The Sabbath Principles

[Insight]

James,

This may help you answer the question.

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. [sup]17[/sup] In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” John 5:17

Insight

Maybe another could be so bold as to answer the question?

Do you know who the first person was to break the Sabbath?

 

[James Forthwright]

--
“Nowhere in Mark 2:27 does it say or imply ANYTHING about "teaching" or "certain principles".
--

So you believe Jesus was teaching "nothing" here in Mark 2:27? Other than adhering to a day.

You are being disingenuous by replying to my response sentence by sentence and not listening to all that I’ve said in context. Though to give you credit you did reply to my response below. This is what you deleted:

“It (the Sabbath) was intended as a day of rest and blessing. The Jews corrupted that holy day and Christ demonstrated that we can still observe it following His example as God originally intended.”

That is a far cry from teaching “nothing”.

There is more if you would look closer.

The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

Well, If God designated this day for man are you saying He had no motives for doing so? Why is Jesus bringing this to their attention? And what is he implying to the audience?

--
“It was intended as a day of rest and blessing. The Jews corrupted that holy day and Christ demonstrated that we can still observe it following His example as God originally intended.
--

God may have had other motives but you're not substantiating that claim with scripture. There is a much more practical approach to discerning Christ’s words in Mark 2:27 regarding the Sabbath than over-spiritualizing a 6000 year historical precedent. The Apostles of Christ continued to observe the Sabbath after the Resurrection and Jesus prophesied that some thirty years in the future that His followers should “pray that their flight from Jerusalem be not on the Sabbath”.

(Mat 24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Which completely contradicts your supposition that the Sabbath is an every day occurrence or was to undergo any major transformation to an everyday occasion.

But you limit this teaching to a single day?

Certainly, anyone can continue to follow the basic Sabbath tenets each and every day of the week. But the vast majority of us have jobs and families and a multitude of other menial tasks that will naturally take our focus from meditating upon the Word of God & spiritual pursuits to the more mundane tasks like, “Has anyone taken out the trash?, Remember the staff meeting at 9am, Expense Reports due by 3pm, and pickup the kids from soccer practice 6pm, etc.”

--
“One of the best ways to learn about the Sabbath is experientially, i.e., actually practicing it.”
--

Yes I practice it everyday as per the Masters example.

That may well be fine for full-time Pastors and some dedicated missionaries but for the rest of us Christian believers there are a host of non-spiritual enterprises that make up the bulk of our harried days. Are you a full time Pastor?

The reposting occurred due to your limitation of Christ’s teachings, which I still feel is the case.

Yet more patronizing pablum and ‘know it all’ condescension. Do you have any more scriptures to back your wild licentious assertions for completely redefining one of the Ten Commanments? Or is all we have to look forward to from you is an endless stream of rehashes and cut ‘n paste sermonettes? It's been over a dozen posts and you've yet to get to the meat of your message.

It appears you place considerable weight on keeping a day more than understanding the good and holy motives behind it.

So we both agree the Sabbath Law (Moses) commanded the people to rest from all their labours, or as Exodus puts it, they ceased from all their works. Exo 16:22-26. God is teaching that as I rested when I did my works, so therefore you are to rest from your works.

The Sabbath is also a very practical weekly test of our obedience to God’s commandments.

(Exo 16:4) Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Do you know who the first person was to break the Sabbath?

The first recorded Sabbath transgression was Num. 15:32 A man was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. According to the express Word of the Lord, he was stoned to death outside the camp of the Israelites. Num 15:35-36 In Ex. 35:2 the death penalty was invoked for Sabbath transgression. Though we are no longer under the “curse of the Law” this former severe penalty should underscore the importance of obeying the Fourth Commandment.


. . . Still waiting for you to address my earlier post in which I listed Sabbath observance throughout history.

 

[jiggyfly]

The mandates of the whole law including the ten commandments were fulfilled by Christ.

He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. Col. 2:14-17

 

[Insight]

The mandates of the whole law including the ten commandments were fulfilled by Christ.

He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross. So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. Col. 2:14-17

Yes Jiggy

For some it takes longer to see with such clarity as you.

Be patient and James will eventually see this great truth and much more.

Insight

 

[Insight]

--


You are being disingenuous by replying to my response sentence by sentence and not listening to all that I’ve said in context. Though to give you credit you did reply to my response below. This is what you deleted:

“It (the Sabbath) was intended as a day of rest and blessing. The Jews corrupted that holy day and Christ demonstrated that we can still observe it following His example as God originally intended.”

That is a far cry from teaching “nothing”.

Mark 2:27 is structured in such a way as to illicit certain questions of the Word/Jesus. Why did Jesus flip the emphasis of the Sabbath on the Pharisees? Could it be that they had made the Sabbath day into something it was never designed for?

The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath


Cmp.


Man was made for the Sabbath and not the Sabbath for the Man


One must look behind his teachings to better comprehend their meaning.

--
“It was intended as a day of rest and blessing. The Jews corrupted that holy day and Christ demonstrated that we can still observe it following His example as God originally intended.
--

God may have had other motives but you're not substantiating that claim with scripture. There is a much more practical approach to discerning Christ’s words in Mark 2:27 regarding the Sabbath than over-spiritualizing a 6000 year historical precedent. The Apostles of Christ continued to observe the Sabbath after the Resurrection and Jesus prophesied that some thirty years in the future that His followers should “pray that their flight from Jerusalem be not on the Sabbath”.

