The sin of unbelief

[KingJ]

It takes effort to doubt. It takes effort to force unbelief. Unbelief is a verb. It is not a state. Unbelief is a rebellion. We do not solve the sin of unbelief with belief. We solve it by stopping our hearts from being hardened due to willful sin.

All my discussions with atheists have helped me understand this clearly. Look at how they constantly remove God from their thoughts. There is something driving them to defy / enter into unbelief on the clear reality of God's existence and goodness. Like an ignorant hatred for God and love of sin. They cannot sleep unless they force unbelief.

 

[StanJ]

You can believe this without the Holy Spirit?

I believe you can come close as Napolean did http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/04/napoleons-proof-for-divinity-of-jesus.html.

But scripture is clear that no one can truthfully say / believe Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Many saved people have believed this and have never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told us that God draws us to Him but that we must confess who he is as our saviour and redeemer. In 1 Cor 12, the context is the Holy Spirit and the gifts He gives, this should also be read in conjunction to chapters 13 & 14.

 

[StanJ]

Why are you saying Amen? The line is in 100% contrast to yours.

You said ''man'' has done the impossible.

He said ''God'' can help man do the impossible.

An ocean of difference and my chief argument ;).

I'm pretty sure forrest knew what he was saying, as did I.
I was addressing your contention that it is impossible and I facetiously said what I did. Paul taught very plainly about salvation in Rom,10:9-11, it is up to us to accept or reject salvation once God brings us to that point of confronting the reality of Jesus Christ.

 

[KingJ]

Many saved people have believed this and have never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told us that God draws us to Him but that we must confess who he is as our saviour and redeemer. In 1 Cor 12, the context is the Holy Spirit and the gifts He gives, this should also be read in conjunction to chapters 13 & 14.

There is no such thing as a saved person who is not baptised in the Holy Spirit according to 1 Cor 12:3. Speaking in tongues is not 'the' evidence. Being able to truthfully believe and call Jesus, Lord, is.

Yes we must confess and yes there is an element of a leap of faith amidst the more important ''hating of sin and repenting' in drawing near to Him. But God does not leave any who take the leap of faith in the air. Christians are fully convinced on who Jesus is, just as Peter was in Matt 16:16-17.

We live by faith but our faith is not self mustered. It is on par with faith in gravity. Absolute certainity, but yet unseen.

 

[KingJ]

I'm pretty sure forrest knew what he was saying, as did I.
I was addressing your contention that it is impossible and I facetiously said what I did. Paul taught very plainly about salvation in Rom,10:9-11, it is up to us to accept or reject salvation once God brings us to that point of confronting the reality of Jesus Christ.

I stand by it. It is impossible. It is possible to believe that you believe with continual brainwashing. Parents do this to us as kids with father Christmas.

Peter spent much time with Jesus, saw miracles that had never been heard of, he knew Jesus was a good man, he even walked on water for a short while. BUT yet even he could not say Jesus is the Messiah / Lord.

 

[KingJ]

it is up to us to accept or reject salvation once God brings us to that point of confronting the reality of Jesus Christ.

The 'point' at which God reveals Jesus to us is when we open the door to Him Rev 3:20. We can believe He is on the other side (as we do in Santa Claus) all life long and yet not believe He is actually there / know Him. Believing He is there is not what opens the door. Hating sin / wanting to repent / Matt 16:24 is what opens the door.

Anyway, I think we mostly agree but are as is becoming common just talking past each other -_-.

Do you agree with Richard's OP and post # 8?

 

[H. Richard]

I stand by it. It is impossible. It is possible to believe that you believe with continual brainwashing. Parents do this to us as kids with father Christmas.

Peter spent much time with Jesus, saw miracles that had never been heard of, he knew Jesus was a good man, he even walked on water for a short while. BUT yet even he could not say Jesus is the Messiah / Lord.

You must have had an interesting child hood with all that brain washing you write about.

So Peter could not say Jesus was the Messiah. Better check out this;

Matt 16:13-16
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ (Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20) 13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said,"Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said,"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

 

[KingJ]

You must have had an interesting child hood with all that brain washing you write about.

So Peter could not say Jesus was the Messiah. Better check out this;

Matt 16:13-16
Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ (Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20) 13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said,"Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said,"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
NKJV

It is shocking to see adults teach and believe tripe that should only fool dumb kids.

Did you not read my post #24? Peter did not believe without God showing Him. IE it was not brainwashing or positive thinking as you are espousing in every post here.

Matt 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

 

[H. Richard]

The 'point' at which God reveals Jesus to us is when we open the door to Him Rev 3:20. We can believe He is on the other side (as we do in Santa Claus) all life long and yet not believe He is actually there / know Him. Believing He is there is not what opens the door. Hating sin / wanting to repent / Matt 16:24 is what opens the door.

****

According to my Bible Jesus is always there for a person to trust in, have faith in, have confidence in,

Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV

Do you believe these scriptures or do you think there is more that we need to add to them?

The truth is that you, nor anyone else, can tell what in in the heart of another person But you can't resist trying to do so.

You called me and those that believe as I do Heretics. You are welcome to do that all you want to because your saying it doesn't make it true. But I see that you are doing just what the Devil made the Jews do.. They called Jesus a Devil, called Stephens worthy of death because he did not conform to the ideas of men. I suppose they must have called Paul a Heretic too. So as you can see I am in good company

All through history men in churches who disagreed with others were called Heretic. Not a big deal now. But I see that any further dialog with you will be pointless I have more worthy things to do than to argue with you..

 

[StanJ]

There is no such thing as a saved person who is not baptised in the Holy Spirit according to 1 Cor 12:3. Speaking in tongues is not 'the' evidence. Being able to truthfully believe and call Jesus, Lord, is.

