Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The point that Enoch2010 is making is correct. In 1 Thess.4 Paul said that we alive who remain shall not precede (KJV "prevent") those alseep who have died in Christ.iamlamad said:Sorry, but those that are alive and remain are NOT GOING to DIE to be changed! Where did you ever get that idea? There is not even a hint that those in this crowd without number has died. Instead, they were CHANGED. 1 Thes 4:17
Lamad
veteran said:Actually, you're the one who missed what our Lord Jesus said, and that because you instead heed men instead of our Lord's Words.
I just love... those fake tirades like, "that was 2000 years ago, we now live 1981 years later." Those kind of statements are like riddles used to get your mind on a certain track away from what the real subject is.
[Like, 3 guys wanted to get a hotel room. The room cost $30; they each paid $10. A mistake was made, the room only cost $25, so the bellhop was given five one dollar bills and told to recompense the 3 guys. On the way up to the room the bellhop wonders how he's going to split the five one dollar bills between the three guys. So the bellhop decides to keep $2 and gives each of the three guys $1. That means each guy only wound up paying $9 a piece for the room, and so... 3 times 9 = 27, and the bellhop kept $2, which makes a total of $29. So where did the other dollar go??? (The Answer: each of the 3 guys actually paid $9.3333... . It's the misleading direction of getting you to add up the $29 figure that's designed to get your mind off track of a mythical missing dollar).]
The main subject of Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the signs of the end of the world which His disciples on the Mount of Olives with Him asked Him to declare. So our Lord Jesus began declaring to them the signs of the very end of this world, and the sign of His coming.
Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
(KJV)
The end of this world today just so happens with Christ's second coming, His return, which of course is still future to us today. So there's no mistaking what end of the world His disciples asked Him about there, including what the signs of that timing would be.
So right off the bat, the MAIN SUBJECT IS: the sign of Christ's second coming and the signs of the end of this present world. Just that right there puts all the signs in the final generation on earth that will see Christ's return.
Jesus then gives them 7 specific signs that parallel the Seals of Rev.6. They are in the same order in Matt.24 and Mark 13 as they are in Rev.6. So that's a parallel study with those chapters together. The 7th, or final sign He gave there is only partially covered in Rev.6 with part of the 6th Seal about Christ's coming and the wicked seeking to hide from Him.
The 2nd Seal of Rev.6 is what Christ's words about wars and rumours of wars is about. The 2nd Seal is about a red war horse to take peace from the earth. So that is the 2nd Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse. And the last part of that Jesus said, which many preachers leave out, is that as long as wars and rumours of wars is going on, then the end is not yet. So don't worry about those wars and rumours of wars He said, they don't point to the very end. What kind of time was He pointing to that we do... need to be concerned about then? The time opposite of wars and rumours of wars, which is what kind... of time? A time of peace and safety.
In 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul gave the endtime sign when all wars will have stopped just prior to Christ's second coming. He said when they shall say, "Peace and safety", then sudden destruction will come upon them, meaning upon the deceived who don't watch and remain sober (i.e., spiritually sober). So for the very end of this world, just prior to Christ's return, there will be a short time of "Peace and safety" the deceived will be proclaiming. Since Christ won't be yet, who do you think will bring in that time of "Peace and safety"? That's right, the false messiah, the final Antichrist that's to come prior to our Lord Jesus' coming.
The Pre-trib doctrinists purposefully forget... to tell their congregations about that time of "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned for the very end of this world just prior to Christ's second coming.
Furthermore, the following Scripture in our Lord's Olivet Discourse make it very clear that ALL those 7 signs are to happen WITHIN the final generation that will experience Christ's second coming...
Matt 24:33-36
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
What? did He say, when ye shall see all these things over a period of 2000+ years? No, He did not say that, nor even imply that idea. The next verse proves He was not speaking of the Apostle's days, but the final generation on earth that will 'see' all those things...
