The Samaritan Woman

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veteran

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Well, first you said there were no Isaelites left behind and I showed you there were. The Israelites were already mixing with Hittites, Canaanites, and all the other "ites" that were in the land, which was part of what destroyed them. They took wives and gods from among the native people. Now, there are many historical facts that are not in the Bible. Alexander the Great is not in the Bible. Not every fact that ever took place in the land of Israel is recorded in the Bible. But clearly the remnant left behind included many who were apostate. That much is certainly in the Bible, and then no further mention is made of them. They either died without reproducing, or they mixed. The only reasonable thing I can believe, given the Bible doesn't directly record their fate, is to believe they mixed. How else would gentiles from Assyria / Babylon acquire a belief in God as opposed to the polytheism of those nations? The Samaritans were trying in their corrupted way to worship God, not gods. That too is in the Bible. Given what is there in the Bible, there are few other reasonable things to beleive about the Samaritans. The Bible does not record what you are asserting about them either. In any case, neither the Samaritans nor the Jews knew God. That part is abundantly clear.

Look at Ezra 9 and note who God's Word shows mixing with Canaanites. It was those of the "house of Judah" captive to Babylon.

Some want to claim that the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" returned back to the holy lands from the lands of the Medes, Assyria, and ancient areas of the north. Thus they want to try and claim that Israel's split into two separate bodies, with the ten tribed majority brought back together with the "house of Judah" at some point in history. Or they want to claim that the ten tribes mixed themselves beyond recognition and are forever gone. That's simply not true per God's Word, and the Ezekiel 37 prophecy of God joining the two sticks back together in the future is only one of many Scriptures that is against those ideas about the ten tribes.

It's very probable, and possible, that some of the small number of ten tribe Israelites that chose to move to Judea and join with Judah when Israel was split (2 Chron.10:17) then trekked back to their original homes in the northern lands after... God had removed the ten tribes in the north captive by the kings of Assyria, with the king of Assyria supplanting them with Babylon peoples who became the Samaritans. But one of the most telling Scriptures is how the foreigner Samaritans were being attack by wild lions because they knew not "... the manner of the God of the land." So the king of Assyria sent an Israelite priest from the ten tribes back to the northern lands of Samaria to teach the foreigner Samaritans about our Heavenly Father (2 Kings 17:26-28).

The main reason God removed the ten tribes out of the northern lands of Israel first, was because of how they still had not removed the old calf idol worship in the north that Jeroboam king of the house of Israel had started. Per the Book of Hosea, it is primarily to the house of Israel, the ten tribes under Ephraim. And it contains prophecy about their final return under Christ in the future. Yet Apostle Paul in Romans also joined prophecy about the Gentiles receiving Christ along with those Hosea prophecies of the ten tribes' future return. Thus our Heavenly Father used... the ten tribes of Israel to help fulfill the Isaiah prophecies that The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be sent to the Gentiles also, and by that event the ten tribes would return to God along with believing Gentiles, and then in final be joined back with believing Judah at Christ's second coming as His Church.
 

Brother James

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Well, that helps me better understand why you believe as you do. You have a view of what is prophesied, and therefore history is viewed from that perspective. That's not how I do exegesis, but that's okay. I'm not right and everyone else wrong. I only understand as God gives me to understand. I do hope you recognize that you are also filling in details of history where the Bible is silent. The Bible and all other texts are silent about the 10 tribes after about 720 BC. Some hold to traditions about them, but there's no concrete evidence.

The Mormons take your view farther and believe the future restoration will be on the American continent. Without clear evidence that it is one way or another, I will leave it to God how He sees fit to fulfill His prophecies. I'm pretty sure it won't be the Mormon way, however :)
 

veteran

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Well, that helps me better understand why you believe as you do. You have a view of what is prophesied, and therefore history is viewed from that perspective. That's not how I do exegesis, but that's okay. I'm not right and everyone else wrong. I only understand as God gives me to understand. I do hope you recognize that you are also filling in details of history where the Bible is silent. The Bible and all other texts are silent about the 10 tribes after about 720 BC. Some hold to traditions about them, but there's no concrete evidence.

The Mormons take your view farther and believe the future restoration will be on the American continent. Without clear evidence that it is one way or another, I will leave it to God how He sees fit to fulfill His prophecies. I'm pretty sure it won't be the Mormon way, however :)

What you're saying then, is that I'm only making assumptions of how the prophecies about the ten tribed "house of Israel" have been, or are being fulfilled.

Reality is that no one... can understand ANY prophecy fulfillment without historical facts to reveal it. And I don't just mean 'secular' history when I say historical fact. There's more to historical fact than just what secular writers put in their text books. There's many existing archaeological artifacts that exist which are not covered by secular historians.

