The salvation journey.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest, liked some of the understandings you've written about Faith and the application of said Faith. I was hoping we could find some common ground to see how far we could get talking through the salvation process.

I'm trying really hard to look at this journey one happening at a time, in the simplest terms i can.

First happening.
1) We must be born into this world.
2) As the result of being born into this world, we are under Grace in this respect. Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out out it. As the result of being born into this world, we are part of this field. At this beginning stage, we "do not" have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet sowe are none of His at this beginning state of being. At this early stage, being under Grace simply means we are under the Judgment of Jesus Christ and we can do nothing to change that.

Do you agree? Or would you like to elaborate?

1) Yes, one cannot be saved or lost if he was never physically born, never existed.

2) God's grace has appeared to all men Titus 2:11 but all men will not be saved for God has made conditional upon obedience Hebrews 5:9.

I do not believe in the man made idea of original sin, infants are not born lost sinners in need of salvation/grace. Infants are born without sin/innocent and as they mentally mature learning right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) then they become accountable to God's law (Romans 7:8-9) then transgress God's law becoming lost sinners (1 John 3:4) then are in need of salvation (Acts 2:38) thru repentance and baptism for remission of sins.

 

[Faither]

Then all men universally would unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11.

God made salvation conditional upon men repenting and being baptized
God made Naaman's healing conditional upon dipping 7 times in the Jordan

In both cases the condition had to FIRST be met THEN one receives the free gift and meeting the condition placed upon a free gift does not earn the free gift.

I agree, salvation is conditional. But we haven't gotten to any of those conditions in the discussion yet. So I'm not sure why you think I'm saying everyone is saved unconditionally.

The only happenings in the salvation journey I've put on the table for agreement so far are that we are born into the world, and as the result of being born into this world, we have been bought by Christ. That doesn't mean everyone born is saved, that means at this starting point, everyone born is under His judgement.

These first two points points are obvious and merely a place to start the process. Please read my posts more carefully if you want to continue.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So I'm not sure why you think I'm saying everyone is saved unconditionally.

In post #40 I was responding to Eternally Grateful who posted in post #37 "grace is not conditional. if it was, it is not grace."

To which I responded "Then all men universally would unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11."

 

[Cassandra]

In post #40 I was responding to Eternally Grateful who posted in post #37 "grace is not conditional. if it was, it is not grace."

To which I responded "Then all men universally would unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11."

I think he has Eternally Grateful on ignore

 

[Faither]

In post #40 I was responding to Eternally Grateful who posted in post #37 "grace is not conditional. if it was, it is not grace."

To which I responded "Then all men universally would unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11."

Ya I have EG on ignore.

 

[Faither]

1) Yes, one cannot be saved or lost if he was never physically born, never existed.

2) God's grace has appeared to all men Titus 2:11 but all men will not be saved for God has made conditional upon obedience Hebrews 5:9.

I do not believe in the man made idea of original sin, infants are not born lost sinners in need of salvation/grace. Infants are born without sin/innocent and as they mentally mature learning right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) then they become accountable to God's law (Romans 7:8-9) then transgress God's law becoming lost sinners (1 John 3:4) then are in need of salvation (Acts 2:38) thru repentance and baptism for remission of sins.

Again, the context of this thread is the Salvation process. Obviously a child wouldn't be in the salvation journey yet.

So you seem to be evading this simple discussion, I guess I miss read you. Sorry for wasting your time.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then all men universally would unconditionally be saved, Titus 2:11.

Nope that is not true.

Grace is not conditional.

God made salvation conditional upon men repenting and being baptized

And here is your problem. Abraham was saved by grace, and he was never baptised. You adding work to the grace of God. Which is a false gospel

God made Naaman's healing conditional upon dipping 7 times in the Jordan

In both cases the condition had to FIRST be met THEN one receives the free gift and meeting the condition placed upon a free gift does not earn the free gift.

The penalty of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD IS LIFE ETERNAL

Grace is unmerited or unconditional favor.

You can’t earn salvation. Period. Not of works lest anyone should boast

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ya I have EG on ignore.

proving you have no desire to disuss

People should call you out for this. You did not even answer EG's question

 

[michaelvpardo]

I disagree

The world is not under grace, they are under pretty much law. While grace has paid for them to come under grace, God will not force it on anyone.

A non believer is in a condemned state (he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already
A non believer is dead in his or her sin
A non believer needs to be born again
A non believer must chose to receive the gift of salvation. or continue to live n unbelief, in essence, reject the gift of salvation and remain in a condemned state

People under grace are no longer in a condemned state. They have passed from death to life. they have been born again. They are saved by grace through faith

So, you don't accept the concept of common grace (as opposed to saving grace?)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5 :43-45

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hello brother, I think you're spot on so far, but strange as it may seem there are individuals here who "troll" threads regularly. Just keep shining brightly with His truth and they'll turn to stone eventually.