I have seen this dismissive technique “spiritualizing “ before especially by those who resist “a better understanding” for fear of change.

(Mat 24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Which completely contradicts your supposition that the Sabbath is an every day occurrence or was to undergo any major transformation to an everyday occasion.




Certainly, anyone can continue to follow the basic Sabbath tenets each and every day of the week. But the vast majority of us have jobs and families and a multitude of other menial tasks that will naturally take our focus from meditating upon the Word of God & spiritual pursuits to the more mundane tasks like, “Has anyone taken out the trash?, Remember the staff meeting at 9am, Expense Reports due by 3pm, and pickup the kids from soccer practice 6pm, etc.”

--
“One of the best ways to learn about the Sabbath is experientially, i.e., actually practicing it.”
--

Matt 24:20 is a warning to the rebellious Jews who remained within the walls of Jerusalem and eventually perished in AD70.

The gates of the city were closed not allowing anyone to exit or enter the city. Jesus is actually stating should they uphold their "day" over getting out of the city (heeding his wanring) they will perish!!!

This actually works against your argument and not for it.

That may well be fine for full-time Pastors and some dedicated missionaries but for the rest of us Christian believers there are a host of non-spiritual enterprises that make up the bulk of our harried days. Are you a full time Pastor?

Yes and No depending on how you define full time pastor/minister.

I am trying to minister every day.

Yet more patronizing pablum and ‘know it all’ condescension. Do you have any more scriptures to back your wild licentious assertions for completely redefining one of the Ten Commanments? Or is all we have to look forward to from you is an endless stream of rehashes and cut ‘n paste sermonettes? It's been over a dozen posts and you've yet to get to the meat of your message.

I sense in you a strong resolve, which manifests itself through many fleshly and hurtful passions.

You are an intense man.

I like that.

The Sabbath is also a very practical weekly test of our obedience to God’s commandments.

(Exo 16:4) Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.




The first recorded Sabbath transgression was Num. 15:32 A man was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. According to the express Word of the Lord, he was stoned to death outside the camp of the Israelites. Num 15:35-36 In Ex. 35:2 the death penalty was invoked for Sabbath transgression. Though we are no longer under the “curse of the Law” this former severe penalty should underscore the importance of obeying the Fourth Commandment.


. . . Still waiting for you to address my earlier post in which I listed Sabbath observance throughout history.

James,

I sense you are sensitive to me teaching you anything - I get that – as I said in my OP my students and I studied this subject intensely for twelve months and we entered the study with preconceived ideas which at times we needed to remind ourselves to put to one side, if we were to discover truth.

I have a Seventh Day Adventist friend who I have spoken with extensively over the past 5 years about this subject with some interesting results. He now acknowledges the keeping of the Sabbath is NOT a requirement of the Masters disciples. Though he still adheres to the body and its imposing requirements for the sake of peace – nonetheless he now sees more clearly on this matter.

The first recorded Sabbath transgression was Num. 15:32 A man was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. According to the express Word of the Lord, he was stoned to death outside the camp of the Israelites. Num 15:35-36 In Ex. 35:2 the death penalty was invoked for Sabbath transgression. Though we are no longer under the “curse of the Law” this former severe penalty should underscore the importance of obeying the Fourth Commandment.

The actual answer to this question is not as some would expect.

Eve and Adam were the first ones to break the Sabbath Day. Because Adam was the first one who sought to do his own pleasure and when he broke the Sabbath he caused God to BREAK His day of rest and caused him to work once more to restore that Rest.

This decision was not one of being forced out of His rest! He chose out of his great love and mercy for us that He did so.

So the first pair hearing the feet of the Angel walking in the Garden saw God act.

Sin interrupted Gods rest and the blessing of sanctification was broken because of sin.

When you referred to the Law of Moses which was added as a School Master to teach Israel of their need for a savior the Law and Offerings of the Sabbath were also designed to lead them into the Lord of the Sabbath…but sadly as you stated in Matt 24:20 many chose to uphold their days and desire for the temple worship than seek liberty in Jesus Christ.

So the essential lesson for all reading this post is that Sin and its relationship to the Sabbath.

This is a key to understanding the true Sabbath in Christ.

This may carry further meaning for you!

--


You are being disingenuous by replying to my response sentence by sentence and not listening to all that I’ve said in context. Though to give you credit you did reply to my response below. This is what you deleted:

“It (the Sabbath) was intended as a day of rest and blessing. The Jews corrupted that holy day and Christ demonstrated that we can still observe it following His example as God originally intended.”

That is a far cry from teaching “nothing”.

Mark 2:27 is structured in such a way as to illicit certain questions of the Word/Jesus. Why did Jesus flip the emphasis of the Sabbath on the Pharisees? Could it be that they had made the Sabbath day into something it was never designed for?

The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath


Cmp.


Man was made for the Sabbath and not the Sabbath for the Man


One must look behind his teachings to better comprehend their meaning.

--
“It was intended as a day of rest and blessing. The Jews corrupted that holy day and Christ demonstrated that we can still observe it following His example as God originally intended.
--

God may have had other motives but you're not substantiating that claim with scripture. There is a much more practical approach to discerning Christ’s words in Mark 2:27 regarding the Sabbath than over-spiritualizing a 6000 year historical precedent. The Apostles of Christ continued to observe the Sabbath after the Resurrection and Jesus prophesied that some thirty years in the future that His followers should “pray that their flight from Jerusalem be not on the Sabbath”.