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
What generation won't pass untli all those things are fulfilled? It's simple. The very last sign Jesus gave there is about the sign of His coming and gathering of His Church, both from Heaven and from the earth. Did that happen in His Apostles' days? No. It still has not happened yet today either. So He was definitely not speaking of their generation of time for all these signs. Yet He made it specific that generation there would see... "all these things" (v. 33).
Let's read that v.33 phrase again: "... when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Did He say when ye shall see SOME of these things? No... He said "when ye shall see all these things", meaning ALL those signs He gave. Did He mean when a generation past sees SOME of those signs, and another later generation sees others of those signs, and a final generation sees the final sign? No, for that would mean THREE generations, two having passed with each only seeing 'some'... of those signs.
Apostle John was captive on the Isle of Patmos when Christ gave him His Book of Revelation to send to the seven Churches in Asia, which was the time of emperor Domitian's reign (approx. 96 A.D.). So Jerusalem and the 2nd temple had already been destroyed by then. Since the Seals of Revelation are directly connected to these 7 signs of the end Jesus gave, that shows were for a later date than 70 A.D.
The first seal covered in Rev.6 is about the rider on a white horse conquering, an antitype of our Lord Jesus. That parallels the coming of a fake (i.e., the Antichrist) in place of our Lord Jesus Who indeed will return upon a white horse per Rev.19. Yet we know that fake does not come on the very 1st Seal. For today, the faithful of Christ's Church are still waiting for the appearance of the final Antichrist upon this earth, coming to work great signs and wonders for the very end to deceive the whole world. Jesus covered that event in the Matt.24:23-26 sign, and also about the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" in a temple in Jerusalem (wasn't setup in 70 A.D. Jerusalem). So that's more proof that all these things, i.e., seven signs, are for the very end of this world in the final generation, and not some time prior.
Further also, the 5th Seal about some of Christ's servants delivered up to councils and synagogues to give Christ's Testimony by The Holy Spirit at the very end prior to His coming has NOT happened yet today either. Christ said for those to not premeditate what they will say, but speak whatever The Holy Spirit gives them to speak. That is a direct pointer to the Joel 2 prophecy for the very end in relation to the cloven tongue of Pentecost (that's right, the Joel 2 prophecy quoted in Acts 2 is about the very end of this world, not the day of Pentecost. The cloven tongue manifesting on the day of Pentecost was an example only). That is the actual event for the very end which Peter was pointing when he quoted from Joel 2, saying, "But this is that...". It's that event in Joel 2 which is meant by The Gospel going out to all nations per the Matt.24:9-14 Scripture, it's linked with His servants in the end being delivered up (see Mark 13:9-11 also). That is another proof those 7 signs are for the final generation on earth.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
In what... generation is that above to occur? Obviously, it cannot happen until all these signs are fulfilled in the final generation on earth, the generation that will see Christ's second coming. Peter gave a brief description about it in 2 Pet.3:10 when the end of this world will come on the day of The Lord, when the elements (rudiments) of man's works are burned off this earth, literally.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
(KJV)
Only The Father knows that day of Christ's second coming on the day of The Lord to take direct reign over all nations.
Our Heavenly Father and The Holy Spirit will NOT contradict His Holy Writ.
But YOU claim Christ is coming PRIOR to the tribulation to gather His Church when God's Word says no such thing.
So I agree with John S, God is not speaking to you, but another spirit is.
Sorry, you must take off those preconceived glasses. This is his quote:veteran said:The point that Enoch2010 is making is correct. In 1 Thess.4 Paul said that we alive who remain shall not precede (KJV "prevent") those alseep who have died in Christ.
Paul also said there for us to not worrry about those who have died in Christ that sleep in Jesus, for He will bring them WITH Him when He comes.
Christ is coming from Heaven. That's where those who sleep in Him are, those who have died in Christ.
