The salvation journey.

[HisLife]

No cause for concern with me, HisLife.
Not everyone is GIVEN the same measure of faith and none of us should strive to use gifts that God's grace hasn't GIVEN. Sadly some do.

People try and do it often even mods on this site, women trying to rule the church when they should choose to be silent, people that cant actually discuss scripture so scheme, It comes back to this, Here is the formula, Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Mathew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

You cant use gifts you haven't been given, And there is no way you can measure anyone's Faith and you cant presume, I don't know what you're lacking, But if you made yourself a little clearer I might be able to give you a better answer, ask a question if you actually have one

 

[Faither]

I'm sorry, but you lost me at that last step. I'm not really understanding what you mean by first act of Faith. Are you referring to a saving faith? The good confession? I have no frame of reference to agree or disagree.
I don't know if it's the 16° weather or the hours of ministry, but I'm feeling pretty drained at the moment and shouldn't be trying to explain anything until the Lord fills me up again. Have a good night and perhaps we can continue this another day. There seems to be more mature believers in the conversation now anyway. Perhaps you can focus your discussion on their opinions or understanding. We all drink from the same cup, we all are partakers of the same Spirit. God bless and "hasta la vista."

Okay Michael, another day.

 

[Stumpmaster]

But if you made yourself a little clearer I might be able to give you a better answer, ask a question if you actually have one

Why do you want more grace?

I want more Grace

 

[HisLife]

Why do you want more grace?

Because you need it, unless your faking it, Its where Christians Stand, Grace is not about me. Grace is fundamentally about God, he offers it

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God is Love!, God is graceful, God is many things, Do you want more Love? do you want more Grace? Do you need Gods Love? Do you need Gods Grace? Do you want What God offers or do you think you can you handle things on your own

 

[Taken]

I understand the "Spirit of Christ" and the Holy Spirit to be the same.

I would say the Holy Spirit is the all encompassing Absolute Power of God, called by the name Christ.
Yet Gods one Holy Spirit has Specific things He directs His Power to accomplish certain things, taught in a fashion to mankind to Understand, calling His Spirit, as the Seven Spirits of God...denoting the Seven Specific things His one Holy Spirit is directed toward for His purpose.

Seven Spirits of God = One Holy Spirit = called Christ.
1) Spirit of the LORD
2) Spirit of Wisdom
3) Spirit of Understanding
4) Spirit of Counsel
5) Spirit of Power
6) Spirit of Knowledge
7) Spirit of Fear of the Lord

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

# 24

I'm trying really hard to look at this journey one happening at a time, in the simplest terms i can.

First happening.
1) We must be born into this world.
2) As the result of being born into this world, we are under Grace in this respect. Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out out it. As the result of being born into this world, we are part of this field. At this beginning stage, we "do not" have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet sowe are none of His at this beginning state of being. At this early stage, being under Grace simply means we are under the Judgment of Jesus Christ and we can do nothing to change that.

Do you agree? Or would you like to elaborate?

bumped

1) Yes, must be born into this world.

Elaborating;

2) As a result of natural birth...”we”
“We” defined as persons born last 2,000 years under Grace...Yes.
“We” defined as all persons accepting being under Grace...No.

3) Agree, “are without” the Spirit of Christ.

4) Agree, “are by design” under Judgement of Jesus Christ.

 

[Taken]

Faither ~
I recognized your intent. And from the get go noticed EG began with a discussion of her own, then “changing” a word you said, then disagreeing with you, then 10 more posts of distraction and others chiming in to distract.

(Note to @Eternally Grateful - Faither was establish-ING a premise FOR a discussion...which you began discussions BEFORE the premise was established...and then your post #11 completely change what Faither did say...more distracting.)

So Faither ~ Yes agree, natural birth, born without the Spirit ....
But have not seen.....
And immediately that born thing Given Gods Breath of Life...soul.

Maybe I missed that...
But find the “importance” of the soul...
1) brings that individual born body....into a individual living state.
....it’s eyes see, ears hear, nose smells...etc. senses functional.
2) all souls belong to God.
3) the life in the souls belong to God. (Ie Gods Breath)
4) the soul in a body, is call by that body’s name
5) the soul...from the get go, is the mysterious thing...that makes it POSSIBLE for any man to even RESPOND to knowledge he will begin hearing and learning ABOUT God.