For the believing Christian, God's Holy Writ also contains historical facts, including facts about the ten tribes after their scattering...


James 1:1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
(KJV)

Some so-called 'secular history' does support prophecy in God's Word and cannot simply be placed on the back burner. The secular historians of the past like Herodotus, Strabo, et all, wrote about the peoples who migrated into Asia Minor and Europe from the east, of which Esdras II in the Apocrypha relates to one such history link about the migrations of the ten tribes.

Further, professor of Oriental languages and archeaologist Leroy Waterman of the University of Michagan, in The Royal Correspondence of the Assyrian Empire translated the names which the Assyrians used for the captive ten tribe Israelites in the Assyrian Tablets, and it turned out to be the name Cimmerian. On the Jehu Steel is written the name Khumri for what the Assyrians called Omri, one of the kings over the ten tribes. Secular anthropology covers a whole lot of history about the migrations of the Cimmerian peoples into Asia Minor and Europe from the east. Yet they admit they cannot figure out who such a great number of peoples like the Cimmerians were, or originated from originally in the east.

Thus there are 'hints' recorded even in secular history that agrees with God's Word on the matter. The Book of Hosea was written primarily about His scattering of the ten tribed house of Israel, but it also covers their return.

Amos 9:8-9
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
(KJV)

After Solomon's days, the "house of Israel" is put only for the ten tribes which God removed by the kings of Assyria. This is why in final, in Ezekiel 37 He tells Ezekiel to take two sticks and write Judah on one, and the other for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim. Then He tells Ezekiel to put the two sticks together, and let the people see him do it. Then He tells Ezekiel to explain to the people about His future joining of both sticks back together again, and gives specific time markers with it related to Christ's second coming and future.

But the Mormons, they take the majority of their teachings from Joseph Smith and the Persian golden tablets he supposedly found. A closer look at their belief system parallels a lot of things which Islam believes. The reason they had to move out west was because of how the Christian Church in the east saw them as a cult, since they held to many un-Biblical ideas.

So I have... noticed that when this subject of the ten tribes is brought up at times, some will try to implant the Mormonism ideas with it, which is only a vain attempt to create a 'guilt by association' false argument, which is what you're trying to do.

If you want to do that, then why not bring up the theory that the ten tribes are really the tribes of the American Indians? Some see that just as viable, I do not. The reason why some draw that link is because of a connection with American Indian languages and customs to ancient Canaanite-Hebrew. Problem is, many forget that ancient Canaanite-Hebrew was the early language of Canaan and the Canaanites. They also forget that the result of God confusing the one language at the tower of Babel, was that He also scattered the peoples to the FOUR CORNERS of the earth, which is where the American Indians migrated to the Americas from, crossing the Bering Straits.

IF... you were able to follow the evidence of God's Promises to Abraham involving His Birthright which first was to Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it ended upon per 1 Chron.5, then you would be able to understand what happened to the ten tribes of Israel, where they went, and who they are today. Obviously you've yet to understand that, which is one of the requirements. So I don't see wasting my time here with those who have made up their mind already without truly seeking out the Biblical and historical evidence.
 

Brother James

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Look, Veteran, I am not trying to create a conflict with you. If you are seeing one, that is not my intention at all. If you have taken offense it is offense where none was intended. I'll not say any more on the subject because it is more important to me for there to be peace among Chrisatians than for me to be "right". If there is a lack of peace, I don't want it to be on my account. In the end, it is not a fundamental issue how the "Samaritans" came to be.

I do encourage you to reflect inwardly on your own approach to these kinds of conversations with other believers. You seem to have your fangs extended needlessly. There is no enemy here.
 

veteran

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I'm not trying to create a conflict with you either. However, you did force me to a defense because of what you said in your previous post.
 

Brother James

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A defense is only needed if there is an attack. Again, if you felt I attacked you, I'm sorry. It is not my intention to attack anyone and if I come across that way I'd like to step back and examine what I'm doing. That's something I try to do constantly. Thanks for the feedback.
 

Faithful

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John 4:15-20
15 The woman saith unto Him, "Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw."
16 Jesus saith unto her, "Go, call thy husband, and come hither."
17 The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said unto her, "Thou hast well said, 'I have no husband':
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."
19 The woman saith unto Him, "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and Ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
(KJV)

Why did the subject immediately change there from the woman's past five husbands to her bringing up the matter that Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship?