On the day of The Lord when Jesus returns to end this present world on the last generation, He will bring the asleep saints with Him, and His saints still alive on earth will be 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" like Paul also said in 1 Cor.15. Then BOTH groups are joined together to go to Jerusalem on earth where Christ is returning to per Acts 1 and Zech.14.
And you think we are the ones missing it. WHERE are the bodies of the Dead in Christ? Where are the bodies of those alive an remaining? WE ARE ON THE EARTH. Your gathering is from heaven. WAKE UP and realize that is not the rapture of the church, but some other gathering. It will come 7 years after Paul's rapture gathering.BLACK SHEEP said:The level of deception among pre-tribbers will always amaze me.
May God help all the misguided pre-trib believers.
Lamad,
You are obsessed with pretribulationism and fabrication. You don't care about truth. You care about supporting a false teaching.
It takes just one verse to explain the rapture.
The words of Jesus.....
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days..... Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven......And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds.
Shame on all pretribulationist for perverting God's Word.
And to top it all off lamad you think the first seal is the gospel!
The gospel is never associated with a bow.
iamlamad said:Sorry, but those that are alive and remain are NOT GOING to DIE to be changed! Where did you ever get that idea? There is not even a hint that those in this crowd without number has died. Instead, they were CHANGED. 1 Thes 4:17
Lamad
Greetings veteran,veteran said:1Thes 4:13-15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede in the Greek) them which are asleep.
(KJV)
That's what he was talking about, a Scripture that you totally and completely... missed from 1 Thess.4, simply because you choose to listen to the liars of the Pre-Trib Rapture theory school.
Wake up! Paul's "gathering" is the gathering of the Dead in Christ AFTER they have joined with their bodies and are gathering together WITH those alive and remaining. Your imagination runs wild, trying to force a square peg into a round hole. PAUL DID NOT MENTION any gathering going on in heaven - that is your imagination running wild, trying desperately to hold onto false doctrine. Paul begins with those asleep as they are on the way DOWN with Jesus. His is bringing them WITH Him. Sorry, but Paul's gathering is on earth and in the air above the earth. Lamadveteran said:1Thes 4:13-15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede in the Greek) them which are asleep.
(KJV)
That's what he was talking about, a Scripture that you totally and completely... missed from 1 Thess.4, simply because you choose to listen to the liars of the Pre-Trib Rapture theory school.
Might ought to try reading that 1 Thess.4 Scripture again then...iamlamad said:Wake up! Paul's "gathering" is the gathering of the Dead in Christ AFTER they have joined with their bodies and are gathering together WITH those alive and remaining. Your imagination runs wild, trying to force a square peg into a round hole. PAUL DID NOT MENTION any gathering going on in heaven - that is your imagination running wild, trying desperately to hold onto false doctrine. Paul begins with those asleep as they are on the way DOWN with Jesus. His is bringing them WITH Him. Sorry, but Paul's gathering is on earth and in the air above the earth. Lamad
That is exactly what I said! OF COURSE the dead in Christ rise first. That is what is written. Here is what I wrote:veteran said:Might ought to try reading that 1 Thess.4 Scripture again then...
1Thes 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
(KJV)
Christ bringing the asleep saints with Him is NOT about the saints on earth being caught up first and returning with Him. That is clearly shown in the below Scripture too...
1Thes 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)
There's a colon ":" before that last phrase of v.16 ": and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It goes with what Paul said in verse 15 that we alive on earth SHALL NOT PREVENT (precede in the Greek) them which are alseep.
Thus the asleep saints are with Christ FIRST, and He brings them with Him like v.14 says, when He descends.
THEN... the saints alive on earth are "caught up", in that order.
But what does the Pre-Trib Rapture theory of men teach instead???
It teaches that those who remain on earth are "caught up" to Heaven, to be WITH Christ and the asleep saints IN HEAVEN, for the whole period of the "great tribulation", 1260 days! And then after... the tribulation, all the saints... return FROM HEAVEN WITH JESUS back to the earth. That is NOT what Apostle Paul said there at all though.
