John the Baptist said: "He must increase, but I must decrease" (John 3.30).
The Righteousness of God
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I pulled out this part because in this difficult discussion, (difficult for me anyway - it tests the very limits of my intelligence!) I can't even try to think about the rest of your post because this stops me and I can't get past it.
Are you saying a righteous man does not do righteously? A righteous man does what is right. As with the 2 sons epi mentioned, the one in the end who DID what his father said was the righteous one. The other son, in the end, did not DO what his father asked, even though he said he would.
This ties into wisdom is shown to be right by her results.
So aren't we looking, not at the here and now, but more at the end results?
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Wisdom is shown to be right by her results. Neither son could be said to be righteous just by what they said (yes I will or no I wont) because just saying you will or wont isn't the end result and the one who said no or the one who said yes does not determine who blew it. The end result determines that.
The faith that saves you is not just what you say. It is also the end results.
Sorry if that isn't clear. This is difficult for my mind.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
'I am not ashamed of the gospel......for in it is the righteousness of God revealed....' Romans 1:16-17
I am saying that the Lord declares the ungodly person to be righteous according to this verse (Romans 4:5).
In doing so, He calls those things which be not as though they were (Romans 4:17).
So the ungodly person is made righteous, by faith.
If a righteous person commits an ungodly act, it does not change his righteous standing before the Lord. He is righteous not because of his performance but because of his faith in Jesus.
Because he is righteous, he will do what is righteous (1 John 3:7).
But it is not the other way around. He is righteous, not because he does what is righteous, he is righteous because of his faith in Jesus Christ.
If someone is righteous through faith in Jesus, righteous behaviour will surely follow.
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To be justified is to be declared righteous. And it is impossible for God to lie.
To be forgiven is to have your sins forgiven, which is, in a sense, to be declared righteous before God.
Gaaah! I can't do it. My mind will NOT do it. There is something wrong...justified and righteous cannot be the same exact thing. At least not where there is no humility.
I think I could be seeing...oh heck, I honestly can't explain. Its in the USE of it that I object.
I think I could be seeing...oh heck, I honestly can't explain. Its in the USE of it that I object.
Well it doesn't help. Because if it then leads to someone saying : even if I then act unrighteously, I am still righteous, then this is wrong. Its not in any way grounded in reality!
I can see saying: I am forgiven, even after I act in an unrighteous manner, because He is everforgiving and patient with me, but to say, at the point where I act unrighteously, that I am righteous? No. In fact, if I was trusting Him and following Him, I would not dare act unrighteously and then say about it, oh well, despite acting unrighteously, I am nevertheless righteous.
I can see saying: I am forgiven, even after I act in an unrighteous manner, because He is everforgiving and patient with me, but to say, at the point where I act unrighteously, that I am righteous? No. In fact, if I was trusting Him and following Him, I would not dare act unrighteously and then say about it, oh well, despite acting unrighteously, I am nevertheless righteous.
My objection is still to the USE of it. My objection is not to babies soiling themselves or being expected to.
My objection is to...the whole wobbly tower. To the shoddy workmanship...
My objection is to...the whole wobbly tower. To the shoddy workmanship...
See Romans 4:5, the application of it is that we are declared righteous because of our faith even though we are ungodly, our identity in Christ is that we are righteous even when we blow it.
Our righteousness in Christ is not based on our performance, but on our faith in Christ.
So then, now that you have this wonderful identity in Christ (you are righteous because of your faith in Him); go and live like that identity is yours.
Iow, go and live like someone who is truly righteous, even as it is spoken of in 1 John 3:7.
Look at it this way:
God is not going to condemn us for individual sins here and there.
God wants us to understand that in Him, our identity is that we are the righteousness of God in Christ.
He wants us to live like we have that identity, so He gives us that identity as a free gift, regardless of our behaviour.
He expects our behaviour to be affected by our new identity.
Our righteousness in Christ is not based on our performance, but on our faith in Christ.
So then, now that you have this wonderful identity in Christ (you are righteous because of your faith in Him); go and live like that identity is yours.
Iow, go and live like someone who is truly righteous, even as it is spoken of in 1 John 3:7.
Look at it this way:
God is not going to condemn us for individual sins here and there.
God wants us to understand that in Him, our identity is that we are the righteousness of God in Christ.
He wants us to live like we have that identity, so He gives us that identity as a free gift, regardless of our behaviour.
He expects our behaviour to be affected by our new identity.
I think the difficulty you are having is with the contrast of forgiveness with being justified. To be righteous IS to be justified. In other languages, like French... the word for righteousness is 'la justice". So then indeed to be justified is to be deemed righteous.
Forgiveness is different I think. We forgive people, not because they ARE righteous....but because they are not. Forgiveness is an attitude that says...I want that person to BE righteous...so then my example of forgiveness will help that person. So hopefully our attitude CHANGES into one of righteousness after we have been forgiven. Righteous people still sin...but they can repent, ask forgiveness...make restitution...etc
But for those who continue in unrighteousness after they are forgiven...
Amos 9:10 All the sinners among my people will die by the sword, all those who say, 'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'
The construct is wrong. In trying to systematically build it, we have wound up off by a lot in places. Measure twice, cut once, I guess...
This is a slogan that has caused a lot of erroneous thinking and a laissez-faire attitude to sin in general. It's the wrong focus.
It would be like singing ♪ "Just as I'm not' ♪
Okay, yes, to be righteous is to be justified. My objection is to HOW it is all used. (Sometimes, by some men.)
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