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Warning: My previous posts caused some teeth to rattle, and so might these...
So who specifically are the seven churches if they represent today’s modern Churches? Are Catholics included? Are Pentecostals included? Are JW’s and SDA’s included? Who is excluded? On what basis are some churches included and others excluded?
My personal views of this will not be agreed on by those who fly the flag of any particular denomination. The Catholics formed their opinions 1600 years ago, and they will not change their views now. The Reformers developed their opinions 300-400 years ago, and they will not change their views now. The JW’s, SDA’s, and Pentecostals formed their opinions 100-200 years ago, and they will not change their views now. So in short, most denominations will disagree with my views, which are different and new.
I believe that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) This is my confession of faith. However, “God’s solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from evil.” (2 Timothy 2:19) So confessing Jesus requires certain expectations from us; and as every denomination believes that they are fulfilling those expectations, all denominations are saved, and all are part of the true church. “You are saved through faith”. All denominations, though, are called to repent! That means that they aal have a ticket to the wedding feast; but that does not mean they will be allowed in. Without our proper dress, given to us by the Holy Spirit, we are not fit to enter.
All denominations proclaim that we should all believe the same things; but the description of the Seven Churches in Revelation shows that we DO NOT all believe the same thing.
The Catholics (and Orthodox churches) are the first international sect of Christendom; and this is the Church of Ephesus.
“I know your works, and your labor, and your patience…”
They have been here the longest, they still exist, and the recognition of their longevity is mentioned.
The Protestants (Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, etc.) are the second international sect of Christendom, and they are the church of Smyrna.
“Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days: be you faithful to death, and I will give you a crown of life.”
These churches and Christians will undergo a special tribulation in England. This is not because they deserve it, but because they are in a country that will yet make a spectacle out of Christians in persecution.
The Millennial sects (such as SDA’s, JW’s, Christadelphians, etc.) are the third international sect of Christendom, and they are the Church of Pergamum.
“You have there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam… So have you also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.”
These churches introduce heresy on a large scale. They have doctrines that the other churches hate and cannot tolerate.
The Pentecostals are the fourth international sect of Christendom, and they are the church of Thyatira.
“You suffer that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.”
These churches introduce immorality and “gifts” that cause a great deal of confusion, liberalism and unrepentant attitudes.
The Messianic Jewish-Christians are the fifth international sect of Christendom, and they are the church of Sardis.
“I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and are dead.”
The valley of dry bones is applied to this church, that they now have been resurrected in these end times. The fact is, they are dead in their sins and lack of repentance.
The Repentant Church is the sixth international brotherhood, and they are the church of Philadelphia.
“Because you have kept the word of my patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come on all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth.”
These ones have repented of their churches, their immorality, their falseness; their doctrines, and their hatred. They alone are preserved through the great tribulation. They represent all of those in the former churches who have repented. The two witnesses will call Christians out for salvation, and these ones alone will respond to the calling of God’s anointed ones.
The Unrepentant Christians are the last association of Christians, and they are the church of Laodicea.
“So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.”
These ones have not repented of their churches, their immorality, their falseness; their doctrines, or their hatred. They are all of the previous churches labelled into one church, for all the wheat and weeds will be separated, and the wheat will be in one pile, while the weeds in another.
The two witnesses will divide the churches into sheep and goats; or at least the separation will occur during their ministry. There are Pharisees among us who will stick to their church views even when “fire comes down from heaven”. Although these two have been appointed by God, the Pharisee-Christians will dispute and argue with them, causing confusion and complacency among the majority.
This is my opinion. I have left the stones down by your feet, and I am ready to be stoned.
God Bless
Steve
There's no way to specifically assign the end time representative of the Church of Smyrna to Englanders.
Many from all nations in the Christian west will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Christ Jesus, not just in England.
... I believe British-Israelite theology is heresy, and I would expect particular opposition from British advocates who hold England in such high regard. The problem with people who belong to a sect or a cult on these forums; they do not come out and identify themselves... they just sow their discordant and heretical views without anyone being aware that their polluted ideas come from a cult. I wanted to expose where your teaching came from. No hard feelings. I like you personally, and I think you are very intelligent.
You apparently have not studied the migrations of the tribes of Israel. There are apparently, many things you are unaware of as far as the history of our people, Israel.
I cannot hold to the idea of the Pentecostal church being the thyatirean church because the Spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Hi Veteran,
On face value, what you are saying is true. I do not believe, however, that England alone will be persecuted; but that England will actually be destroyed. Persecutions will still occur in other locations. Christian institutions from England, particularly the Anglican establishment, will no longer exist in any strength. This great mountain will be thrown into the sea.
I believe that these prophecies of the seven churches are not isolated in revelations alone; but that the same prophecies exist elsewhere in scripture as well (particularly in the Minor Prophets). In other prophecies there are more details that unfold greater clarity… I have made my estimations based on many different prophecies, not just from revelation. Revelation just so happens to develop the same themes that were spoken of elsewhere.
The other prophecies are way out of the scope of this discussion, and they require a great deal of scrutiny of prophecies in Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the Minor Prophets. I have spent several years examining these prophecies, and I have produced a three column bible of the Minor Prophets, with the Masoretic, Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls. My observations are based on many of the scriptures that have variants; I have found these variants to be keys for further scrutiny. One example is the prophecies relative to Tyre; the mountain thrown into the sea (variant: Carthage).
