The salvation journey.

[Behold]

At this beginning stage, although we are under Grace "we do not have the Spirit of Christ inside us yet."
Do you agree with this opening understanding?

Your post is Horrible deception.
Truly.
I can't imagine the Church that taught you that being a Christian, does not mean Christ is in the Christian.

Listen....If you have not the Spirit of God in you, then you are not saved, you are not a Son of God.

LOOK>... Romans Chapter 8.."" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,= if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.<< Now if any person have NOT the Spirit of Christ in them, then they are not GOD's Son"...

See, you can't be the "temple of the HOLY SPIRIT"< and not have The Holy Spirit in you.

SEE This.....>"Christ IN YOU the hope of GLORY"......see that?

That's BORN AGAIN.......that's how you know, and so....if you don't CHRIST in you, then you are not born again, you are not saved, you are LOST, you are not going to Heaven.

 

[Faither]

That's what scripture says, so I believe it, but God's grace is primarily for the lost, not the saved. If you're being obedient as a believer, you're being blessed, but what did God say?

10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? Matthew 10-12

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9:11-13

Did Jesus die for the lost or for the righteous?

Isn't that sacrifice for the lost the greatest expression of God's grace?

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:7-9

Do you disagree with the word or do you believe that we're mistaken? Is the gospel call to all, or only to those who receive it?
I believe in the doctrine of election, but the offer of salvation is macde to everyone so that those who reject it justify their condemnation.

I can agree with your understandings, but at this 5th step in the process we are not sealed with His Spirit yet. So what that means is because we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet, He is none of ours yet either. With Christ not being our yet, His word is not ours, His promises in His word are not ours. This is a kind of foundational scripture (Rom 8:9) that universally applies to everyone, regardless of whether we are His yet or not.

So at the 5th step, our state of being is we're poised to respond with our first act of Faith. But Christ, His Word, and His promises in His word are not ours to claim yet, no Spirit of Christ sealed in us yet. This is important to note and agree on. What do you say?

 

[michaelvpardo]

What was so obvious about it. Again I ask.

That was yesterday and sorry, I'm not even sure what I had for dinner. However I can assure that what we both saw as obvious was taught to us by the same teacher, God the Holy Spirit. I say it isn't obvious to everyone, because some people teach themselves, not believing that God will teach them if they trust His promise.

 

[Faither]

Your post is Horrible deception.
Truly.
I can't imagine the Church that taught you that being a Christian, does not mean Christ is in the Christian.

Listen....If you have not the Spirit of God in you, then you are not saved, you are not a Son of God.

LOOK>... Romans Chapter 8.."" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,= if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.<< Now if any person have NOT the Spirit of Christ in them, then they are not GOD's Son"...

See, you can't be the "temple of the HOLY SPIRIT"< and not have The Holy Spirit in you.

SEE This.....>"Christ IN YOU the hope of GLORY"......see that?

That's BORN AGAIN.......that's how you know, and so....if you don't CHRIST in you, then you are not born again, you are not saved, you are LOST, you are not going to Heaven.

You've misunderstood what i was trying to point out.

Simply, the work Jesus did on Calvary bought everyone (the entire field). That work on Calvary put all of mankind under Grace, Salvation for some , judgement for others.

 

[Faither]

That was yesterday and sorry, I'm not even sure what I had for dinner. However I can assure that what we both saw as obvious was taught to us by the same teacher, God the Holy Spirit. I say it isn't obvious to everyone, because some people teach themselves, not believing that God will teach them if they trust His promise.

Do you agree with post 82 ? If you need to think about it, take your time.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Good day Michael, here is where we left off.

Salvation journey step by step.
1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.
4) The correct response to the call of the Father is simply a turn from our way to His way in our minds. A mental turn from our way to the direction of the caller. This is the act of repentance.
5) Taking a step towards the caller with our first act of Faith towards Him. ( still haven't received His Spirit yet, none of His yet in step 5.)

Before we describe what this 5th step looks like in detail, do you agree that at this point in the process an act of Faith is required by us?

I'm not sure that I would agree with this at all. I understood and finally believed the gospel at the age of 39, but I loved Christ's words and wanted to be like Him while still very young, certainly before the age of 10. My problem was that I believed that I deserved a reward for doing the right thing but my experience was just the opposite.
Do you know the popular saying "no good deed goes unpunished?" This is the cynical perception of a lot of people's experience, not understanding either our sin, nor the fact that man was created to do good and not evil.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic and Catholics are supposed to go see a priest regularly to confess their sin, but when the priest asked me what my sins were, I could never think of any specific sins and just answered things like "I disobeyed my parents" as that was a safe bet, though I didn't really see my willfulness as sin.