I have seen this dismissive technique “spiritualizing “ before especially by those who resist “a better understanding” for fear of change.

(Mat 24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Which completely contradicts your supposition that the Sabbath is an every day occurrence or was to undergo any major transformation to an everyday occasion.




Certainly, anyone can continue to follow the basic Sabbath tenets each and every day of the week. But the vast majority of us have jobs and families and a multitude of other menial tasks that will naturally take our focus from meditating upon the Word of God & spiritual pursuits to the more mundane tasks like, “Has anyone taken out the trash?, Remember the staff meeting at 9am, Expense Reports due by 3pm, and pickup the kids from soccer practice 6pm, etc.”

--
“One of the best ways to learn about the Sabbath is experientially, i.e., actually practicing it.”
--

Matt 24:20 is a warning to the rebellious Jews who remained within the walls of Jerusalem and eventually perish in AD70.

Not a good context given the inference Jesus is making. The gates of the city were closed not allowing anyone to exit or enter the city. Jesus is actually stating should they uphold their day over getting out of the city they will perish!!!

This actually works against your argument and not for it.

That may well be fine for full-time Pastors and some dedicated missionaries but for the rest of us Christian believers there are a host of non-spiritual enterprises that make up the bulk of our harried days. Are you a full time Pastor?

Yes and No depending on how you define full time pastor/minister.

I am trying to minister every day.

Yet more patronizing pablum and ‘know it all’ condescension. Do you have any more scriptures to back your wild licentious assertions for completely redefining one of the Ten Commanments? Or is all we have to look forward to from you is an endless stream of rehashes and cut ‘n paste sermonettes? It's been over a dozen posts and you've yet to get to the meat of your message.

I sense in you a strong resolve, which manifests itself through many fleshly and hurtful passions.

You are an intense man.

I like that.

The Sabbath is also a very practical weekly test of our obedience to God’s commandments.

(Exo 16:4) Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.




The first recorded Sabbath transgression was Num. 15:32 A man was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. According to the express Word of the Lord, he was stoned to death outside the camp of the Israelites. Num 15:35-36 In Ex. 35:2 the death penalty was invoked for Sabbath transgression. Though we are no longer under the “curse of the Law” this former severe penalty should underscore the importance of obeying the Fourth Commandment.


. . . Still waiting for you to address my earlier post in which I listed Sabbath observance throughout history.

James,

I sense you are sensitive to me teaching you anything - I get that – as I said in my OP my students and I studied this subject intensely for twelve months and we entered the study with preconceived ideas which at times we needed to remind ourselves to put to one side, if we were to discover truth.

I have a Seventh Day Adventist friend who I have spoken with extensively over the past 5 years about this subject with some interesting results. He now acknowledges the keeping of the Sabbath is NOT a requirement of the Masters disciples. Though he still adheres to the body and its imposing requirements for the sake of peace – nonetheless he now sees more clearly on this matter.

The first recorded Sabbath transgression was Num. 15:32 A man was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. According to the express Word of the Lord, he was stoned to death outside the camp of the Israelites. Num 15:35-36 In Ex. 35:2 the death penalty was invoked for Sabbath transgression. Though we are no longer under the “curse of the Law” this former severe penalty should underscore the importance of obeying the Fourth Commandment.

.
The actual answer to this question is not as some would expect.
.
Eve and Adam were the first ones to break the Sabbath Day (which had no evening and morning!). Because Adam was the first one who sought to do his own pleasure and when he broke the Sabbath he caused God to BREAK His day of rest and caused him to work once more to restore that Rest.

This decision was not one of being forced out of His rest! He chose out of his great love and mercy for us that He did so.
.
So the first pair hearing the feet of the Angel walking in the Garden saw God act.
.
Sin interrupted Gods rest and the blessing of sanctification was broken because of sin.
.
When you referred to the Law of Moses which was added as a School Master to teach Israel of their need for a savior the Law and Offerings of the Sabbath were also designed to lead them into the Lord of the Sabbath…but sadly as you stated in Matt 24:20 many chose to uphold their days and desire for the temple worship than seek liberty in Jesus Christ.

So the essential lesson for all reading this post is that of Sin and its relationship to the Sabbath.

This is a key to understanding the true Sabbath in Christ.

Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. [sup]17[/sup] In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” John 5:17

So it was that Yahweh began working again to reinstitute the Sabbath. It has taken him thousands of years through his work with Israel and then Jesus Christ and still to come a millennium age before that final Sabbath Rest will be achieved.

So do we find Christ working and performing miracles on the Sabbath?

Jesus was physically and spiritually working with his Father to restore the Rest that was lost in Eden.

You will recall the Scribes and Pharisee often criticizing the Lord and his disciples for working on the Sabbath Day.

We now see his answer in a new light!

John 5:17

“My Father (Yahweh) has been working until now (from when?), and I (Jesus) have been working.” (from his birth)

In fact my Father and I are doing the same work and you are accusing me of breaking the Sabbath when I am actually trying to reinstate it.

Mankind that broke the Sabbath because of sin – these Pharisees failed to realised the Masters whole life work was to assist his Father in restoring the Eden Sabbath.

Insight

 

[Insight]

I’m always wary of those that have to resort to re-defining terms to fit their personal doctrine. We've already seen that the Sabbath was observed in the OT and in the Millenium. At the end of this post I'll document New Testament Sabbath observance.

