The Road to Life is Norrow?

[ATP]

Thank you all, but I now believe Gods love never fails,like the Bible says. I have read 100s of verses supporting the fact that Jesus is the Savoir of the world. The Bible makes much more sense now. We are all saved..but not at the same time. Our Father works through the agese to complete His will for the salvation of all. Few ever find Life in this age. But there are more to come. For all died through Adam but in Christ all will be made alive. The word Sheol means place of the dead or grave. It has been translated as grave, pit and hell. It means place of the dead, not hell. The word often mistranslated as eternal means "pertaining to ages"or of the ages. Try a literal translation like Youngs. Jesus is the Savoir of the world. This is the Good News.

Good post Caffus.

 

[Angelina]

Uncle Wiki says that...
The Hebrew meaning of the word "Sheol" is known as a place of the dead where the righteous and unrighteous go. A place of darkness, cut off from life and from God. When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek, the word "Hades" was substituted for "sheol" (underworld). A place of the dead and a place that represents the very presence of evil.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

Revelation 20:13, 14, 15.
The bible tells us that death and "Hades" gave up their dead and all who were in there were judged according to their works. Then death and "Hades" were thrown into the lake of fire. Anyone not found in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire.

The good news is this that no-one needs to go there 1 John 1 says...
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 10 tells us
8 ... This is the message of faith that we proclaim: 9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation. 11 Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame

 

[ATP]

Uncle Wiki says that...
The Hebrew meaning of the word "Sheol" is known as a place of the dead where the righteous and unrighteous go. A place of darkness, cut off from life and from God. When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek, the word "Hades" was substituted for "sheol" (underworld). A place of the dead and a place that represents the very presence of evil.

Uncle Wiki is incorrect. How can evil exist in a place where there is no life?

 

[Angelina]

Jewish Encyclopedia ~ Sheol (Even the Jews believed in Sheol being a place where the dead congregated)

It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as

(Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or

(Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol

 

[ATP]

Jewish Encyclopedia ~ Sheol (Even the Jews believed in Sheol being a place where the dead congregated)

It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, "toward the setting of the sun"); hence it is designated as

(Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or

(Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as "opening her mouth" (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (ib. xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with "farthest corners" (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. "uttermost parts of the pit"), one beneath the other (see Jew. Encyc. v. 217, s. v. Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol

I see you're following false prophets. Very good.

 

[Angelina]

So the Jews aren't keepers of their own culture, history or beliefs prior to the cross?

 

[Born_Again]

I see you're following false prophets. Very good.

I don't follow.. Can you elaborate?

 

[Angelina]

Oh...and those "Judaic Jewish believers ergo; False prophets" as you called them...Also wrote about their understanding of Gehenna...
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Gehenna-Jewish-Views-of-the-Afterlife.htm

 

[aspen]

...............

 

[Angelina]

aspen you are sooo funny!!!

 

[ATP]

So the Jews aren't keepers of their own culture, history or beliefs prior to the cross?

Yeah, and most Jews don't even believe in the resurrection or the coming Messiah. Sheol/Hades is the grave, nothing more. It is where dead bodies go to await the resurrection or the great white throne. As we see in Eccl 12:7 the breath of life is taken out of the person upon death. Without the breath of life there is no life. 1+1=2. Also, in Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 it states that the dead know nothing, and in sheol there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. - ATP

Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

Eccl 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Angelina]

Yeah, and most Jews don't even believe in the resurrection or the coming Messiah. Sheol/Hades is the grave, nothing more. It is where dead bodies go to await the resurrection or the great white throne. As we see in Eccl 12:7 the breath of life is taken out of the person upon death. Without the breath of life there is no life. 1+1=2. Also, in Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 it states that the dead know nothing, and in sheol there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. - ATP

Well actually most Judaic believers do believe in the resurrection otherwise they would not believe that some had gone down to sheol/hades/Gehenna and that sheol/Gehenna has a time limit on it for some because it's a place of punishment. They also believe in the coming Messiah. They do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah because it had always been understood that the Messiah comes as a conqueror until they read Isaiah 53...

Eccl 9:5 NIVFor the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.Eccl 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.Eccl 12:7 NIV and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Yes I've read those scriptures on a SDA site that refutes the idea of the living dead. The book of Ecclesiastes was traditionally believed to be written with a view of life through human eyes without God. The term used being "Under the sun" denotes such meaning. It is also interesting to note that this book may have been the earliest example of debate between faith and reason. As I have pointed out...Judaic Jews believe in the gathering of the dead in Gehenna/Hades/Sheol. This therefore gives rise to the idea that the theme of this book is mainly about the vanity and hopelessness of man kind under the sun without God. Just as it is read on the Shabbat days of Sukkot as a reminder that without God, life is meaningless.