In reading the gospels as a child, I imagined that I had to first become a sinner in order to be saved because I didn't recognize sin in myself. I had no sense of conviction by God at all, but felt justified in anything that I did. Even so I still had the desire to know the Lord and if that isn't hearing His call, I don't know what is.

I spent my entire youth and early manhood searching for the truth and not convinced that it was laid out in scripture, simply because my carnal mind was incapable of reconciling scripture to itself, much like the cults who claim to recognize Jesus but deny His equality to God. This was why I studied science, read books about the occult, world religions and philosophies, but nothing that I read could change who I was.

It was the faithful ministry of a coworker, a black brother in the Lord who shared testimony with me, explained scripture spiritually to me, demonstrated real change in himself, that prepared me to believe that the scripture was more than the work of clever men familiar with the human condition.

You have to hear the gospel and understand it in order to believe it. The book of acts tells us about a group of believers who had been baptized by John the Baptist, but hadn't even heard of the Holy Spirit. Immediately after hearing the gospel they recieved Him, but clearly He'd been working repentance in their hearts and calling them to Himself before they'd ever even heard the gospel.
God's work is effective even upon the "unsaved", but the gospel "is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, all men would be UNCONDITIONALLY be saved Titus 2:11 if grace is Unconditional. It takes conditional obedience to Christ to receive grace (Hebrews 5:9) and continued obedience to Christ to remain in grace. Grace is CONDITIONALLY "in Christ" (2 Timothy 2:1) so one must CONDITIONALLY be in Christ and remain in Christ to be in grace and that CONDITIONALLY takes obedience.
There is no such thing in the Bible of disobedient, rebellious sinners living in disregard to God's will yet UNCONDITIONALLY receiving grace/salvation anyway. If grace is received UNconditionally then it is maintained UNconditionally yet Paul warns the Christians in Corinth about receiving grace in vain if they continue following doctrinal error.

==========

Abraham lived under a different law, he did not live under the NT so he was not amenable to a law (Acts 2:38) that did not exist when he was alive.

again

If it is grace it is no longer of works. Grace is unmerited favor.

You work to merit a prize or reward or a wage by meeting the conditions required to earn that

grace on the other hand, Only Jesus met that condition. That is why it is offered as grace as a gift. We earn death because we have failed to meet the condition required to enter heaven on our own. Hence we need grace.

this has been true from adam and will continue to be true until this earth is destroyed and made new.

your right, there is no such thing as rebellious disobedient sinners who are saved. But all of us were these people at one time,. It was our salvation in this state that saved us. When we received the gift of grace to save us. John said clearly whoever sins has never seen or met God. whoever is born of God can not sin. So meeting some sin condition will not save you. keep you saved or keep you from losing salvation. If this was true, we would be under law not grace. and news flash. Everyone is cursed by the law. No one has met that condition. so if you think you can be GOOD enough to earn salvation. your wrong

As for abraham being under a different covenant.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

the gospel is the same for everyone. Grace can not be earned by conditions, it is a gift given to those who can not meet the conditions. if we could meet the conditions. we would not need grace

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's what scripture says, so I believe it, but God's grace is primarily for the lost, not the saved. If you're being obedient as a believer, you're being blessed, but what did God say?

So I understand you correctly.

You do not think you need grace anymore?

Grace will not help the lost. If they remain lost. they will suffer the second death.

10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? Matthew 10-12

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9:11-13

Did Jesus die for the lost or for the righteous?

Again, I am not sure what you are discussing here. He did for the lost. But not all the lost will be saved. If grace covers the lost then all the lost will be saved

for by grace we have been salvation.

Grace is the means of salvation.

Isn't that sacrifice for the lost the greatest expression of God's grace?

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:7-9

Do you disagree with the word or do you believe that we're mistaken? Is the gospel call to all, or only to those who receive it?
I believe in the doctrine of election, but the offer of salvation is made to everyone so that those who reject it justify their condemnation.

yes, He died for everyone, hence everyone has the possibility of receiving the gift of grace.,
paying for redemption and receiving the result of that payment through grace are not the same. do you not agree??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That was yesterday and sorry, I'm not even sure what I had for dinner. However I can assure that what we both saw as obvious was taught to us by the same teacher, God the Holy Spirit. I say it isn't obvious to everyone, because some people teach themselves, not believing that God will teach them if they trust His promise.

well sorry, what I saw was not obvious to me and a few others.