I am not concerned with what “other” denominations have done in the past. Most of them are polluted with platonic doctrine.

That is true, however, this “change” did not effect the Ten Commandments (of which the Sabbath remains an integral part).

To them that are without law (Gentiles), as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law of Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 1 Cor 9:21

Can you please distinguish the difference between the Mosaic Law and the Law of Christ?

What scriptural backing do you have for the Sabbath Rest not to be observed NOW as it was in the past.

Have you considered the possibility that your new-age Protestant dispensationalist and Roman Catholic views which nullify Sabbath observance for the present day may be not be the “spiritual fulfillment” that you think it is? We’ve all had to change our spiritual perceptions as we mature in the Lord.

I hope to expound these in due course, some of which we have looked at already.

--
One of Jesus’ titles is “Lord of the Sabbath”. Is Jesus the Lord of day that few modern Christians care to acknowledge?
--

Yes he is Lord of the Day in that all of the principles in the day have been fulfilled in him.

As we shall see!

Because that’s what the Word of God teaches, with a few exceptions, the Sabbath was historically (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) i.e., ONE DAY A WEEK. It's never a constant state of rest even in the Millenium.

Yes you will know sin is bound during this age however after this age is the Rest of God eternal.

--
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Again, we must consider the context in which the word "Sabbath" appears. The previous passage provides that context. Which is about "judging others" in their performance of the Law of God. We are not to be as the Pharisees going about condemning how others observe the Sabbath or what they choose to eat or drink. But this verse does not lend credence for the elimination of the Sabbath any more than it does for the elimination of food.



You’ve yet to clarify what these principles are all about.

According the same NT writer (Paul), we still see through a glass darkly and know only in part (hence shadows remain).

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


It is precisely in the Millenium that the Sabbath rest begins to be ultimately fulfilled. Not NOW!

Can you supply even one verse where Paul is making tents or travelling on the Sabbath?

The Law could not provide a complete rest from the works of flesh, or of sin, for it only emphasised the reality of man's failure to keep God's law (Rom 7:7,8,9,10). This pointed forward to the invitation of Christ: "Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Mat. 11:28).
Are you able to provide a commandment of Christ or Paul instructing believe to keep the Sabbath day and “all” it legal requirements?
A Life in Christ comprises the true Sabbath rest as we shall discover.

---
I already mentioned at the beginning of the previous message that THERE ARE A NUMBER TYPES OF LAW. No one claims that they are “coming under bondage to the Law” by continuing to not use the Lord’s name in vain, refraining from stealing, murdering or coveting, etc. How is that the Fourth Commandment that is the only one of the Ten Commandments that you consider as “bondage” to the Law?
----

For some reason which you are yet to divulge why this particular Law has been singled out by you to follow, I dear say you don’t keep that day as Israel did under their Law. And not wanting to offend you I know you cannot keep that law perfectly.


The Hebrew “Sabbath” is "shabbat" meaning "rest," from a root denoting "to repose." Sabbaths are appointed for the seventh day (Exod 20:10), some eighth of first days (Lev 23:39), as well as movable days called "high days" (John 19:31). There were sabbaths of different lengths such as a day (Exo. 16:23-29), a year (Lev. 25:4), and even seventy years (2Chr 36:21). During the wilderness wanderings, a miracle occurred every sabbath in that the manna, which on every other day went bad if kept, was preserved for that day. This pointed forward to the manna of eternal life, promised by the Lord, to be supplied on the seventh millennium from creation (Rev. 2:17).
Of course you could not possibly keep this day and your continued claims that you do actually misrepresent the day under the Law.
Whatever day you keep it is not the Sabbath’s and their offerings.

I agree with your conclusion. Jesus expanded on the initial commandment to include to include brotherly anger as well. However, the initial commandment, i.e., Thou shall not kill, remains a viable statute which also must still be observed. Your proposal regarding the Sabbath ‘throws the baby out with the bath water’.

The Law of Christ is the Spirit written upon hearts and not the Letter engraved in stone. The flesh could not uphold the righteousness of the stone writings so they were removed and replaced with a Law that offered mercy and forgiveness which the Law could not offer.

The key word is “perceive”. It doesn’t matter what the Pharisee’s perceived, Christ knew that He was always doing God’s perfect and higher Will. So no actual transgressions of the Law took place because the Son of God told. As you stated, “Jesus takes the Laws back to the heart and mind to better understand the Spirit.” In the same light:


Our Heavenly Father is very practical. He knows what’s best for His creations. He knows that man needs rest and gives us a blessing of a weekly day of Sabbath rest. Many modern medical doctors also acknowledge the clinical benefits of circumcision. We shouldn’t consider continuing to receive the blessings of prior covenant signs of our spiritual forefathers as “bondage”.

Special pleading is where one argues a position which is unsupported by Scripture.

You understand what is true But you add the But…..

The Law and commands of Christ are sufficient for us But….

I’m not familiar with that term, Insight. Do you make this stuff up as you go along? Instead of addressing what I’ve said you’ve resorted to two word excuses for not replying sensibly. Circumcision has stood the test of time (~4000 years) and is practiced by Jews, Moslems and many Christians and is supported by modern medicine. This is a fact, not "special pleading" (whatever that means).

Do you also enforce circumcision?

