The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)

[rebuilder 454]

Jack likes to talk to me like I’m some kind of child. And truth be told, a lot of people treat me that way—like I’m just a nuisance.
Maybe I am. I’ve asked God to take my life more than once. But He keeps me here. I don’t know why.
So I’m not here to argue. Banter back and forth is a waste of time. I just want to share truth—especially when it comes to how people speak about Jesus, how they try to dictate who He is, and act like they’ve mastered Him… even mastered the Bible.
But the Spirit? The Spirit overrides all that noise.

You being wrong about it, is asking for others to correct you.

I am here to offer truth.
It is not a Parable.

Now...just assume it is for sake of debate.
What is the parables message?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Ronald thats not how conversations work. If you don't care to engage, just don't worry about it then.









You'll still be wrong concerning the Parable of Lazarus and Rich man. By saying it's not a Parable.



Jesus dictation is a problem.

You refuse to answer my question, that's why there is no conversation. You are ignoring it, afraid of it ... guilty?
Do you agree with 1 Tim. 5:8 ... and I 'll make it easy,
YES OR NO?
Come on try to answer - communicate.

 

[MatthewG]

You refuse to answer my question, that's why there is no conversation. You are ignoring it, afraid of it ... guilty?
Do you agree with 1 Tim. 5:8 ... and I 'll make it easy,
YES OR NO?
Come on try to answer - communicate.

Ronald, that’s not how real conversations work. I’m not going to bend to your demands, so I’m stepping away from this entirely. This isn’t about fear or guilt—it’s about boundaries.


I get it—you’ve got plenty of people who’ll raise your hand and say, “Ronald was right!” because they see the world the same way you do.


But I’m not some naïve pushover. I’m sharp, and I’ve been around enough manipulation and abuse to recognize the tactics. I’ve used them myself. I know the game, and I’m not playing it anymore.

 

[Jack]

But I’m not some naïve pushover. I’m sharp, and I’ve been around enough manipulation and abuse to recognize the tactics. I’ve used them myself. I know the game, and I’m not playing it anymore.

And you're so humble.

And Matt believes Yeshua BECAME God. lol

But he's SHARP. Just ask Matt.

 

[keithr]

The rich man and Lazarus has Proper names and locations.

That does not mean that it is not a parable. A parable is simply a fictitious story from which a moral or religious lesson may be drawn. There is no rule that people mentioned in it can't be given a name, or that references to real places can't be used. Consider these parables:

Luke 12:16-21 (WEB):

(16) He spoke a parable to them, saying, “The ground of a certain rich man produced abundantly.​

(17) He reasoned within himself, saying, ‘What will I do, because I don’t have room to store my crops?’​

(18) He said, ‘This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.​

(19) I will tell my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.”’​

(20) “But God said to him, ‘You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’​

(21) So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”​

Luke 10:30-37 (WEB):

(30) Jesus answered, “A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.​

(31) By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side.​

(32) In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.​

(33) But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion,​

(34) came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.​

(35) On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, ‘Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.’​

(36) Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?”​

(37) He said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”​

The first parable includes mention of God, whom I'm sure you agree is a real person. The second parable mentions Jerusalem and Jericho, which are real locations.

 

[Jack]

That does not mean that it is not a parable.

Yes it does. Jesus clearly warned us of the EVERLASTING fire several times. It is totally consistent with Jesus' warnings. Oh that's right, Jesus did tell us about the rich man in Luke 16 who DIED but was totally alive CRYING in the fire.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That does not mean that it is not a parable. A parable is simply a fictitious story from which a moral or religious lesson may be drawn. There is no rule that people mentioned in it can't be given a name, or that references to real places can't be used. Consider these parables:

Luke 12:16-21 (WEB):

(16) He spoke a parable to them, saying, “The ground of a certain rich man produced abundantly.​

(17) He reasoned within himself, saying, ‘What will I do, because I don’t have room to store my crops?’​

(18) He said, ‘This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.​

(19) I will tell my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.”’​

(20) “But God said to him, ‘You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’​

(21) So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”​

Luke 10:30-37 (WEB):

(30) Jesus answered, “A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.​

(31) By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side.​

(32) In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.​

(33) But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion,​

(34) came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.​

(35) On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, ‘Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.’​

(36) Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?”​

(37) He said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”​

The first parable includes mention of God, whom I'm sure you agree is a real person. The second parable mentions Jerusalem and Jericho, which are real locations.

It isn't a parable.
But even if it was , the message is the same.

I think people want it to be a parable.
That way the real meaning can be adjusted to their doctrine.