(Saying in effect...on its face, How can an individual man, begin to Believe in an Unseen, Unheard God, “without” some measure of evidence “within” the individual man himself?
Yet, with a “soul”, every beauty and pleasantry the eye sees, the nose smells, the tongue tastes, the flesh feels, the ear hears......we get the internal result of the Unseen, Unheard God.)

Your next step 3) of being called by God....is POSSIBLE, because we all have a soul to react to that calling....(or ignore it).

@michaelvpardo
@Eternally Grateful

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh wretched man that I am, We All do Brother, without it we every single person would end up in hell, isn't Grace amazing, By grace we are saved through faith, its a gift, not of works so no one can boast, Best deal ever, Believe the truth, Believe Gods Promise Believe in the one who never did anything wrong, its so easy it seams to good to be true, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

well said. and so true. the true meaning of grace.

Unmerited favor. charity which is given to a person who is bankrupt in spirit who has nothing to offer.

This is grace. the gift of God through Jesus.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Faither ~
I recognized your intent. And from the get go noticed EG began with a discussion of her own, then “changing” a word you said, then disagreeing with you, then 10 more posts of distraction and others chiming in to distract.

(Note to @Eternally Grateful - Faither was establish-ING a premise FOR a discussion...which you began discussions BEFORE the premise was established...and then your post #11 completely change what Faither did say...more distracting.)

So Faither ~ Yes agree, natural birth, born without the Spirit ....
But have not seen.....
And immediately that born thing Given Gods Breath of Life...soul.

Maybe I missed that...
But find the “importance” of the soul...
1) brings that individual born body....into a individual living state.
....it’s eyes see, ears hear, nose smells...etc. senses functional.
2) all souls belong to God.
3) the life in the souls belong to God. (Ie Gods Breath)
4) the soul in a body, is call by that body’s name
5) the soul...from the get go, is the mysterious thing...that makes it POSSIBLE for any man to even RESPOND to knowledge he will begin hearing and learning ABOUT God.

(Saying in effect...on its face, How can an individual man, begin to Believe in an Unseen, Unheard God, “without” some measure of evidence “within” the individual man himself?
Yet, with a “soul”, every beauty and pleasantry the eye sees, the nose smells, the tongue tastes, the flesh feels, the ear hears......we get the internal result of the Unseen, Unheard God.)

Your next step 3) of being called by God....is POSSIBLE, because we all have a soul to react to that calling....(or ignore it).

@michaelvpardo
@Eternally Grateful

Glory to God,
Taken

this is a rude post my friend. And it is not taking in all the facts. and it is attemptin to make it sound like things happened which did not.

EG had a disagreement, And he tried to discuss it. But Faither shut the conversation down and refused.

@Faither began a post and something in his post he said I disagreed with.

I not only said I disagreed with one particular point he made. Unlike alot of people who just tell people they are wrong and attack them, I stated my disagreement and I explained why I disagreed, by making a few points of contention (post 5)

Someone else asked him a question about the seal of the spirit

Considering I have only heard the seal of the spirit one time in scripture. I posted that post to try to help in the conversation. (post 6)

Instead of explaining why it did not fit. like I did in my disagreement, He just stated it was not the question. (it would be like me in post 5 just saying, sorry, that is not true with no explanation)

In post 9, @Faither responded to post 5 of mine, But did not comment on my disagreement. He acted like I was jumping ahead, instead of discussing my disagreement that no one before salvation is in a state of grace (grace is offered to them, but they are not in a state of grace. They are in a state of condemnation)

He did not even give the common courtesy of answering my disagreement, and just pretty much blew me off

then in post 14 he just put me on ignore. He refused to respond to my questions. He refused to have an open discussion (when you have an open discussion, you listen to what people say, and you actually DISCUSS the disagreement, and at the very least. try to help them with their understanding)

then in post 19, in response to @Cassandra questioning what he did. he stated he wanted an open discussion.

you can call it whatever you want. But your dead wrong here. I did not do what I am accused of!

 

[Faither]

I would say the Holy Spirit is the all encompassing Absolute Power of God, called by the name Christ.
Yet Gods one Holy Spirit has Specific things He directs His Power to accomplish certain things, taught in a fashion to mankind to Understand, calling His Spirit, as the Seven Spirits of God...denoting the Seven Specific things His one Holy Spirit is directed toward for His purpose.