 

[michaelvpardo]

What I'm asking is in post 24. Basically, it's that simple, we are not saved coming out of the womb.

I'll wait to let some others chime in before I go to the next step of the salvation process. Hopefully we can get a few others that agree to move ahead with this discussion.

I agree with you in terms of our experience of salvation, but I do believe that those who recieve Christ were chosen to receive Him from before the foundation of the world and from God's perspective always saved. The scriptures say that the angels minister to those who will inherit salvation:

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? Hebrews 1:13-14

Some people might reason that this verse only refers to those who have received the Holy Spirit, but given my personal experiences before receiving the gospel, I believe that those angels start working before we're even out of the womb. I did many foolish things as a child, many of which could've ended my life in a New York minute, yet somehow I survived. This is the testimony of many saints (usually the dangerously crazy thrill seeking types.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

I agree, salvation is conditional. But we haven't gotten to any of those conditions in the discussion yet. So I'm not sure why you think I'm saying everyone is saved unconditionally.

The only happenings in the salvation journey I've put on the table for agreement so far are that we are born into the world, and as the result of being born into this world, we have been bought by Christ. That doesn't mean everyone born is saved, that means at this starting point, everyone born is under His judgement.

These first two points points are obvious and merely a place to start the process. Please read my posts more carefully if you want to continue.

They're obvious to you and I, but I can tell you from experience that they aren't obvious to everyone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, you don't accept the concept of common grace (as opposed to saving grace?)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5 :43-45

If he is talking a common grace of which everyone is alive but by that then yes

then again when I asked him he just ignored me and failed to answer f this is what he is talking about or not

then again he is talking about salvation. So one would assume he means saving grace would they not?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They're obvious to you and I, but I can tell you from experience that they aren't obvious to everyone.

What is so obvious?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello brother, I think you're spot on so far, but strange as it may seem there are individuals here who "troll" threads regularly. Just keep shining brightly with His truth and they'll turn to stone eventually.

Asking questions or disagreeing is now trolling

thanks that’s good to know. SMH

 

[Faither]

I agree with you in terms of our experience of salvation, but I do believe that those who recieve Christ were chosen to receive Him from before the foundation of the world and from God's perspective always saved. The scriptures say that the angels minister to those who will inherit salvation:

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? Hebrews 1:13-14

Some people might reason that this verse only refers to those who have received the Holy Spirit, but given my personal experiences before receiving the gospel, I believe that those angels start working before we're even out of the womb. I did many foolish things as a child, many of which could've ended my life in a New York minute, yet somehow I survived. This is the testimony of many saints (usually the dangerously crazy thrill seeking types.)

I agree with your understanding of the chosen with this caveat. The Greek is specific about the called out ones, (the chosen). It specifically communicates that a small group is called out from among a larger group that isn't called. I understand those to be the chosen in my understanding. But that's not something we need to agree on to move forward in this discussion about the salvation process.

This where my understand of the salvation journey so far.

1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.

Are we still in agreement so far?

And thanks for the lifeline Michael. I was about to give up on his thread.

 

[michaelvpardo]

If he is talking a common grace of which everyone is alive but by that then yes

then again when I asked him he just ignored me and failed to answer f this is what he is talking about or not

then again he is talking about salvation. So one would assume he means saving grace would they not?

But he specifically said he was addressing the journey before salvation, or our "Lost state".
Some people equate redemption with salvation, and claim that only the saved have been redeemed, but redeemed just means "bought back" and in the case of the world, Christ "paid it all" and has become judge of both the living and the dead. There would be far less arguments on the forums if people would read dictionaries as well as scripture (and I'm not referring to you. )

 

[michaelvpardo]

Asking questions or disagreeing is now trolling

thanks that’s good to know. SMH

I didn't mention you, but if the shoe fits....
(Typically, those who defend themselves before being accused have conscience issues. Don't sweat it. God forgives all our sin, not just some of it.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

What is so obvious?

Faither's post (the one I responded to.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

I agree with your understanding of the chosen with this caveat. The Greek is specific about the called out ones, (the chosen). It specifically communicates that a small group is called out from among a larger group that isn't called. I understand those to be the chosen in my understanding. But that's not something we need to agree on to move forward in this discussion about the salvation process.

This where my understand of the salvation journey so far.

1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.

Are we still in agreement so far?

And thanks for the lifeline Michael. I was about to give up on his thread.

Still one for one. I spent 4 years in Spanish classes, got passing grades, but still can't follow a conversation or a Spanish broadcast. I never had any desire to study a dead language and I can't conceive of being more proficient at one than the language of my paternal grandparents.
I just have great confidence in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me all things (as long as I remain willing to listen to Him. )
Fellowship with God in His word is one of my favorite activities, though these days it's reading less and recalling more. I've never been good with chapter and verse numbers, but I'm grateful for digital documents and search engines. They're a lot quicker than browsing through all but the shortest books for a particular verse.