And there's no sense in the Pre-Tribbers trying to modify their rapture timing either like in the Mid-point, for the original 1800's doctrine was the idea of a rapture of all the Church off the earth to Heaven, and then WAIT out the tribulation, and then return FROM HEAVEN with Jesus, back to the earth (like a bouncing rubber ball).
The antichrist will cause Israel to be divided to gain peace. When Egypt and Syria attack Israel the antichrist will be given a crown to go enforce the peace treaty.guysmith said:With the opening of the first seal we are introduced to a rider on a white horse.
Revelation 6: 1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
This rider represents the Anti-Christ, in possession of a bow, attempting to imitate Christ which rides a white horse but with a sword coming from His mouth.
Copyright by Guy Smith 1997 Fair Use For Educational and Discussion Purposes
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
This is very good, except it is a myth that the rapture is found in Rev. 4:1. Go back and read it again - or better yet, find a 5th grader to read it - someone who has no preconceived ideas. He or she will say this passage is about JOHN begin called up.....for what purpose? To learn about future events. Would that be the purpose of the rapture? No, that is NOT the purpose of the rapture. So it is just poor exegesis to make this the rapture. People have chosen this verse, because they were desperate to find the rapture somewhere before the DAY and His wrath begins. Most pretribbers STILL don't understand the vision of the throne room. It is the context for the first seals, and must be understood to understand the seals.Trumpeter said:Greetings all,
Chapter 6 introduces the Tribulation hour upon the earth, a word of explanation is in order concerning the placement of signs. Some sincere Christians say, "Matthew 24:14 states that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come. Since there are some tribes who have not yet heard, Jesus Christ cannot return." Such people have their signs in the wrong place, because the rapture is a silent, timeless event. Let's investigate this statement further.
What relationship exists between the Rapture and prophetic signs? None. Are you shocked? The rapture is only an evacuation of believers before the great judgment of the tribulation hour. It is a meeting in the heavenlies and not Christ's return to the earth. Since His first coming was to earth, his second coming must also be to earth. The Rapture, then, is not a coming to earth, but a meeting in the clouds. Seven years later we will return with Him, and all the signs point to his coming when He returns to earth.
Watch the simplicity of this next statement unfold. Take two Bibles and place them side-by-side. Open one to the book of Revelation, Chapter 6, where the signs begin. Then open the other to Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 or Luke 21. Compare the signs in these chapters with those found in the book of Revelation. The inescapable conclusion? They are identical! The texts are practically the same. The church is Raptured in chapter 4, verse 1, and believers -represented by the 24 elders in verses 10 and 11- are placing crowns at the Saviour's feet before the signs and judgments of the tribulation our begin in Chapter 6 through 18. The signs, then, are post-Rapture and pre-Revelational. In other words, they are fulfilled after the Rapture and before the Revelation- after Christ calls His Saints home to heaven and before He returns with them to earth. Not one sign needs to be fulfilled prior to the Rapture, because all the signs point to the Revelation, or the revealing of Christ through the air. Thus, there is a period of seven years following the Rapture during which every sign can be adequately fulfilled. This of course is the tribulation hour after we Christians have been Raptured.
At this point every believer should praise the Lord, because the next statement is utterly fantastic. Since the signs point to Christ's return to earth, and since we believers return with Him, then the logical deduction is that all signs point to our return with Christ. Presently the signs are casting their shadows. They are all beginning to be fulfilled. The prophecies take place after we believers are gone and which indicate that we will return with Him are already beginning. If the signs indicate that we are coming back with Jesus soon, and we are still on earth, how very, very soon must the Rapture then occur to take us out of this earth so that, seven years later, we can return with Him!
God bless.
If you actually heed... what Apostle Paul taught, like in 2 Cor.5 that there is another type bodily existence, then you would know that those in Christ that have died are already in the heavenly, and not in the ground. Belief that 'we', our 'person', originates from material flesh matter is not a Biblical doctrine. It's a doctrine of deceived Jews.Trumpeter said:Greetings veteran,
Would you care to share with us how Jesus is going to bring the dead back if he hasn't picked them up yet?