You will find that contrary to some thoughts on the matter. That Christ was actually showing that she was not living as a Jewish woman whether samaritan or not, should. And she then showed the division between the Samaritian and other Jews. The Kingdom split into two Israel and Judah after the death of Solomon. Those from Judah continued to worship in the Temple at Jerusalem after the division. But the passage which actually unite the two Kingdoms beliefs is that they both knew the Messiah would bring the truth and therefore end the reasons why there was things like Sadducees and Pharisees.

Christ spoke to her the truth that no longer would they worship on a mountain or even in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Because true worshippers worship God in Spirit and Truth.
 

veteran

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A defense is only needed if there is an attack. Again, if you felt I attacked you, I'm sorry. It is not my intention to attack anyone and if I come across that way I'd like to step back and examine what I'm doing. That's something I try to do constantly. Thanks for the feedback.

Just so you won't be guessing, let me explain what I felt was an attack.

James -
You have a view of what is prophesied, and therefore history is viewed from that perspective. That's not how I do exegesis, but that's okay. I'm not right and everyone else wrong. I only understand as God gives me to understand.

A statement like that, "I'm not right and everyone else wrong..." is not one of admonition. It is an insuation that assumes one thinks he/she is above the other. In our discussion, it would involve matters of Bible knowledge and understanding, based on your next statement tied to it.

I have never claimed that I'm perfect and don't make mistakes. But that doesn't mean I cannot 'know' for certain about a Bible prophecy and history associated with it.



I do hope you recognize that you are also filling in details of history where the Bible is silent. .

If the details of history 'agree' with a prophecy in God's Word, then what? Bury that history? That's what the false Jews today want to do, but we as servants of Christ shouldn't have their view. The history details I gave above certainly do support the Bible prophecies about the ten tribed "house of Israel". What is apparent is that you have not really looked at that.

The Bible and all other texts are silent about the 10 tribes after about 720 BC. Some hold to traditions about them, but there's no concrete evidence.

Those are probably your most incorrect statements you made. God's Word is NOT silent about the ten tribed "house of Israel" after their separation from the "house of Judah". He simply does not specifically call them by tribe name after their removal and scattering, except for maybe ... Ephraim in Jer.31; Hosea; Ezek.37; Ezek.48; Zech.10; and of course in Gen.49 with a Message for all the 12 tribes in the last days.

The greater historical evidence about the ten tribes of the house of Israel under Ephraim after their scattering is with what is contained in God's Birthright promises through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and then to Ephraim and Manasseh. All one need do to understand what happened to them is to follow those promises and covenants contained in that, and it will only apply to a specific area and peoples on earth, the peoples where The Gospel of Jesus Christ first established, the Christian West and their associated territories.

You will find that contrary to some thoughts on the matter. That Christ was actually showing that she was not living as a Jewish woman whether samaritan or not, should. And she then showed the division between the Samaritian and other Jews. The Kingdom split into two Israel and Judah after the death of Solomon. Those from Judah continued to worship in the Temple at Jerusalem after the division. But the passage which actually unite the two Kingdoms beliefs is that they both knew the Messiah would bring the truth and therefore end the reasons why there was things like Sadducees and Pharisees.

Christ spoke to her the truth that no longer would they worship on a mountain or even in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Because true worshippers worship God in Spirit and Truth.

First of all, the Samaritans were NOT of Israelite origins. If you don't believe God's Word on that, then you wouldn't believe Jewish historians like Josephus about it either, although it's documented in both.

The Samaritan peoples were foreigners brought from Babylon and placed in the northern lands of Israel by the king of Assyria. That's why they knew not the God of Israel. The king of Assyria then sent for a priest of the house of Israel in captivity, and brought him back to the land to teach those Samaritans about The God of Israel, yet they still chose to worship their false pagan gods per 2 Kings 17.

That's the reason why Judah at Jerusalem would not have anything to do with the Samaritans. It was because of 1) they were foreigners from Babylon, and 2) they worshipped false gods in Babylon, and also did that when moved to the northern lands of Samaria.

With the Samaritan woman's claims, it sounds like she may have been an Israelite with what she said in John 4:20. But if that were so, she herself would not have asked our Lord Jesus this...


John 4:9
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto Him, How is it that Thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
(KJV)

John 4:27
27 And upon this came His disciples, and marvelled that He talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest Thou? or, Why talkest Thou with her?
(KJV)


So I'm not going to argue over that point. It's well established even there in John 4 that she was NOT of Israelite birth, but of the foreigners from Babylon that were moved to where the ten tribes had lived. Thus her five husbands serve as symbols for the five peoples from Babyon which she belonged to, and involved their pagan idol worship.

The fact that Jesus spoke with her was to show how Salvation would also go to the Gentiles, which was what He was talking about the time future to then when the true worshippers will worship God in truth and in spirit. And thus her witness of Christ most likely started that in her area of Samaria.
 