--
The “it” was certain ordinances that were contrary to us. Again, there are a host of other biblical laws. (The Jews number them totaling 613). There is NOTHING contrary about hallowing the Sabbath. We just need to be mindful of not judging the particulars of how others sanctify that day.
--



You’ve the one doing the “excluding”. Last time I checked the Sabbath was still included in the Ten Commandments which are still contained in the Ark of the Covenant.

I don’t follow the 10 commandments and nether do you. They were kept in the ark of covenant and where is this today?

Jesus Christ and his commandments which are many in one sense and only two in anther.

What hangs off all the Law?

--
How is 'keeping the Sabbath" to be considered "a curse"?
To the contrary:

God BLESSED the Sabbath (Gen. 2:3)

Blessed are those who keep the Sabbath holy (Isa. 56:1-7, Isa. 28:12 )
--

Yes, and both Adam, Eve and Israel could not keep it but you are suggesting we can keep the Sabbath while the Lord of the Sabbath is not here present?

In time, if you are patient all will be revealed.

Just because some of our stiff-necked Israelite forefathers sometimes failed with their Sabbath observances doesn’t mean that we can’t follow the examples of those that faithfully obeyed God’s command. Why must you “spiritualize” the simple setting apart of one day a week for spiritual devotion to Our Heavenly Father?



“The curse” is having to do ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE LAW. Surely observing all 613 laws flawlessly would be a very burdensome task, indeed!


But many of God’s Laws are beneficial for us to observe. For instance, obeying the Ten Commandments, following the food cleanliness laws as well as circumcision. None of these elementary commandments are burdensome nor should they even vaguely be considered as “a curse” upon mankind.

It concerns me seeing you you’re this “observe” and “law” in the same sentence.

None of the TEN COMMANDMENTS have ever been rescinded!



----
Yes, Christ also told the lame man to "pick up his bed and walk" after He healed him. But you'll not find Christ or any of the disciples out fishing, gathering wood, or doing any other kind of manual labor on the Sabbath day.
---

But…..

--
C’mon Insight, those verses in do NOT describe “working” in any way, shape or form. Christ and His disciples were merely walking through a cornfield and plucking a few ears for refreshment on a hot Middle Eastern day. Sure, the litigious Pharisees and their scribe spies tried to find any miniscule transgression they could to accuse Jesus of breaking the Law. But don’t try and give the credence to the hypocritical Pharisaical arguments by claiming that the righteous saints following Christ were somehow ‘working on the Sabbath’.
--

Miniscule or not, if you break the Law the whole law is broken.

Because we now walk in the Spirit, not the letter of the law. The Sabbath remains in force but we answer to God in how we observe it, not to judgmental Jewish Pharisees walking around with rocks in their pockets.


--
God instituted the Sabbath way back on the Seven Day of Creation. The Old Testament saints observed the Sabbath. Christ and His followers observed the Sabbath. There is also a rich history of the Early Christian Church hallowing the Sabbath. And Isaiah also prophesied that the Sabbath will be observed in the future in the new heavens and new earth.

I see your choice of words “saint” above is not entirely accurate for not all Israel is Israel and certainly not all Israelite will be saints.

Needless to say the Law spoke to those who were under it and this excludes Gentiles.

Judaizers attempt to have Christians subject to ALL the statutes of the Torah and they also claim that we are saved through these works rather than declaring that the works are the spiritual manifestations of our salvation . It is never sinful to obey any of God’s Ten Commandments. We’re just not supposed to judge how others choose to observe certain aspects of the Law.

Yes but it appears you would like 1 of those statutes to remain?

As requested:

THE SABBATH THROUGHOUT CHRISTIAN HISTORY

The rest was of no value to me as many churches have traditions contrary to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I could provide a list for baptising for the dead or sacrificing their children to Molech but this does not make something right.

Insight

 

[Insight]

The question James and I have been discussing comes down to whether we keep the Sabbath Law, or part , today? (One must be careful when answering this question)

The Answer: We do not keep the Sabbath Law today; we keep the Sabbath principles today, which is our walk in Christ.

The revelation of Jesus Christ commands us to live the principles of the Sabbath which we will eventually highlight in some detail.

We don’t keep the law of the Sabbath as Colossian States.

Colossians 2:14

[sup]14[/sup]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Of course one would need to prove the institution of the Sabbath Law does not form part of the “handwriting of requirements”.

But how do we prove from scripture that this is a right understanding?

Hebrews 4: 9.10

[sup]9[/sup]There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. [sup]10[/sup]For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Powerful text is it not?

Paul is talking about the seventh day. We know he is writing to the Jews to explain to them it is no longer necessary for them to keep the Sabbath day in Christ. The contrary of what people today assume “rest” to mean. Today we are asked to labour to enter that rest.

Up next - - The principles of the Sabbath Law expounded!

Look forward to your comments!

 

[James Forthwright]

The question James and I have been discussing comes down to whether we keep the Sabbath Law, or part, today? (One must be careful when answering this question)

The Answer: We do not keep the Sabbath Law today; we keep the Sabbath principles today, which is our walk in Christ.

So, what are we to say to the licentious and un-principled among us that claim they practice these scripturally ill-defined Sabbath “principles”?