God bless.
iamlamad said:That is exactly what I said! OF COURSE the dead in Christ rise first. That is what is written. Here is what I wrote:
"Paul's "gathering" is the gathering of the Dead in Christ AFTER they have joined with their bodies and are gathering together WITH those alive and remaining."
That's NOT... what the 1 Thess.4 Scripture states, for Paul was more specific.
Paul said Christ will bring the asleep saints WITH Him when He comes. That means FROM the Heavenly. When Paul said we who are alive and remain shall no way 'precede' those (KJV word "prevent"), that means the alive saints shall NOT... precede the dead saints to Heaven. The word 'precede' (Greek phthano) means 'beforehand', and in this case it means go before.
1Thes 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(KJV)
The alive saints on earth at Christ's coming shall not go to Heaven prior to the asleep saints. That's what Paul said there.
It's a very important distinction too, because the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine you hold to instead teaches those alive on earth are "caught up" with the asleep saints to be joined with Christ, and then they and Christ WAIT out the tribulation in Heaven, then all return to the earth with Jesus FROM Heaven after the tribulation is over. That of course is not what Jesus taught nor Paul.
Note, "after they have joined with their bodies..." They are coming down with Jesus in SPIRIT form, for their bodies were buried. God is going to RAISE those same bodies as resurrection bodies. The spirits will join with the bodies. So you are still trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Paul's "gathering" is on the earth.
Nowhere there does the Scripture say the asleep saints are joined with their flesh bodies. You're trying to ADD... that idea. It's not there. The term "which sleep in Jesus" is a symbolic term for the saints that have already died and are already... with Jesus in the Heavenly. Remember Christ's story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16. When our flesh dies our soul with spirit goes to either one side of Paradise or the other. That's what Eccl.12:5-7 teaches also.
The asleep saints are already in their spiritual bodies, they don't need to be changed, nor a dead casket body. It's the saints on earth still alive in flesh bodies that will need to be changed to the same kind of bodies they have.
AFTER they are raised, then those alive are raised, and TOGETHER (almost a gathering in that one word) they fly up into the clouds. John 14 gives us the destination: we are going to he places He has prepared for us. NOT for 1260 days - we will be there for a little over 7 years, for the pretrib rapture, PAUL's rapture, will come as the trigger for the Day, and before the 70th week begins. This is what God means by being worthy to escape all these things (coming to earth.)
Did you never read Isaiah 26?
"Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain."
This is a perfect picture of Paul's rapture. It fits John 14. It fits the church as the great crowd no one could number in Rev.
Yeah, I've read that Isaiah Scripture before. It's about the idea of being 'hid' on the day of The LORD...
Zeph 2:2-3
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.
(KJV)
It's not about leaving this earth. It's in comparison to what The LORD did in Egypt, telling the children of Israel go stay in their chambers when He brought the plagues upon Egypt. They didn't leave the earth to be under God's protection. We don't need to leave the earth for that either.
The doctrine you're on only throws out suppositions on Scripture that seems to support their ideas. Scripture that actually does tell us the real events of the end, even in detail, the Pre-Trib doctors instead ignore.
Yeah, like a bouncing rubber ball, a Superball even. (You guys probably don't remember the Superball though).John S said:So according to the Pre-Tribbers, they will be going on a vacation for 7 years and then they will be returning - Okey Dokey.
Not sure I remember that song, I remember Red Rubber Ball though, could that be it?John S said:I do. I'll bet you also remember this song from the 60's - "Like a rubber ball I'll keep bouncing back to you".
Why would anyone in their right mind, after spending 7 years in Heaven, would want to return to Earth - even an Earth without Satan in it? In other words, God is nothing more than an innkeeper who kicks His visitors out of the inn after 7 years.
Who comes up with these ideas?