Seven Spirits of God = One Holy Spirit = called Christ.
1) Spirit of the LORD
2) Spirit of Wisdom
3) Spirit of Understanding
4) Spirit of Counsel
5) Spirit of Power
6) Spirit of Knowledge
7) Spirit of Fear of the Lord

Glory to God,
Taken

No disagreement with this. But not really the perspective of this discussion.

 

[Faither]

1) Yes, must be born into this world.

Elaborating;

2) As a result of natural birth...”we”
“We” defined as persons born last 2,000 years under Grace...Yes.
“We” defined as all persons accepting being under Grace...No.

3) Agree, “are without” the Spirit of Christ.

4) Agree, “are by design” under Judgement of Jesus Christ.

Great taken, we're in agreement so far.

The next step I would present to you, lets call it step 5.
5) As the result of the Father calling us out, we turn from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. This is an act of repentance in its simplest terms. A lot has been attached to what repentance is, but it's defined as a turning from our way to His way in our minds.

If we agree on this we can move forward.

 

[Faither]

Faither ~
I recognized your intent. And from the get go noticed EG began with a discussion of her own, then “changing” a word you said, then disagreeing with you, then 10 more posts of distraction and others chiming in to distract.

(Note to @Eternally Grateful - Faither was establish-ING a premise FOR a discussion...which you began discussions BEFORE the premise was established...and then your post #11 completely change what Faither did say...more distracting.)

So Faither ~ Yes agree, natural birth, born without the Spirit ....
But have not seen.....
And immediately that born thing Given Gods Breath of Life...soul.

Maybe I missed that...
But find the “importance” of the soul...
1) brings that individual born body....into a individual living state.
....it’s eyes see, ears hear, nose smells...etc. senses functional.
2) all souls belong to God.
3) the life in the souls belong to God. (Ie Gods Breath)
4) the soul in a body, is call by that body’s name
5) the soul...from the get go, is the mysterious thing...that makes it POSSIBLE for any man to even RESPOND to knowledge he will begin hearing and learning ABOUT God.

(Saying in effect...on its face, How can an individual man, begin to Believe in an Unseen, Unheard God, “without” some measure of evidence “within” the individual man himself?
Yet, with a “soul”, every beauty and pleasantry the eye sees, the nose smells, the tongue tastes, the flesh feels, the ear hears......we get the internal result of the Unseen, Unheard God.)

Your next step 3) of being called by God....is POSSIBLE, because we all have a soul to react to that calling....(or ignore it).

@michaelvpardo
@Eternally Grateful

Glory to God,
Taken

Thanks for acknowledging my intent. I'm really just looking for an honest discussion about this important subject.

Although i agree with your understanding concerning "the soul", I'm trying to focus on what "our" response, "our" responsibility, to what's mandated in Gods word to recieve His Spirit making us His.

Thanks again for validating what i was seeing in the discussion concerning some other posters. It's not very difficult to derail a difficult topic such as this.

 

[ScottA]

This is like examining the steps of heart surgery. Painful.

I prefer:

1. Born in the flesh
2. Drawn by God / Seeking
3. Convicted (rather than convinced)
4. Repentance (which is a choice to change, of choosing life rather than death, and a form of crying out to God for salvation, surrender).
5. God answers. But this I do not consider to be "a process." That would assume a timeline with matters of God who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." This step could of course be broken down by things that do occur, but it would be wrong to say that today this, and tomorrow that--as it is with us living in the world according to the shadows of turning. Salvation is according to God and on His terms, not of this world. I recommend not looking at it from this worldly perspective, but rather from God's perspective, where it is finished the moment we are given over to Him. This is death to the flesh, which may come in life or in death according to the world, but it is also that new birth in the Spirit according to God. The worldly perspective is sure to be wrong, but He is perfect. And if we are indeed given over to God, it is finished and we are free of sin and death, free indeed.

 

[michaelvpardo]

People try and do it often even mods on this site, women trying to rule the church when they should choose to be silent, people that cant actually discuss scripture so scheme, It comes back to this, Here is the formula, Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Mathew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

You cant use gifts you haven't been given, And there is no way you can measure anyone's Faith and you cant presume, I don't know what you're lacking, But if you made yourself a little clearer I might be able to give you a better answer, ask a question if you actually have one

I agree with you, but the bigger problem is actually saints who have been given gifts that don't use them, frequently because they are unaware that they've received them.

