The rich man and the beggar at his gate?

[bbyrd009]

Although respectfully He doesn't say where hell is.

the location of Gehenna is known though, right

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It's confusing to me, but the mindset seems to be if he'll doesn't exist " how will we be vindicated"?

Been thinking about your question. Seems to tie in with taking reward now as the Pharisees who stood before men painting their faces with ashes and long prayers yet He said their hearts were far from Him. In my opinion Paul speaks of two rewards in 1 Corinthians 9:15-18 the reward of glorying in the flesh where they have their reward...or that done of necessity...Against the will of man. Christ said the same in Luke 22:42-43 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. [43] And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

“But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. [16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! [17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [18] What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.”

Colossians 1:24-25 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: [25] Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Hebrews 10:32-39 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; [33] Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. [34] For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. [35] Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. [36] For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. [37] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38] Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [39] But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

“But if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God : wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Long way around why is the thought of hell appointed and awaiting a brother pleasurable? Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[bbyrd009]

That makes no sense. If there's no hell, Christians didn't curse anyone to hell.

but the point is that they condemned i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

But we are not of those drawing back to destruction, but of faith to the preserving of the soul.
Strong's Greek: 4047. περιποίησις (peripoiésis) -- preservation, acquisition
iow not from sozo, might even read to the acquisition of the soul.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But we are not of those drawing back to destruction, but of faith to the preserving of the soul.
Strong's Greek: 4047. περιποίησις (peripoiésis) -- preservation, acquisition
iow not from sozo, might even read to the acquisition of the soul.

I don’t know. After you posted on soul yesterday I did look up it up and, honestly, I have no idea. Not even sure I know what the soul is. A few thoughts or maybe questions concerning “soul”

Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. [10] For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Proverbs 11:17 The merciful man doeth good to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

“Which war against the soul” why does fleshly lust war against the soul?

Luke 17:32-36 Remember Lot's wife. [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not even sure concerning “soul sleep” but when thinking of soul sleep
Ephesians 5:14 comes to mind “Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.”

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:10-11 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [11] Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Renniks]

but the point is that they condemned i guess

What are we saved from?
Why did Christ have to die if everyone is gonna end up in paradise anyway?

 

[bbyrd009]

I don’t know. After you posted on soul yesterday I did look up it up and, honestly, I have no idea. Not even sure I know what the soul is.

well fwiw "soul" and "life" are apparently interchangeable in Scripture

(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed

i would sure say the air def got let out of my (life) balloon, so to speak, at one point

“Which war against the soul” why does fleshly lust war against the soul?

for that i would read some other xlations, and there it seems to me "as aliens" is the functional part of understanding why,
New International Version
Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.

New Living Translation
Dear friends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against your very souls.

English Standard Version
Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.

Berean Study Bible
Beloved, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul.

Berean Literal Bible
Beloved, I exhort you as aliens and sojourners, to abstain from fleshly desires, which war against the soul,

New American Standard Bible
Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

but i guess contemplating how a what we call "illegal" alien--which is really the height of Chutzpah in that context lol--misbehaving would likely be perceived by the culture is worth a clue too

[33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

wherein v33 becomes a great hide imo, to make it a little easier to imagine that 2 diff ppl are being discussed, rather than one
has someone reading this not done both of the things in v33?
any reason i couldnt accomplish both of those again before sunset?

 

[bbyrd009]

What are we saved from?

well, that changes as one's walk progresses i guess, although the Bible gives many examples right. So all i can suggest is dont be surprised if what it is not is some imaginary place of torture that ppl who believe differently than us mostly goto after literal death. Pick a v and we could see tho i guess

Why did Christ have to die if everyone is gonna end up in paradise anyway?

well first hopefully i didnt infer "paradise?" cuz i dont yet know what we will become, and frankly literal death is the farthest thing from my mind anyway, esp in any connection with Christ, so imo for that part which i understand is the whole point to you right now, i gotta say that we are prolly...initially misdirected at first, Apollos waters, and if you honestly answered what did you go out into the wilderness to see? it would provide a starting point for understanding why that assumption is so universal.

and second, which is the first part up there, why did Christ have to die, imo we are told that Jesus had to die bc Caiaphas prophesied that it would be better that one man die than all perish, which imo is a perfectly decent illustration of why Christ-in-us "had to" die, back when we were 7 years old or whatever prolly younger and we killed Him all by ourselves, once we put ourselves in Caiaphas' place. To me its a story about how we founded "the world," or fit ourselves into society, finished forming our egos, something like that. One can even reflect back and remember some key life choices made while young

I know we are taught that Jesus had to die to make us acceptable to Yah somehow, right? But you cannot support that with Scripture, weird as that sounds, and what you can Support is basically the exact, opposite concept,
Who told you that you were naked?
I desire mercy, not sacrifice

and i might also ask why is it you supposed to somehow spiritually i guess "die" if Jesus already died "for" you?
"Jesus died for our sins" ends up being quite a bit diff than
Christ died for our sins, as the first is a literal person dying "for" us, right,
(which cant be Quoted) (No son of man may die for another's sins,)
while the second is Spirit, and "died for our sins" in a different definition of "for"

imo

but after all I cam that you might have life, more abundantly right

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 is clearly spoken of as dead, buried, and
relocated in a place called haides with Abraham and Lazarus within earshot
right across from him. (Luke 16:22-23)

Christ is clearly spoken of as dead, buried, and located in the same place
(Acts 2:25-32)

Now the interesting thing is: when Jesus passed away on the cross, he
entrusted his pneuma to God (Luke 23:46) but it's his psuche that's said to
be in haides (Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31)

From that I think we can safely conclude that the rich man was in haides by
means of his psuche too. (The difference between pneuma and psuche is
disputed)

NOTE: Some folk insist that haides is limited to the grave; but if so, then it's
fair to conclude that folk dead and buried are able to communicate with each
other just as Abraham and the rich man.
_

 

[VictoryinJesus]

wherein v33 becomes a great hide imo, to make it a little easier to imagine that 2 diff ppl are being discussed, rather than one
has someone reading this not done both of the things in v33?
any reason i couldnt accomplish both of those again before sunset?