The polling needs to be:
" how many that say it is not a Parable change the meaning?"

That us the real issue.
"How can it fit my doctrine"
"What can be rearranged, reframed, and spiritualized to fit my mind"

 

[rebuilder 454]

That does not mean that it is not a parable. A parable is simply a fictitious story from which a moral or religious lesson may be drawn. There is no rule that people mentioned in it can't be given a name, or that references to real places can't be used. Consider these parables:

Luke 12:16-21 (WEB):

(16) He spoke a parable to them, saying, “The ground of a certain rich man produced abundantly.​

(17) He reasoned within himself, saying, ‘What will I do, because I don’t have room to store my crops?’​

(18) He said, ‘This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.​

(19) I will tell my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.”’​

(20) “But God said to him, ‘You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’​

(21) So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”​

Luke 10:30-37 (WEB):

(30) Jesus answered, “A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead.​

(31) By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side.​

(32) In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side.​

(33) But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion,​

(34) came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.​

(35) On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, ‘Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.’​

(36) Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?”​

(37) He said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”​

The first parable includes mention of God, whom I'm sure you agree is a real person. The second parable mentions Jerusalem and Jericho, which are real locations.

Let's assume it is a parable.
Is there a place, as the "parable" indicates?
Who are the players if not Abraham, the rich men and Lazarus?
What is the message?

Compare that message to a " non parable" lesson of the rich man and Lazarus .

What changes?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Life after Death

Before attempting any serious interpretation of this remarkable parable, it is essential to establish clearly that it does not present an actual depiction of life after death. Anyone reading this story literally, as a believer in the immortality of the soul, is likely to be led astray.

While Luke’s Gospel does not explicitly label it a parable, the same is true of the story of the unjust steward. Both begin with the words, “There was a certain rich man…” Yet who would insist that the unjust steward was a real person known to Jesus? Indeed, verse 15 requires interpretation in the context of the Pharisees.

Detail after detail in the story becomes absurd if taken literally: “In hell the rich man lifted up his eyes and saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom… Send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.” Do disembodied souls truly have eyes, fingers, tongues, or bosoms? And what use would one drop of water be in a place of unquenchable fire? Clearly, Jesus crafted these details to impress the audience with their impossibility.

Consider, too, the idea that part of the joy of the blessed hereafter would consist of constantly observing the damned in torment. What kind of everlasting happiness could this be? Lazarus is described as resting in Abraham’s bosom, yet is this meant to be taken literally as the eternal state of all righteous people? The parable provides no indication that the rich man was wicked or Lazarus inherently virtuous. In fact, the rich man is shown as loving toward his brothers. Should we then conclude that wealth in this life leads automatically to hell, and misery guarantees eternal bliss? Such reasoning is absurd, Abraham himself enjoyed considerable wealth in life (Gen. 13:2, etc.).

Finally, the parable concludes with a strong emphasis on the teaching of Moses and the prophets. What do they say about the state of the dead? “Abraham… was gathered to his people” (Gen. 25:8), yet his people were idol-worshippers (Josh. 24:2). Regarding Joseph’s death, Jacob lamented: “I shall go down to the grave (Hades) unto my son mourning” (Gen. 37:35). Similarly, Jonah cried from the belly of the fish (Jonah 2:1-2), which he mistakenly believed to be a kind of hell. Hezekiah, facing death, acknowledged: “The grave (Hades) cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee… the living, the living, he shall praise thee” (Isa. 38:10, 18-19).

Taken literally, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is one of the most fragile foundations for belief in disembodied immortality.

So why, then, did Jesus frame his teaching around such an obviously false concept?

QUOTE
"it is essential to establish clearly that it does not present an actual depiction of life after death. "

SMH
I Told you guys the REASON they NEED it to be a parable.

HOW IN THE WORLD do you miss the FACT of the story, that THEY WENT ON IN SPIRIT AFTER DEATH.????

IT IS LITTERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS!!!!!

YOU WALKED UP TO THE BARN AND FIRED THE SHOTGUN FROM 2 FT AWAY AND MISSED THE BARN !!!!

IS THIS SOME SILLY WATCHTOWER DEAL?????

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why don't you just accept what Jesus said, the rich man DIED and is in torment in fire, crying! It's clearly literal.

@Hiddenthings
"the rich man represents israel"

Lol

Plain comical

 

[rebuilder 454]

The actual op should be;
" my butcher job of the rich man and Lazarus"
" how to reinvent Jesus words and present him as confused"

This has to be watchtower of some similar spirits at work.