We come to christ generally with some type of natural talents or abilities, sometimes using them in our vocation, but the gifts of the Holy Spirit are unknown to us.

After believing the Lord and receiving His Spirit we should be aware of His presence by the witness of Christ within us, eg. Sharing the gospel with others, feeling convicted of our sin and confessing it to the Lord, finding within us a zeal for His word, etc. However, we can't know what spiritual gifts we have until the Holy Spirit manifests them in us. As a radical example, no person expects to recieve the gift of "healings" but if you find people being healed after you've held their hands and prayed with them, and this seems to happen regularly, you'll gradually realize that God has chosen to manifest this gift through you and you'll begin to understand when it's appropriate to apply it (under the unction of His Spirit.)

I've seen Christian questionnaires designed to help people discover their gifts, but self assessment has never been a reliable standard. Experiential revelation of our gifts is far more reliable, but you have to be active in ministry in order to find opportunity to "discover" those gifts.

Ministry "leaders" should always be equipped with the appropriate gifts for the ministry, but church ministry should never be a "solo" operation. Even street evangelism should at least include 2 or 3 ministry partners for witnessing. Jesus demonstrated this pattern (for reasons of God's law) when He sent out the 70 disciples in pairs of two to preach the gospel of the kingdom through the towns of Israel.

Ministry leaders should be demonstrably approved by God, recognized as having a degree of maturity, but ministry helpers can be newborns in Christ as long as the leaders are prepared to restrain their zeal and correct them as necessary. It's a bit like an apprenticeship, but in practice the "young" in Christ can discover their gifts by their participation and through the recognition of those gifts by their "spiritual elders" as they assist in ministry.

God's gifts will always manifest, but timidity in their use is the norm, not the exception. None of us, who've been shown our sin by the Holy Spirit, are overly inclined to be presumptuous in applying His power in ministry (though some are by nature more bold than others.)
We even have a pastoral epistle, 2 Timothy, in which the Apostle found it necessary to exhort the Pastor, Timothy, to stir up the gifts within Him, in order to be effective in ministry.

Our common errors are attempting to do God's work in our own strength, rather than in total reliance upon Him through prayer. All ministry should be bathed in prayer. You can have spiritual gifts appropriate to your ministry and still fail, simply by failing to call upon God and attempting to "perform" based upon your own strengths. God is not glorified in our strengths, we are.

9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Corinthians 12:9

If you don't appropriate these verses for ministry, you'll never be spiritually effective and will "burn out" frustrated by failure. Humility in ministry is the exact opposite of self reliance. Paul's comments seem counterintuitive to our carnal thinking, but remain absolutely true in God's economy.

This isn't just my testimony, but the testimony of effective missionaries that I met while serving on a Church's mission board, and entirely supported by the word of God and for His glory. Amen.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

again

If it is grace it is no longer of works. Grace is unmerited favor.

You work to merit a prize or reward or a wage by meeting the conditions required to earn that

grace on the other hand, Only Jesus met that condition. That is why it is offered as grace as a gift. We earn death because we have failed to meet the condition required to enter heaven on our own. Hence we need grace.

this has been true from adam and will continue to be true until this earth is destroyed and made new.

your right, there is no such thing as rebellious disobedient sinners who are saved. But all of us were these people at one time,. It was our salvation in this state that saved us. When we received the gift of grace to save us. John said clearly whoever sins has never seen or met God. whoever is born of God can not sin. So meeting some sin condition will not save you. keep you saved or keep you from losing salvation. If this was true, we would be under law not grace. and news flash. Everyone is cursed by the law. No one has met that condition. so if you think you can be GOOD enough to earn salvation. your wrong

As for abraham being under a different covenant.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

the gospel is the same for everyone. Grace can not be earned by conditions, it is a gift given to those who can not meet the conditions. if we could meet the conditions. we would not need grace

I have asked this question many times on this forum in various threads with no answer yet: where does the BIBLE define obedience to God's will as a work of merit one does to earn God's free gift????????????