Don’t think it is two different people.
Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

 

[bbyrd009]

Don’t think it is two different people.
Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

which is also btw straight out of eastern philosophy, through Stoicism i think? for us

ha, check the hits when you search the two together

 

[VictoryinJesus]

which is also btw straight out of eastern philosophy, through Stoicism i think? for us

ha, check the hits when you search the two together

What am I searching for the two in one bed or ...? Not sure what “eastern philosophy through Stoicism” is?

 

[bbyrd009]

What am I searching for the two in one bed or ...? Not sure what “eastern philosophy through Stoicism” is?

well, we are the Two in one Bed i guess, and the other was orig zen or dao or whatever i think yeh
Paul imported a lot of...literally all of the best wisdom of the other trees imo

 

[VictoryinJesus]

well, we are the Two in one Bed i guess,

Understand.

the other was orig zen or dao or whatever i think yeh

Here I’m lost though. It is okay. Might not be beneficial to explain as I would probably still be lost...

 

[Renniks]

and second, which is the first part up there, why did Christ have to die, imo we are told that Jesus had to die bc Caiaphas prophesied that it would be better that one man die than all perish, which imo is a perfectly decent illustration of why Christ-in-us "had to" die, back when we were 7 years old or whatever prolly younger and we killed Him all by ourselves, once we put ourselves in Caiaphas' place. To me its a story about how we founded "the world," or fit ourselves into society, finished forming our egos, something like that. One can even reflect back and remember some key life choices made while young

What in the world are you talking about? If there wasn't a hell or separation from God, why do we need to be reconciled to God by Christ's sacrifice? You just babble on and never say anything.

 

[Willie T]

Some of you might enjoy this. It relates, slightly, to this subject, and of course doesn't have to be believed at all, if you don't want to.
061225 Understanding HELLFIRE Pages 1 - 16 - Text Version | FlipHTML5
(As usual, if this is too difficult to read, I also have it in a very readable Word Document form on my computer... just ask me for it.)

These are but two tiny paragraphs from that article:
"The Bible clearly teaches the existence of hell both in the Old and New Testaments. We cannot deny that hell exists, but we intend to give, [in this paper], the proper, Scriptural understanding of what Yahweh’s Word has to say about hell."

"Because of traditional teaching, as well as myths and legends, many have the gross misconception that hell is a place of eternal torture of humans, a place where Satan reigns supreme. Yet nowhere does the Bible teach such a thing, or even that Satan lives in hell."

 

[101G]

Some of you might enjoy this. It relates, slightly, to this subject, and of course doesn't have to be believed at all, if you don't want to.
061225 Understanding HELLFIRE Pages 1 - 16 - Text Version | FlipHTML5
(As usual, if this is too difficult to read, I also have it in a very readable Word Document form on my computer... just ask me for it.)

These are but two tiny paragraphs from that article:
"The Bible clearly teaches the existence of hell both in the Old and New Testaments. We cannot deny that hell exists, but we intend to give, in this paper, the proper, Scriptural understanding of what Yahweh’s Word has to say about hell."

"Because of traditional teaching, as well as myths and legends, many have the gross misconception that hell is a place of eternal torture of humans, a place where Satan reigns supreme. Yet nowhere does the Bible teach such a thing, or even that Satan lives in hell."

GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply and link. second, I read the link, just click the box under the more button where it says full screen and one can see it perfectly. but the part about the rich man in hell confirmed exactly what I said. but the writer of paper failed in the reasoning of the condition of the rich man being in hell. he said, "the rich man had mental agony, and that he had a tongue, eyes, and ears, but no soul". well that's a mistake. if one had eyes, to see, and ears to hear, ect... that consciousness which require a "soul", which the writer say he didn't have. for dead men, (that's natural or physical death), has no eyes to see, or ears to hear. because we do not see with our eyes or hear with our ears, and contrary to popular belief we don't see nor hear with our brains. no, it is the soul that perceives, so that confirm that the rich man had not yet physically died. but as said had an out of body experience. he was in the spiritual domain, that's how he could hear and see..ect...

but it was an interesting article on hell.

thanks very much for the link.

PICJAG.

 

[bbyrd009]

Here I’m lost though. It is okay. Might not be beneficial to explain as I would probably still be lost...

well, Paul imported a lot of concepts from other schools of thought--google can even provide lists--and that one is said to be via Stoicism i guess, although it was likely imported from Dao by them. "Paul of Tarsus Stoic" yeh that works ok, "Christianity and Stoicism" too i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

What in the world are you talking about? If there wasn't a hell or separation from God, why do we need to be reconciled to God by Christ's sacrifice? You just babble on and never say anything.

bc we are bloodthirsty, and imagine that Yah is too i guess. So, if you go out into the wilderness to see miracles and get an "afterlife" and immortality, you get Zeus and Apollos (and the Elysian Fields), i guess, pretty much whats in the Bible there, in code. But the story of Esau and the red stew is not going anywhere eh. "Hell" just is not the same concept as Gehenna, which is right here on Erets

Death, More Abundantly just is not life, more abundantly, and being in the camp is what we do before we leave the camp

ok have a nice day ok, i know this is not easy stuff to contemplate, and imo what you "believe" right now is fine, there is no judgement for beliefs anyway, its where our faith is that matters right