If I may draw a rather imperfect analogy, the Constitution of the United States (and its subsequent Amendments) were crafted by wise men primarily to constrain the reign of unlawful government. Yet, 200+ years later. . . even though our elected representatives regularly swear oaths of allegiance to the principles of a Constitutional Republic, elitist tyranny and mob democratic rule presides. I contend that an anarchy which scraps all legislation would be even more chaotic. Laws are vital for a healthy functioning society and they need not be oppressive.

The revelation of Jesus Christ commands us to live the principles of the Sabbath which we will eventually highlight in some detail.

We don’t keep the law of the Sabbath as Colossian states.

Colossians 2:14

[sup]14[/sup]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Of course one would need to prove the institution of the Sabbath Law does not form part of the “handwriting of requirements”.

But how do we prove from scripture that this is a right understanding?

The Sabbath was intended to be a blessing for all Creation, man and beast. Weekly Sabbath observance need not be even slightly oppressive if one is guided by the Spirit instead of a multitude of ordinances as the Jews perceived.

Hebrews 4: 9.10

[sup]9[/sup]There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. [sup]10[/sup]For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

Powerful text is it not?

Paul is talking about the seventh day. We know he is writing to the Jews to explain to them it is no longer necessary for them to keep the Sabbath day in Christ. The contrary of what people today assume “rest” to mean. Today we are asked to labour to enter that rest.

Yes, the author of the fourth Chapter of Hebrews expressly speaks of THE SEVENTH DAY as the Sabbath rest, not all or each and every day. . . “a certain day”.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day,. . .

Of the many translations in my possession, only the KJV uses the word “labour” in that verse while the majority of other texts emphasize other less 'laborious' aspects of the Greek word:

G4704
σπουδάζω
spoudazō
spoo-dad'-zo
From G4710; to use speed, that is, to make effort, be prompt or earnest: - do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be zealous and exert ourselves and strive diligently to enter that rest [of God, to know and experience it for ourselves], that no one may fall or perish by the same kind of unbelief and disobedience [into which those in the wilderness fell]. –Amplified Bible

Up next - - The principles of the Sabbath Law expounded!

I’m all for exposition, Insight. . .

 

[Insight]

Hi James

I forgot to mention the Eden Sabbath as you know was not a day (morning and evening), it was an intended period of rest without end, however broken by sin.

The reason I draw your attention to this is the day (a shadow of things to come) was instituted under the law.

Now one can remember the shadow or seek the detail and sustance of that shadow. We could liken it to seeing Christ in the Law through types and antitypes.

Good to see you back

Insight

 

[James Forthwright]

I forgot to mention the Eden Sabbath as you know was not a day (morning and evening), it was an intended period of rest without end, however broken by sin.

Nonsense! The (morning and evening) pattern was repeated six times previously to the Seventh Day and last time I checked the sun continues to rise in the morning and set in the evening.

Gen_1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen_1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen_1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen_1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen_1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen_1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The reason I draw your attention to this is the day (a shadow of things to come) was instituted under the law.

Now [sic] one can remember the shadow or seek the detail and sustance [sic] of that shadow. We could liken it to seeing Christ in the Law through types and antitypes.

The sun (as well as the weekly Sabbath) isn't due to extinguished till after the millenium and we still see through a glass darkly (1Cor. 13:12). You appear to be spiritually (and chronically) far-sighted instead of in-sighted.

 

[Insight]

Nonsense! The (morning and evening) pattern was repeated six times previously to the Seventh Day and last time I checked the sun continues to rise in the morning and set in the evening.

Gen_1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen_1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen_1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen_1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen_1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen_1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Can you show me the verse? for the seventh day?

I wonder what God is teaching you James?

The sun (as well as the weekly Sabbath) isn't due to extinguished till after the millenium and we still see through a glass darkly (1Cor. 13:12). You appear to be spiritually (and chronically) far-sighted instead of in-sighted.

Darkness is as light to Yahweh.

Lets try and see if we together can behold the light of the Sabbath.

 

[Insight]

In regards to your notes on Heb 4:7 ( post #28) did you consider Heb 3:7 quoted from Psa 95?

Have a look at the word "Today" and its context.

Afterwards take a look at Heb 3:13,14

I think you will find every day is a new "today," and the word "today" applies preeminently to those who are "partners with Christ" - if you check the context of Heb 3:13,14 once again this should be evident. The quotation is the fourth and last time that material from the original quotation (See Heb 3:7–11) is represented in smaller, formal quotations (cp Heb 3:15; 4:3,5).

Of course you wouldn’t have us believe we only hear God’s voice one day per week?

And btw, read Psalm 95 you will notice the context again is Israel hardening their hearts because of sin.

I think we are seeing a connection between the Sabbath – Sin – Rest

I am sure this will come up again sooner or later.

Insight

 

[Insight]

Of all the passages in Scriptures by far the strongest in regards to the Sabbath teaching is found in Isaiah 58:13,14. Nowhere else are we shown all the principles in a succinct passages so clearly spoken.​

Sabbath Principles: ​

“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, [sup]14[/sup]Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth. ​

James, we have so far demonstrated how the Sabbath day was without end. He rest was broken by sin. Here we are expressly told by God that He wants us to honour Him everyday…but how?​

Not doing our own ways, nor finding our own pleasure, nor speaking our own words. I want you to find My ways, find what pleases Me and speak My words.​

God foreknew that man would because of flesh and sin do everything that he thinks is right in his own eyes. So by example (Spiritual Principle) showed man and woman that by resting Himself he would show the example of us resting from our foolish works. Thou His works were not foolish He demonstrated how all Children who are in His image (appearance) and likeness (moral) will do the same.​

Of course Jesus was not bound by a day as he was working with his Father to reinstitute the Sabbath Rest once more in the earth (Num 4:21 & Hab 2:14)​

It is worthwhile considering how Jesus Christ, who is the express image of Yahweh’s person, fulfilled Isa 58:13,14​

We are called to follow him...​

Christ kept the Sabbath Principles perfectly

John 5:30 Refrained from doing his pleasure

Psalm 40:8 Saw law of God as a delight

John 17:4 honoured his Father always

John 4:34 Ceased from doing his own works

John 14:10 Did not speak his own words

Heb 4:9-10 There remains a Sabbath keeping for us.

