilled, Jerusalem shall be trodden down by Gentiles..Even to day, Jordanians(Gentiles) are incharge of the temple mount.

verses 25-28 pretains to the future 2nd coming of Christ (rev 19:11-

Let me go back to Luk 21:5-6 where Jesus' prophecy about the temple was for 70AD...NO stone would remain unturned. WHY? Because the temple had Gold all of the place and the Jewish leaders of the temple decided to burn it and part of Jerusalem. This mad Gen. Titus mad so He made sure everything was burnt..Over a million jews died this battle. No Christian deaths were recorded vor they believed Jesus prophecy. The stones were all turned over to recover the melted gold that ran through the floors.

I believe what Jesus said in Matt 24:37-39...we are again living in a period that is saturated with bloodshed and violence...just like the days of Noah, when Jesus was to return.... “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (NASB)

The days of Noah here are referrring to the Nephilm and their children which is why the flood happened. We are already seeing the days of Noah happening.. another time.

Auntie: I am over the 10,000 letter limit...I have removed and copied an large portion of this and will place it in another reply.

 

[Bladerunner]

Can you explain what these “Gentile times” are, and why they were given in Daniel’s Prophesy.
What do they accomplish? God chose one nation to be his people, but in his promise to Abraham concerning his descendants, he also said that “all the nations” would be blessed because of Abraham’s faith. God would bring forth his Messiah through that one nation, whom he kept separated from the nations, despite their many excursions into false worship and warranted punishments.

When Jesus gave his dual prophesy in Luke 21:7-28, what do you notice about the features of that prophesy that applied back in the first century, as well as when Jesus was to return in the future.
The first one pictured the second, when Jesus was to return....what are the similarities?

I have no faith at all in natural Israel’s ability to be obedient to the commands of their God....they couldn’t do it before Jesus came, and when he walked the earth, out of hatred and envy, they orchestrated his murder, so, still on the back foot as far as obedience to God was concerned. What makes people certain that they can get it right in the future when they never could in the past or the present for that matter? If God fights for Israel, why do they need allies from the world to provide their protection?

I believe what Jesus said in Matt 24:37-39...we are again living in a period that is saturated with bloodshed and violence...just like the days of Noah, when Jesus was to return....

“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (NASB)

Jesus is due to return in our time...soon now, those who “did not understand” the signs around them, will be confronted with an awful truth. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) Too late then to change course.


That “remnant” have already been identified as those who followed Jesus in the first century. These ones walked away from their former religion because they understood that Jesus was teaching the truth....a truth that the leaders and the majority of the Jews rejected out of hand as heresy...apostasy. Is history repeating?

You are right to a point...that Scripture says that satan can only “blind the minds” of “unbelievers”....so what then is the definition of an “unbeliever”?
The Jews “believed” in the same God that Jesus did, but they were led astray by their corrupt leaders who made the scriptures say what they wanted them to say...”teaching the commands of men as doctrines”. (Matt 15:7-9) Even the demons “believe”... (James 2:19)
Again...is history repeating?

Sad indeed, but all prophesied....when Jesus makes his appearance as judge, then there will only be two kinds of people in the world...”sheep” or “goats”.....who were the “goats” in Jesus’ day? Who were the “unbelievers” who persecuted the Christians after putting Jesus to death? Were they not worshippers of supposedly the same God? “Unbelievers” are then redefined.....”believers” of what is not truth, taught by wolves in a sheep suit.

History can only repeat if humans did not learn the lessons from the past....Satan counts on our short memory and attention span.

And to you....these are perilous times, so pray that all make the right choices...and for the right reasons.

Jesus is due to return in our time...soon now, those who “did not understand” the signs around them, will be confronted with an awful truth. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) Too late then to change course.

Once a person dies, they can do nothing, yet since GOD has chosen those of His elect, the chosen will possibly not die before they are saved.

That “remnant” have already been identified as those who followed Jesus in the first century. These ones walked away from their former religion because they understood that Jesus was teaching the truth....a truth that the leaders and the majority of the Jews rejected out of hand as heresy...apostasy. Is history repeating?Gods

God has several remnants of Israel. Rev 12 is the last one..

You are right to a point...that Scripture says that satan can only “blind the minds” of “unbelievers”....so what then is the definition of an “unbeliever”?
The Jews “believed” in the same God that Jesus did, but they were led astray by their corrupt leaders who made the scriptures say what they wanted them to say...”teaching the commands of men as doctrines”. (Matt 15:7-9) Even the demons “believe”... (James 2:19)
Again...is history repeating?