 

[Jack]

“And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.” Luke 16:26

Us and you.

Luke 16:26, the Greek uses the plural pronoun hymas (“you [plural]”), not the singular se (“thee”). That small grammatical choice signals that the “rich man” is not just an individual but stands as a representative figure of a larger group.

So that they which would pass . . . cannot The Gk. conjunction suggests that the great gulf is there for that very purpose.

You sound so JW!

 

[Jack]

The rich man represents Israel,

TBC...

Or maybe he represents you?

 

[walter]

Some scriptures say words about eternal fire and torment, other scriptures say the Wicked will simply vanish, you will look for them and they will be nowhere to be found.

The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, is no longer burning, so that means the words "Everlasting Fire" is not to be taking literally, so why are we taking the words "eternal torment" literally? Especially when the other scriptures clearly say: "they will vanish" "be cut off" "be burned up" "will not receive their inheritance" "will not get life" "will be destroyed"

 

[Jack]

Some scriptures say words about eternal fire and torment, other scriptures say the Wicked will simply vanish, you will look for them and they will be nowhere to be found.

Scripture please.

The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, is no longer burning, so that means the words "Everlasting Fire" is not to be taking literally, so why are we taking the words "eternal torment" literally? Especially when the other scriptures clearly say: "they will vanish" "be cut off" "be burned up" "will not receive their inheritance" "will not get life" "will be destroyed"

Guess you haven't read the Bible.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[walter]

Scripture please.

Guess you haven't read the Bible.

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

First I need to know what verses you are quoting. Your first post did not include any only commentary. The main verse that I would quote would be Matt. 25:46 which contrasts eternal punishment with eternal life so this is not a verse that you can ignore. The Bible explains these ones: shall be...

www.christianforums.com

Eternal punishment or destruction

Thanks. Did you get a chance to watch the video by Walt in post #3? Let me know what you think. Not yet, I have been pretty busy the past few days. I’ll try watching soon as I get the opportunity.

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Jack]

Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

First I need to know what verses you are quoting. Your first post did not include any only commentary. The main verse that I would quote would be Matt. 25:46 which contrasts eternal punishment with eternal life so this is not a verse that you can ignore. The Bible explains these ones: shall be...

www.christianforums.com

Then why is Hell mentioned at least 14 times in the NT???

 

[walter]

Then why is Hell mentioned at least 14 times in the NT???

Hell it's a real place Job prayed to go there.

AMP
“Oh, that You would hide me in Sheol (the nether world, the place of the dead), That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would set a definite time and then remember me [and in Your lovingkindness imprint me on your heart]! Job 14:13

EXB
“I wish you would hide me in ·the grave [L Sheol; C the grave or the underworld]; ·hide [conceal] me until your anger is gone. I wish you would set a ·time [limit] and then remember me! Job 14:13

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me? Job 14:13

WYC
Who giveth this to me, that thou defend me in hell, and that thou hide me, till thy great vengeance pass; and that thou set to me a time, in which thou have mind on me? (I wish, that thou would hide me in Sheol, yea, that thou would hide me until thy great vengeance pass; and then that thou would set a time for me, in which thou would remember me!) Job 14:13

NLV
“If only You would hide me in the place of the dead! If only You would hide me until Your anger is past, and set a time for me and remember me! Job 14:13

The common word for “grave” in the Old Testament is queber. It is translated "Sheol" is found sixty-four times, being rendered “grave” thirty-one times, “hell” thirty-one times, and “pit” three times.

 

[Jack]

Hell it's a real place Job prayed to go there.

AMP
“Oh, that You would hide me in Sheol (the nether world, the place of the dead), That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would set a definite time and then remember me [and in Your lovingkindness imprint me on your heart]! Job 14:13

EXB
“I wish you would hide me in ·the grave [L Sheol; C the grave or the underworld]; ·hide [conceal] me until your anger is gone. I wish you would set a ·time [limit] and then remember me! Job 14:13

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me? Job 14:13

WYC
Who giveth this to me, that thou defend me in hell, and that thou hide me, till thy great vengeance pass; and that thou set to me a time, in which thou have mind on me? (I wish, that thou would hide me in Sheol, yea, that thou would hide me until thy great vengeance pass; and then that thou would set a time for me, in which thou would remember me!) Job 14:13

NLV
“If only You would hide me in the place of the dead! If only You would hide me until Your anger is past, and set a time for me and remember me! Job 14:13

Your comment was "Hell doesn't exist".

My comment was "Hell is mentioned at least 14 times in the NT".

Matthew 5:22
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.