John 5:16,17 Man broke the Sabbath in Eden – Christ sent to restore it.

I hope to look at these passages further to see how Jesus perform righteous works .John 5:17​

God did not rest nor did his Son and nor do we.​

We see Jesus' example and we preach, teach and work everyday to enter that future rest.​

Insight​

 

[James Forthwright]

Gen_1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Can you show me the verse? for the seventh day?

I wonder what God is teaching you James?

I don’t know Insight, possibly, that you might consider laying off the sacerdotal wine?

The ‘evening followed by the morning’ pattern was set from the first week of Creation and continues to this very day. Why should the second week (being a repeat pattern of the first week be any different? In spite of your (and the Catholic Church) revelations to the contrary, the biblical Sabbath also begins on Friday evening, continues during the next morning and ends Saturday evening.

Darkness is as light to Yahweh.

Lets try and see if we together can behold the light of the Sabbath.

No argument there, however, we mere mortals find faithful flashlights preferable to stumbling around in the dark relying on our inner luminescence to guide our way. The ‘flashlights’ I’m referring to, in this case, are the multitude of scriptures detailing Sabbath observance and the Early Church Father’s precedence (which you’ve conveniently chosen to slough off) rather than contrived ethereal “principles” based largely on conjecture as well as heavy doses of reading between the lines.

In regards to your notes on Heb 4:7 ( post #28) did you consider Heb 3:7 quoted from Psa 95?

Have a look at the word "Today" and its context. Afterwards take a look at Heb 3:13,14

I think you will find every day is a new "today," and the word "today" applies preeminently to those who are "partners with Christ" - if you check the context of Heb 3:13,14 once again this should be evident. The quotation is the fourth and last time that material from the original quotation (See Heb 3:7–11) is represented in smaller, formal quotations (cp Heb 3:15; 4:3,5).

Of course you wouldn’t have us believe we only hear God’s voice one day per week?

And btw, read Psalm 95 you will notice the context again is Israel hardening their hearts because of sin.

I think we are seeing a connection between the Sabbath – Sin – Rest

I am sure this will come up again sooner or later. . .

I’ll certainly grant you that the Book of Hebrews in many respects is a very mystical tome. And likewise, that we are wise to be attentive to God’s voice each and every day.

Rather than a anti-nominian redefinition or complete spiritual transformation of the Sabbath Rest, I believe the author (Apostle Paul?) is simply reiterating the foundational Christian premise that we are to rest our salvation completely on Christ’s high priestly sacrifice rather than our fleshly works to enter the Promised Land.

As I continue to read your posts, Insight, though I often jest, I don’t doubt the profundity of your revelatory knowledge, your sincerity or deep devotion to the LORD and His Word. I’m just not convinced that what you are proposing is the best path for everyone. I simply believe IMO in a more practical, historical approach, i.e., setting aside an exclusive 24hr. period (sunset Fri. to sunset Sat.) while relying on the Holy Spirit to direct the details of my personal Sabbath observance. Likewise, you are free to follow the dictates and spiritual proddings of your own heart and mind in these matters.

Rom_14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 

[goodshepard55]

Gal.5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

 

[James Forthwright]

Gal.5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Are you 'above the law' which prohibits idolatry? Taking the LORD'S name in vain? Murder? Adultery? Covetousness? Stealing? Bearing false witness, etc,? Why should the fourth commandment (Keep the Sabbath holy) be any different than the other nine commandments?

Because these moral laws are now written in your heart rather than etched in stone tablets does not give us license to ignore them. We follow them willingly guided by the Holy Spirit because we love God with all our heart.

 

[Insight]

I don’t know Insight, possibly, that you might consider laying off the sacerdotal wine?


The ‘evening followed by the morning’ pattern was set from the first week of Creation and continues to this very day. Why should the second week (being a repeat pattern of the first week be any different? In spite of your (and the Catholic Church) revelations to the contrary, the biblical Sabbath also begins on Friday evening, continues during the next morning and ends Saturday evening.

James, you are right and by no means am I suggesting a change to the seven day week. For the seven day week is clearly shown from Gen 4:3;8:6-12;29:27,28.


All I am doing is bringing to your attention that unlike the other six days, God omits the usual “evening and the morning” symbolic of the intended length of rest being implied (and prophesied).


e.g.


And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (Genesis 2:2)

Unlike the other days God does not draw our attention to the end of this day?

Why?

1. God’s rest is intended to be eternal
2. If the end of day was stated we would be looking for a eight day (although this has prophetic application not intended here in the beginning)
3. It also it brings to our attention that Sin when committed would break His rest and thereby commence work once more.