 

[ATP]

Yes I've read those scriptures on a SDA site that refutes the idea of the living dead. The book of Ecclesiastes was traditionally believed to be written with a view of life through human eyes without God. The term used being "Under the sun" denotes such meaning. It is also interesting to note that this book may have been the earliest example of debate between faith and reason. As I have pointed out...Judaic Jews believe in the gathering of the dead in Gehenna/Hades/Sheol. This therefore gives rise to the idea that the theme of this book is mainly about the vanity and hopelessness of man kind under the sun without God. Just as it is read on the Shabbat days of Sukkot as a reminder that without God, life is meaningless.

Well, Eccl 9:10 literally says sheol so....

 

[Angelina]

The Jews understood the meaning and intent of this book and that is why the idea of Sheol was not debated. The emphasis was on man's view of life without God. The writer did not say that there was no life there but rather, no work. knowledge, planning or wisdom there. Ask anyone in a wheelchair who has lost the ability to function as a human being if they are still alive...

 

[ATP]

The Jews understood the meaning and intent of this book and that is why the idea of Sheol was not debated. The emphasis was on man's view of life without God. The writer did not say that there was no life there but rather, no work. knowledge, planning or wisdom there. Ask anyone in a wheelchair who has lost the ability to function as a human being if they are still alive...

But how can people be alive in sheol without the breath of life in them? Job 34:14-15 NIV, Eccl 12:7 NIV.

Also, why would death be any different in the NT than it is in the OT....

Gen 3:19 NIV By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Job 10:18-22 NIV “Why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me. 19If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight from the womb to the grave! 20Are not my few days almost over? Turn away from me so I can have a moment’s joy 21before I go to the place of no return, to the land of gloom and utter darkness, 22to the land of deepest night, of utter darkness and disorder, where even the light is like darkness.”

Job 14:10-15 NIV But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. 11As the water of a lake dries up or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, 12so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep. 13“If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! 14If someone dies, will they live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come. 15You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made.

Psa 6:4-5 NIV Turn, Lord, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. 5Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?

Psa 30:9 NIV "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?

Psa 88:9-12 NIV my eyes are dim with grief. I call to you, Lord, every day; I spread out my hands to you. 10Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you? 11Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ? 12Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

Psa 115:17 NIV It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to the place of silence;

Psalm 146:4 NIV When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Eccl 3:19-20 NIV Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath ; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

Isa 38:18 NIV For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness

Lastly, if judgment starts at death then God would be contradictory. Scripture clearly states that judgment starts on the last day, which is a term describing the first resurrection and the Great White Throne. Other terms for "the last day" are also called...

1. "the day of judgment"
2. "the end of the age"
3. "the resurrection of life or judgment"
4. "the day of God's wrath"
5. "judgment on the great Day" you know, if you're still uncertain.....

Matt 10:15 NIV Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Matt 12:36 NIV But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Matt 13:40-42 NIV “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 5:29 ESV and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 6:39 NIV And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 11:24 NIV Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

John 12:48 NIV There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Rom 2:5 NIV But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

2 Peter 2:9 NIV if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

2 Peter 3:7 NIV By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

Jude 1:6 NIV And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

- ATP

 

[newbirth]

Hi Caffus,

No worries, the Bible doesn't teach that God will torment people forever. Paul said the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

well we can disregard scripture....it changes nothing....those who do not believe will burn....
Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels



2 Thessalonians 1:6-10King James Version (KJV)
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[aspen]

I am starting to think the lake of fire is a metaphor the hearts of the self righteous who are indignate about who God is letting in to Heaven during the Judgment.....

True justice!

 

[ATP]

well we can disregard scripture....it changes nothing....those who do not believe will burn....
Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10King James Version (KJV)
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I do believe the words eternal and everlasting are used figuratively, meaning it's eternal until it ends. If punishment means burning forever then nonbelievers would have to be immortal also, but immortality is a gift from God given to believers at the first resurrection 1 Cor 15:53-54 NIV. If nonbelievers are not being clothed with immortality how can they live forever? The punishment is death, not burning forever...

Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Cor 15:26 NIV The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[newbirth]

I do believe the words eternal and everlasting are used figuratively, meaning it's eternal until it ends. If punishment means burning forever then nonbelievers would have to be immortal also, but immortality is a gift from God given to believers at the first resurrection 1 Cor 15:53-54 NIV. If nonbelievers are not being clothed with immortality how can they live forever? The punishment is death, not burning forever...

Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Cor 15:26 NIV The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Rev 20:14 NIV Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

eternal life is in Christ and Christ is eternal....it follows those who are not in Christ are dead....in this life ....at the resurrection ....at Judgement ...
The lake of fire is not quenched and the torment does not end...death and hell goes in the lake of fire....separated from God
immortality is the same as eternal life...it is only available in Christ....but then we are not talking flesh...which you seem not to have grasped the transition...both good and evil will be resurrected for judgement...the Good to eternal life in Christ....The Evil to eternal separation from God which is eternal damnation...
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


What is the victory over death and hell...??? it is that the living ...Those in Christ will no longer die/be separated from God.....

 

[ATP]

The lake of fire is not quenched and the torment does not end...death and hell goes in the lake of fire....separated from God

If the lake of fire is never quenched then death means immortality. The definition of mortality is death. Are you doing the math here?