Perhaps one day we could explore these subjects further... but then again, perhaps not: obviously I am "not well-studied in Scripture enough to even know about it." Yes, I believe British-Israelite theology is heresy, and I would expect particular opposition from British advocates who hold England in such high regard. The problem with people who belong to a sect or a cult on these forums; they do not come out and identify themselves... they just sow their discordant and heretical views without anyone being aware that their polluted ideas come from a cult. I wanted to expose where your teaching came from. No hard feelings. I like you personally, and I think you are very intelligent.
[/color] ...in the Christian west is where those promises manifested after Christ's crucifixion, and still are today. That part of prophecy you apparently have missed, as many have that instead listen to blind hirelings and the crept in unawares among Christ's Churches. And it's understanding about this that changes many things involving the end time events involving Christ's Church everywhere.
Hi Veteran,
I am happy to miss this part of the “white Israel” theology. I find this message extremely offensive to black and Asian nations who do not belong, in your estimation, to the “true tribes of Israel”. The gospel that I understand and believe in is intended for every nation; the bible was not written for the white nations only. The way you reinvent the gospel to apply the prophecies to the lost tribes of Israel is heretical. This is NOT the teaching that was passed down through the Apostles. It is alien to the entire history of the church, and it is part of the heretical movement belonging to the Church of Pergamum.
You have some people there who follow the teaching of Balaam, who instructed Balak to put a stumbling block before the people of Israel so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality. In the same way, there are also some among you who follow the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore, repent! If not, I will come against you quickly and make war against those people with the sword of my mouth.”
Balaam was a false prophet; as was Joseph Smith; Charles Taze Russell; Ellen White; Herbert Armstrong; and E. Raymond Capt. These hated doctrines, hated by Christ and all other churches, bring divisions and hostility among Christians. I pray the eyes of your heart might find understanding.
“God is telling me that someone has stomach problems”; or “The Lord just said to me that a woman is doubting in her heart… she is in the middle row, so please raise your hand…”
I believe Israel is the people of God it has noting to do with race at all when Jesus Christ came to show us all the way. God knows his people they are the ones that abide in him. The goats are ones with some faith but are lacking, is that true Steve.
We all seem to have our own ideas about the seven churches...here is my rendition.... the seven churches and in due course would become steeped in iniquity, false teaching, blasphamies and totally different from how Jesus taught it. Now, we are in the last days and Jesus is saying to the remnants of those seven churches...you have changed and not what you should be...
“Now, we are in the last days and Jesus is saying to the remnants of those seven churches...you have changed and not what you should be...”
A good friend of mine from an Anglican [Mainline] background, has been in the healing ministry for many years and has traveled the world over, evangelizing, healing and delivering thousands of people by the leading of the Holy Spirit. He does this also: That does not make it wrong.
There are many things within Pentecostal churches that are admirable. I also think that JW’s have some admirable features… They take immorality seriously, and they put the other churches to shame in this respect. I am not against any denomination, and I do not think one church is the most superior. Each church is called to repent.
I do not think that evaluating the Pentecostal Church along with the JWs, in the same sentence, is a fair comparison...
Hi Mr Rosenberger,
Yes, this is basically true as far as I am concerned. I object to the British-Israel view because it reinterprets the entire bible from a “white-supremacy” view. They are also extremy racist. Veteran may be an exception to the rule; but most are this way. They believe the prophecies in Genesis 49, and elsewhere, are related to the nations of the world today, and their crafty manipulation of history has pitted those nations to all be white Caucasian nations. This is a corruption of history as well as scripture, and it puts them in the same interpretative camp as the Mormons. They have crept into many mainstream churches today with this teaching, and a few ignorant pastors have conceded to these fallacies, which they then go and use this concession as a reference for their orthodoxy.
All churches are becoming more and more mixed with different colours and flavours… As Angelina said, the Pentecostal movement has migrated into Anglican churches. This is the nature of all seven churches though. All seven churches have a little bit of Catholic in them; all now have a little bit of grace teaching; all have a little bit of heresy; and healing, and Zionism… All of these churches belong to Christ, yet they have different dogmas and traditions. All of these churches, which represent Catholics, Anglicans, Pentecostals, etc, are all called on to repent. That means they all contain good, and they all contain bad. They are not called to abandon their churches, but to repent. They cannot and will not repent if they do not believe they are in the wrong... the first step of repentance is to acknowledge your wrong.
The Book of Revelation was written to these seven churches (“John to the seven churches which are in Asia.” Rev 1:4). The message was to explain things that were going to take place in the future. Christ is explaining to us what we would become, and why we need to repent. These seven “Asian” churches were not relevant in church history; for they were intended to represent the world-wide churches when Christ returns. This is very clear, because Jesus told the churches to repent; otherwise He would come upon them as a thief, etc… Christ made four separate allusions to His return, so the churches had to be present when Christ returns.
So again, Christ is explaining the state and nature of the churches at the point of His return. If Pentecostals are disciples, then they are included; if Catholics are disciples, then they are included, etc.
Ezekiel Chapter 34 is an example of the separation of sheep and goats that applies to our time: “thus says the Lord God, Behold, I will distinguish between sheep and sheep, and between rams and he-goats.” (LXX vs 17). The separation you mentioned is a little more involved, as can be seen from Ezekiel. Ezekiel and Jeremiah foreshadow the two witnesses. The Ezekiel type person has a ministry particularly to the seven churches, while the Jeremiah type person has a ministry particularly to the nations.
God Bless
Steve