This lesson in no way compromises your day of rest, but rather highlights how God was looking beyond “a natural day” or a spiritual “day” or even a Spiritual 1000 Millennium rest, but to a time beyond time when God will be “All in all”.

No argument there, however, we mere mortals find faithful flashlights preferable to stumbling around in the dark relying on our inner luminescence to guide our way. The ‘flashlights’ I’m referring to, in this case, are the multitude of scriptures detailing Sabbath observance and the Early Church Father’s precedence (which you’ve conveniently chosen to slough off) rather than contrived ethereal “principles” based largely on conjecture as well as heavy doses of reading between the lines.

You actually bring to light an important reason for asking as many questions of God (Word) as possible. Like what we have demonstrated above.


E.g. why did the Sabbath day not end like the previous six days?


The Spirit has numerous ways of communicating its message to us and when it omits a trend or pattern we must ask why. In this instance we understand why God’s Rest is intended to be without end, without an evening and a morning (Rev 21:3)

I’ll certainly grant you that the Book of Hebrews in many respects is a very mystical tome. And likewise, that we are wise to be attentive to God’s voice each and every day.


Rather than a anti-nominian redefinition or complete spiritual transformation of the Sabbath Rest, I believe the author (Apostle Paul?) is simply reiterating the foundational Christian premise that we are to rest our salvation completely on Christ’s high priestly sacrifice rather than our fleshly works to enter the Promised Land.

Yes, but you do not make mention of the Spiritual works we are called to perform, without which no man will see the Kingdom. Your comment “complete spiritual transformation of the Sabbath Rest” is not without truth for Jesus Christ transformed to use your language the Sabbath Day Law into a Sabbath Life lived totally to his God.

As I continue to read your posts, Insight, though I often jest, I don’t doubt the profundity of your revelatory knowledge, your sincerity or deep devotion to the LORD and His Word. I’m just not convinced that what you are proposing is the best path for everyone. I simply believe IMO in a more practical, historical approach, i.e., setting aside an exclusive 24hr. period (sunset Fri. to sunset Sat.) while relying on the Holy Spirit to direct the details of my personal Sabbath observance. Likewise, you are free to follow the dictates and spiritual proddings of your own heart and mind in these matters.


Rom_14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I am not revealing to you things here that you don’t already know. The Sabbath and Jewish feast days and their observances were constantly debated and argued among the Christians Rom 14:5. The Jewish believers tended to observe these and the Gentile believers did not. You would be aware from Amos 8:5 and other passages the Sabbath was a “familiar” day and not adhered to as God had intended, because of sin.

The transition from Law to Grace - Old to New was not easy. The observance of special days compared to the simplicity of the memorials and the Lords remembrance was not an easy transition.

In the beginning many in the Jerusalem church revealed the Sabbath as a matter of indifference, personal preference. Today we see no precedence to impose the keeping of days on another as a requisite to salvation. Gal 4:10,11; 5:1,2,34; Col 2:13,14,15,16,17

 

[jiggyfly]

This lesson in no way compromises your day of rest, but rather highlights how God was looking beyond “a natural day” or a spiritual “day” or even a Spiritual 1000 Millennium rest, but to a time beyond time when God will be “All in all”.

Excellent, it points to a quality of rest rather than a length of rest.

 

[goodshepard55]

Are you 'above the law' which prohibits idolatry? Taking the LORD'S name in vain? Murder? Adultery? Covetousness? Stealing? Bearing false witness, etc,? Why should the fourth commandment (Keep the Sabbath holy) be any different than the other nine commandments?

Because these moral laws are now written in your heart rather than etched in stone tablets does not give us license to ignore them. We follow them willingly guided by the Holy Spirit because we love God with all our heart.

Please don't use large letters when responding to me, it seems like a challenge...darling I just posted scripture...nothing more...did not state an opinion one way or the other...scream and yell at the Lord if you do not like what is in His word...

It is rude in my opinion when people respond with large letters, or all capital letters to a post..just respond and bold the post if you want it to stand out ...

Rudeness is just as bad as not loving thy neighbor...follow them all or don't...because you will be judged on all or none...but if you follow one and leave out the rest of the 618 command of the Lord in the Word, you will be judge by them all...It is not just 10 you know...they are approx. 618 commands from God in the Word of God...

And to answer you question James...Yes I am above the law, for I sit with Jesus...I am not of this world....I reside in the Kingdom of Heaven

 

[THE Gypsy]

Please don't use large letters when responding to me, it seems like a challenge...darling I just posted scripture...nothing more...did not state an opinion one way or the other...scream and yell at the Lord if you do not like what is in His word...

It is rude in my opinion when people respond with large letters, or all capital letters to a post..just respond and bold the post if you want it to stand out ...

Rudeness is just as bad as not loving thy neighbor...follow them all or don't...because you will be judged on all or none...but if you follow one and leave out the rest of the 618 command of the Lord in the Word, you will be judge by them all...It is not just 10 you know...they are approx. 618 commands from God in the Word of God...

And to answer you question James...Yes I am above the law, for I sit with Jesus...I am not of this world....I reside in the Kingdom of Heaven

Um...Sorry about the "big" and "bold" letters, but that is the best perspective EVAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nominate for "Post of the Year"!

J/K about the "letters"...I agree completely. Never have understood why people feel the need to always use big letters. It's like..."Weeeee Look at me!" or "What I have to say is more important than what you have to say!" Pure nonsense.