Was the healing of Naaman by grace OR he earned by the obedient work in dipping in the Jordan??
Was the saving of Noah's house by grace OR he earned it by his obedient work in building the ark??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I have asked this question many times on this forum in various threads with no answer yet: where does the BIBLE define obedience to God's will as a work of merit one does to earn God's free gift????????????

Was the healing of Naaman by grace OR he earned by the obedient work in dipping in the Jordan??
Was the saving of Noah's house by grace OR he earned it by his obedient work in building the ark??

If your doing works to merit salvation.

Then your trying to merit a gift.

Romans 4”
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Obedience should be a result of salvation. It should be motivated by love and gratitude because he first loved us.

Its not done to merit something, that is not love based. Thats self based.

You want to earn salvation. Then your trying to merit, and the Bible calls those works of self righteousness, or bloody rags. Not works of sanctification

 

[Faither]

This is like examining the steps of heart surgery. Painful.

I prefer:

1. Born in the flesh
2. Drawn by God / Seeking
3. Convicted (rather than convinced)
4. Repentance (which is a choice to change, of choosing life rather than death, and a form of crying out to God for salvation, surrender).
5. God answers. But this I do not consider to be "a process." That would assume a timeline with matters of God who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." This step could of course be broken down by things that do occur, but it would be wrong to say that today this, and tomorrow that--as it is with us living in the world according to the shadows of turning. Salvation is according to God and on His terms, not of this world. I recommend not looking at it from this worldly perspective, but rather from God's perspective, where it is finished the moment we are given over to Him. This is death to the flesh, which may come in life or in death according to the world, but it is also that new birth in the Spirit according to God. The worldly perspective is sure to be wrong, but He is perfect. And if we are indeed given over to God, it is finished and we are free of sin and death, free indeed.

I think we agree close enough on step one, two, three and four to look at the next happening.

But first we need to agree that at the 4th step or repentance, we do not have the Spirit of Christ yet. If we agree on that, Christ is none of ours at that point. This also means His word and the promises in His word are not ours yet either. Just a common sense observation. Are we in agreement?

Like i stated in the OP, not promoting steps, stages, or exact timelines.

 

[ScottA]

I think we agree close enough on step one, two, three and four to look at the next happening.

But first we need to agree that at the 4th step or repentance, we do not have the Spirit of Christ yet. If we agree on that, Christ is none of ours at that point. This also means His word and the promises in His word are not ours yet either. Just a common sense observation. Are we in agreement?

Like i stated in the OP, not promoting steps, stages, or exact timelines.

We are in agreement.

 

[Faither]

We are in agreement.

Okay.
So we've made a repentant turn towards the caller or the Father. No Spirit of Christ yet so His Word and promises are not ours yet either.

We'll call the next step 6, or what is the initial or first act of Faith is.

The Father calls, we turn towards the caller, "we then take or first step towards Him ."

The first application of Faith towards God is defined by the Greek word "Pisteuo."

Pisteuo is defined in the Greek dictionary as, " a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." (Vines)

So that first step towards God is "us making a genuine surrendering of our lives to Him, and making daily decisions that support the surrender we've made. That our lives are no longer ours anymore but His now." this is what step 6 or the first act of Faith looks like.

Still in agreement?

 

[ScottA]

Okay.
So we've made a repentant turn towards the caller or the Father. No Spirit of Christ yet so His Word and promises are not ours yet either.

We'll call the next step 6, or what is the initial or first act of Faith is.

The Father calls, we turn towards the caller, "we then take or first step towards Him ."

The first application of Faith towards God is defined by the Greek word "Pisteuo."

Pisteuo is defined in the Greek dictionary as, " a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." (Vines)

So that first step towards God is "us making a genuine surrendering of our lives to Him, and making daily decisions that support the surrender we've made. That our lives are no longer ours anymore but His now." this is what step 6 or the first act of Faith looks like.

Still in agreement?

Yes, I agree (in principle).

However, my own testimony would be an exception-- not to the principle, but to the order of occurrences.

The exception, I would contribute to God's choosing, not mine. I was indeed drawn, but only as a last resort did I cry out to Him...and it was not so much a surrender, but a challenge and an ultimatum. You might say, He first volleyed to me, but I hit the ball back to Him, for which I can attest, He is not only merciful, but a good sport. ​

But, please do carry on.