Sad indeed, but all prophesied....when Jesus makes his appearance as judge, then there will only be two kinds of people in the world...”sheep” or “goats”.....who were the “goats” in Jesus’ day? Who were the “unbelievers” who persecuted the Christians after putting Jesus to death? Were they not worshippers of supposedly the same God? “Unbelievers” are then redefined.....”believers” of what is not truth, taught by wolves in a sheep suit.

If they died in unbelief then they were sent where the Rich man (Luke 16) was sent...The sheep of the future will live as mortals during the millennium on earth. Jesus will rule the earth from Israel. This is mainly why most hate HE..Rem, They hate us for they Hated Him first.

History can only repeat if humans did not learn the lessons from the past....Satan counts on our short memory and attention span.

And to you....these are perilous times, so pray that all make the right choices...and for the right reasons.

THe Lord tells us early on there is nothing NEW under the sun. History has to be repeated with the same old errors.

Thanks for your questions. very good ones....Blessings

 

[keithr]

Well I hope you don't burn in Hell!

No worries! Neither you or I will burn in hell for eternity. God doesn't try to frighten us into to loving Him, because that won't work - it wouldn't be true love, it would just be obedience and respect based on fear. We love God because He loved us first.

1 John 4:18-19 WEB

(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.​

(19) We love him, because he first loved us.​

 

[Jack]

No worries! Neither you or I will burn in hell for eternity. God doesn't try to frighten us into to loving Him, because that won't work - it wouldn't be true love, it would just be obedience and respect based on fear. We love God because He loved us first.

1 John 4:18-19 WEB

(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.​

(19) We love him, because he first loved us.​

Should we believe your OPINIONS or Jesus? Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no everlasting Hell Fire!

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

"Everlasting": same Greek Word! If you deny EVERLASTING punishment you deny everlasting life also!

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Rich R]

And yet, when Jesus was raised from the dead, there were many dead saints that were raised with him (Mat 27:52). I would suggest that the resurrection of the dead is not a singular event but has multiple stages.

Because their physical bodies are dead. But we are not our bodies; we merely live in a body. We are a spirit, like God is a spirit. There is one type of body for heaven and another type for earth. A physical body cannot function in heaven, nor can a heavenly body function on earth. The whole point of resurrecting our physical bodies is so we can return to earth.

You're the only one who is reinterpreting like that. None of the bible translations that I've seen translate it in that manner.

Are you saying the transfiguration was a vision? That's a new one on me.

That seems like an attempt to fudge with the syntax and grammar to fit your interpretation.

I'm sure there was some of both, but not everything Israel did was a condemnation. Take the Ark of the Covenant, for example. It's design closely resembles Egyptian shrines, like the Anubis shrine. The Ark of the Covenant can then be seen as polemic to reframe Egyptian beliefs in proper context. In much the same way, I believe the bible reframes Egyptian ideas about the afterlife and puts them in proper biblical context.

There are two sides to the issue:

Gen 2:16-17,

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:​

​

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Gen 3:4,

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

​

 

[keithr]

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

"Everlasting": same Greek Word! If you deny EVERLASTING punishment you deny everlasting life also!

See post #199.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

See post #184.

 

[Jack]

See post #199.


See post #184.

"Everlasting": same Greek Word! If you deny EVERLASTING punishment you deny everlasting life also!

 

[soberxp]

What if we take a different path?
What if the story really is about Abraham.
Now Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
Do you remember the story of how Hagar and Ishmael was left to die in the wilderness and an angel came and showed them water?
Sarah had said:
Gen 21:9
And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Gen 21:10
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Gen 21:11
And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

Luk 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

There are many comparisons to The richman and thebeggar.
A lot of lessons to be learned as well.
Hugs

So the struggle and competition between human beings comes from the desire for wealth and power.

And this situation becomes an inheritance and gradually moves away from the word of God and becomes a mainstream concept.

 

[Jericho]

There are two sides to the issue:

Gen 2:16-17,

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:​

​

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Gen 3:4,

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

​

Let me ask you this, do you believe in the sprit realm (angels, demons, etc.)?

 

[JLB]

Do you also presume the unjust steward is a parable?

‘Jesus plainly said “Abraham said”.

Do you believe Jesus lied about what Abraham said?


But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:25

 

[Jack]

Why do you presume it's a parable? When it's a parable, it will say so. Jesus doesn't preface the story of the rich man and Lazarus by saying it's a parable. Moreover, parables don't use specific names.

Satan's messengers HATE this absolutely literal account of the rich man dying, but totally alive, CRYING in the fire!