Brother James

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Veteran, I will add you to the growing list of people I will refrain from having conversations with here as well. You seem to look for offense where none is intended. You come across as hostile to what ever I say, and I don't want to have that affect on anyone. I also don't find your style of debate to be respectful or in any way edifying, so I'll leave the thread to you and others. Best wishes to you.
 

Isreal

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Even though our Lord Jesus was of the area of Nazareth in Galilee that originally belonged to the northern tribe of Zebulun, He was known as a Jew from the tribe of Judah with His Israelite brethren south in Jerusalem. That is shown by the Samaritan woman in John 4 also.

When the 70 years Babylon captivity was over, we are shown just what part of Israel returned to Judea per Ezra 2. The rest of the "house of Judah" chose to stay in Babylon after the captivity had ended. That actually made up the 'majority' of the "house of Judah" that stayed in Babylon. It was from Babylon where the majority of those Jews were later scattered from to other nations, like in Asia Minor where Apostle Paul was from.




They Scythians dwelt in lands around the Black Sea, around the 8th century B.C. at the earliest, close to the time when God removed the ten tribes out of the holy land. So that may well be true about their having something to do with fulfilling God's will for the house of Judah to go captive to Babylon later. In the 2nd century B.C., Scythia was conquered by Sarmatians further from the north east of Scythia (not Samaritans, but Sar-matians).
I believe that would be Judean and not Jew.
You are aware that the Assyrians come back later and took many Judeans captive?

Isn't it possible that the Samarian women assumed he was a Jew because he was coming from that direction?

Pilate said he was a Galilean and not a Jew so he sent him to Herod who was over Galilee.
Me thinks the Jew and Judean terms have been skewed in order to confuse the masses, which no doubt has happened.

Vet think on this.

Y'shua did go into Jerusalem and pull some sheep out of there.

think on this scripture
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If any sheep (which know his voice) were in Judea then he wouldn't have been sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Those of Judea were not lost at all.
 

veteran

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Veteran, I will add you to the growing list of people I will refrain from having conversations with here as well. You seem to look for offense where none is intended. You come across as hostile to what ever I say, and I don't want to have that affect on anyone. I also don't find your style of debate to be respectful or in any way edifying, so I'll leave the thread to you and others. Best wishes to you.

Now that definitely sounds hostile!

I believe that would be Judean and not Jew.
You are aware that the Assyrians come back later and took many Judeans captive?

Yep. But mainly to what area of Israelites? The house of Judah in Jerusalem. However, the Assyrians didn't really succeed in conquering Judea if you'll notice. God brought Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, upon Judea to do that, which is how the Jews went into a separate captivity to Babylon apart from the ten tribe's previous removal about 120 years prior.


Isn't it possible that the Samarian women assumed he was a Jew because he was coming from that direction?

Doesn't say how she thought our Lord Jesus was a Judean, but John 4 does make it pretty plain both knew the difference, including His disciples also that wondered why He was speaking to a Samaritan woman.

Pilate said he was a Galilean and not a Jew so he sent him to Herod who was over Galilee.
Me thinks the Jew and Judean terms have been skewed in order to confuse the masses, which no doubt has happened.

Yep. Kind of obvioius too isn't it? I mean for those who actually study all of God's Word and history to be familiar with these differences.

Vet think on this.

Y'shua did go into Jerusalem and pull some sheep out of there.

Yes. and???


think on this scripture
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If any sheep (which know his voice) were in Judea then he wouldn't have been sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Those of Judea were not lost at all.

In the greater number of Israelite sense, the ten tribed "house of Israel" had been long gone from the holy lands by the time of our Lord Jesus' first coming. Per 1 and 2 Kings, we know a few small remnants from the ten tribes refused Jeroboam's golden calf idol worship, and instead went down to Jerusalem/Judea and joined with the "house of Judah" (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi). That's what the Levites living among the northern ten tribes had to do also, once they were cut off from serving Israel as priests because Jeroboam's false idol worship replacement among the ten tribes. Most likely that was Anna's origin who was from the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2).

Look at the greater picture, the whole forest instead of just the trees. God used the scattering of all the 12 tribes to bring The Gospel to the Gentiles once Christ died on the cross. But before He did that, the ten lost tribes were first given their fill of pagan Baal worship against Him, since that's why He spiritually divorced them and scattered them among the Gentiles as He warned Israel He would do if they fell away from Him (Deut.4 & 28).

One can know per history that it was not the majority of the "house of Judah" that He used to take The Gospel to the Gentiles, but mainly the ten tribes. As a matter of fact, still today the majority of the "house of Judah" (Jews) still refuse to believe Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ-Messiah.