Are you insisting we are not taught by the HS because we do not see it?

When you make comments like this, to me it detracts from the conversation and shuts some people out as it separates those who do not see it as you do.

which is why I asked what was so obvious.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You've misunderstood what i was trying to point out.

Simply, the work Jesus did on Calvary bought everyone (the entire field). That work on Calvary put all of mankind under Grace, Salvation for some , judgement for others.

so they are judged to hell because of Grace?

this makes no sense.

You may have me in ignore. but I still have a right to question what your saying. You should also have the duty to answer my questions.

 

[michaelvpardo]

So I understand you correctly.

You do not think you need grace anymore?

Grace will not help the lost. If they remain lost. they will suffer the second death.


Again, I am not sure what you are discussing here. He did for the lost. But not all the lost will be saved. If grace covers the lost then all the lost will be saved

for by grace we have been salvation.

Grace is the means of salvation.

yes, He died for everyone, hence everyone has the possibility of receiving the gift of grace.,
paying for redemption and receiving the result of that payment through grace are not the same. do you not agree??

Nope, you clearly neither understand me nor God's purposes in Christ. Your corrupted thinking is consistently on display, making assumptions that exalt yourself over your brothers, and maliciously implying that we believe things that we don't.
I won't be responding to such sin anymore. Now it's God's turn.

 

[michaelvpardo]

so they are judged to hell because of Grace?

this makes no sense.

You may have me in ignore. but I still have a right to question what your saying. You should also have the duty to answer my questions.

Maybe you don't know how ignore works, but your posts won't even be seen by those who hit that little button, unless they push another little button to view ignored content.
By the way, the Holy Spirit will teach any believer willing to believe Him, but we all aren't taught the same things at the same time simply because we all aren't prepared to believe the same thing at the same times. This itself is an act of grace so that believers don't blaspheme or grieve His Spirit.
God does not seek to condemn anyone, He takes no pleasure in the death of the dying . God is characterized by benevolence, not vengeance or malice.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nope, you clearly neither understand me nor God's purposes in Christ. Your corrupted thinking is consistently on display, making assumptions that exalt yourself over your brothers, and maliciously implying that we believe things that we don't.
I won't be responding to such sin anymore. Now it's God's turn.

Ok, if I misunderstood you. Then help me understand.

This is what you posted

That's what scripture says, so I believe it, but God's grace is primarily for the lost, not the saved.

To me this appears as you saying that grace is for the lost not the saved. (Even if you used the term primarily)

To me, what I sure appeared that grace is for the lost. Not the saved, hence if this is true, you do not think you need grace any more.

Edited to just stick to the point at hand..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Maybe you don't know how ignore works, but your posts won't even be seen by those who hit that little button, unless they push another little button to view ignored content.
By the way, the Holy Spirit will teach any believer willing to believe Him, but we all aren't taught the same things at the same time simply because we all aren't prepared to believe the same thing at the same times. This itself is an act of grace so that believers don't blaspheme or grieve His Spirit.
God does not seek to condemn anyone, He takes no pleasure in the death of the dying . God is characterized by benevolence, not vengeance or malice.

I know brother. Thank you.

I think think he contradicted himself claiming he wanted an open conversation then shutting it down before he even got started.

So what do you think of my question. Are we judged to hell because of Grace?

 

[Faither]

I'm not sure that I would agree with this at all. I understood and finally believed the gospel at the age of 39, but I loved Christ's words and wanted to be like Him while still very young, certainly before the age of 10. My problem was that I believed that I deserved a reward for doing the right thing but my experience was just the opposite.
Do you know the popular saying "no good deed goes unpunished?" This is the cynical perception of a lot of people's experience, not understanding either our sin, nor the fact that man was created to do good and not evil.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic and Catholics are supposed to go see a priest regularly to confess their sin, but when the priest asked me what my sins were, I could never think of any specific sins and just answered things like "I disobeyed my parents" as that was a safe bet, though I didn't really see my willfulness as sin.

In reading the gospels as a child, I imagined that I had to first become a sinner in order to be saved because I didn't recognize sin in myself. I had no sense of conviction by God at all, but felt justified in anything that I did. Even so I still had the desire to know the Lord and if that isn't hearing His call, I don't know what is.

I spent my entire youth and early manhood searching for the truth and not convinced that it was laid out in scripture, simply because my carnal mind was incapable of reconciling scripture to itself, much like the cults who claim to recognize Jesus but deny His equality to God. This was why I studied science, read books about the occult, world religions and philosophies, but nothing that I read could change who I was.

It was the faithful ministry of a coworker, a black brother in the Lord who shared testimony with me, explained scripture spiritually to me, demonstrated real change in himself, that prepared me to believe that the scripture was more than the work of clever men familiar with the human condition.

You have to hear the gospel and understand it in order to believe it. The book of acts tells us about a group of believers who had been baptized by John the Baptist, but hadn't even heard of the Holy Spirit. Immediately after hearing the gospel they recieved Him, but clearly He'd been working repentance in their hearts and calling them to Himself before they'd ever even heard the gospel.
God's work is effective even upon the "unsaved", but the gospel "is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes."

What specific part are your questioning?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Good day Michael, here is where we left off.

Salvation journey step by step.
1) We're born into this world. (obvious)
2) we are not born with the Spirit of Christ. (obvious)
3) Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them. So the first real step or thing that must happen in the salvation process is we are called out by the Father.
4) The correct response to the call of the Father is simply a turn from our way to His way in our minds. A mental turn from our way to the direction of the caller. This is the act of repentance.
5) Taking a step towards the caller with our first act of Faith towards Him. ( still haven't received His Spirit yet, none of His yet in step 5.)

Before we describe what this 5th step looks like in detail, do you agree that at this point in the process an act of Faith is required by us?

An argument could be made that your step #4 would not happen if the Holy Spirit were not working in you.....the “ correct response” may not happen if the Holy Spirit is not around.....

 

[HisLife]

I want more Grace

Ephesians 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Ok, if I misunderstood you. Then help me understand.

This is what you posted

That's what scripture says, so I believe it, but God's grace is primarily for the lost, not the saved.

To me this appears as you saying that grace is for the lost not the saved. (Even if you used the term primarily)

To me, what I sure appeared that grace is for the lost. Not the saved, hence if this is true, you do not think you need grace any more.

Edited to just stick to the point at hand..

Poor reasoning my friend. Christians are positionally saved and justified by the blood of Christ when we believe the gospel and receive the seal of the Holy Spirit, but our sanctification and the renewing of our minds is an ongoing process until we receive the redemption of our bodies. I believe the scripture that tells us that God will finish what He started and there are many such verses that give us assurance of our salvation, but we aren't simply saved for our own benefit. I don't get to receive His Spirit, kick back with a beer and watch the world March toward destruction and neither do you.
Saying that grace is primarily for the lost is not a mutually exclusive statement. We're all lost until we aren't.
And I'm not claiming that everyone is saved, but everyone is redeemed through Christ's sacrifice or He wouldn’t be judge of both the living and the dead. (I think that this was the obvious point to us.)
Faither is trying to lay out the normal spiritual experience of those who receive the Lord, but I'm not convinced that such spiritual experience is the same for everyone. I only know my own experience with certainty (though I could misunderstand that experience) and I can know the common experience of other saints with similar testimonies if I'm willing to believe them (and the Apostle exhorts us to do just that.) However, in performing the miraculous signs that He did, Jesus used varying methods to "heal the sick." Who am I to say that we should all have common experience beyond what the scripture specifically says?

We aren't given permission to judge others based upon our personal experience, but we are given the right to admonish a sinning brother, and to execute church discipline according to the order prescribed in the pastoral Epistles, with the understanding that the purpose is niether condemnation or permanent separation, but restoration.

The ministry of Jesus Christ is that of reconciling the world to Himself. The ministry of the church is still the same as "ambassadors of grace. "

We continue in His grace by abiding in Him, but I see nothing in scripture that says those sealed with His Spirit can loose their salvation, only the rewards commensurate with faithfulness, ergo, grace is primarily for the lost, not the saved. However, if you do not believe in the assurance of His word, I can understand your inability to receive this truth.

 

[michaelvpardo]

What specific part are your questioning?

The first act of Faith. When I sought to do good as a child, incorrectly believing that this merited an immediate reward, I acted in faith, but according to a flawed understanding. At that age everything was about me and my desire, not about God and His glory.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

At the start of the salvation journey, we all start without the Spirit of Christ sealed in us yet.

agree or disagree?

Totally disagree Sanctification (A Religious buzz word to means different things to different religious paradigms) is two-fold.

Positionally we're immediately Sanctified upon being Born Again by receiving the INDWELLING Spirit.

Experimentally, we take HIS YOKE upon us, and begin to LEARN OF HIM, which leads to us being "Set apart for HIS service progressively" - a life-long process. Rom 8:29.