Yes we must confess and yes there is an element of a leap of faith amidst the more important ''hating of sin and repenting' in drawing near to Him. But God does not leave any who take the leap of faith in the air. Christians are fully convinced on who Jesus is, just as Peter was in Matt 16:16-17.

We live by faith but our faith is not self mustered. It is on par with faith in gravity. Absolute certainity, but yet unseen.

Then you gave never read Acts 19:1-7?

You can describe it anyway that you understand, but ultimately the faith starts simply by believing who the Gospel says Jesus is. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word od Jesus Christ. Rom 10:17

All men have the same starting faith, as is indicated by God's word saying whoever. What WE do and how we act upon that, is our choice. God forces no one.

 

[StanJ]

There is no such thing as a saved person who is not baptised in the Holy Spirit according to 1 Cor 12:3. Speaking in tongues is not 'the' evidence. Being able to truthfully believe and call Jesus, Lord, is.

Yes we must confess and yes there is an element of a leap of faith amidst the more important ''hating of sin and repenting' in drawing near to Him. But God does not leave any who take the leap of faith in the air. Christians are fully convinced on who Jesus is, just as Peter was in Matt 16:16-17.

We live by faith but our faith is not self mustered. It is on par with faith in gravity. Absolute certainity, but yet unseen.

Try reading Acts 19:1-7.

All men have the same starting faith as John 3:18 tells us.

Rom 10:17 tells us how our faith starts and grows. Everyone starts from the same point.

 

[StanJ]

I stand by it. It is impossible. It is possible to believe that you believe with continual brainwashing. Parents do this to us as kids with father Christmas.

Peter spent much time with Jesus, saw miracles that had never been heard of, he knew Jesus was a good man, he even walked on water for a short while. BUT yet even he could not say Jesus is the Messiah / Lord.

Well that does definitely indicates a certain mindset.

Actually, Peter's confession andcacceptabce about Jesus being the Messiah, was what Jesus has built HIS church on.

 

[lforrest]

I'm still not convinced that there is actually a disagreement here, just poor communication.

I believe there are different "gospels" and different Jesus' associated with each one. Belief in the wrong gospel and wrong Jesus leads people astray. Those who do this have not received the Holy Spirit and are not yet saved.

Just look at the demented founders of these other gospels, what purpose would their deceptions serve if their lies didn't result in the destruction of many?

 

[StanJ]

I'm still not convinced that there is actually a disagreement here, just poor communication.

I believe there are different "gospels" and different Jesus' associated with each one. Belief in the wrong gospel and wrong Jesus leads people astray. Those who do this have not received the Holy Spirit and are not yet saved.

Just look at the demented founders of these other gospels, what purpose would their deceptions serve if their lies didn't result in the destruction of many?

There are indeed different Jesus', which Paul did warn about, but the gospels are one and the same, so I'm not quite getting what you're saying here?

Who are these demented founders you are referring to?

 

[KingJ]

1. Try reading Acts 19:1-7.

2. All men have the same starting faith as John 3:18 tells us.

3. Rom 10:17 tells us how our faith starts and grows. Everyone starts from the same point.

1. Johns baptism was an absolute belief in repentance with a belief in a coming Messiah. Kind of on par with what everyone OT was taught with the difference that John was dunking them in water. A Jew knew he was part of a chosen race for the Messiah. Every Jew had faith in the coming Messiah. IE they knew their repentance was not in vein albeit they found themselves in AB and not heaven. Psalm 51:17 has always been there for the Jews.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit brings absolute confidence in Jesus being Lord. John's baptism could not give this. A sign that followed was speaking in tongues. But I reiterate, it is not ''the'' sign. 1 Cor 12:3 cannot be clearer. What part of it is confusing?

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

2. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Well we have to read this with 1 Cor 12:3 and James 2:19 for context. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. Note the sarcasm ;).

This verse is basically saying the same as what Jesus said in John 14:6. We only believe in Jesus after the Holy Spirit reveals Him to us. This takes place after we draw near to God James 4:8. He judges our hearts and minds Jer 17:10 and then comes in Rev 3:20 / 1 Cor 12:3.

Our positive mental state / ability to believe the impossible is possible / ability to convince ourselves that Jesus is more then a man....carries absolutely NO meaning. This is a terrible error and twisting of scripture. It is a deception of the devil to introduce positive thinking into Christianity.

There is a faith message to the bible, but it is not our faith. Our self mustered faith is about as significant to this discussion as mud on my shoe is.

3. The faith Paul is talking about here is not faith that Jesus is Lord. It is trust. We grow in trust and confidence in Jesus as we read and hear His word. IE our faith IN Jesus grows. NOT in Jesus being Lord. NOT in our ability to levitate. NOT in our ability to raise the dead. Not in God being able to do something / anything magical.

Growing in trusting God is significant. Though we may grasp that Jesus is Lord and have a certain amount of faith in His love for us from the cross. A wise creation will always be nervous / afraid of a Creator that has the power to be evil or obliterate them in an instant. So verses like Davids Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good and Pauls Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ....are very important to us growing in faith in Christ.

Faith can be in four things per scripture and common sense. We have to isolate which one it is when we teach it. To avoid heresy.

1. Faith in God existing. According to Paul in Rom 1:20, every human should have this.
2. Faith in God being omnipotent. It should go without saying that our God be pretty powerful, hence ''faith of tiny little mustard seed is needed to move a mountain''.
3. Faith in God being good. We grow in this.
4. Faith in Jesus being Lord. We have this. Without this faith we cannot please God.

 

[KingJ]

Well that does definitely indicates a certain mindset.

Actually, Peter's confession andcacceptabce about Jesus being the Messiah, was what Jesus has built HIS church on.

Yes agreed. Peter saw miracles, walked on water and knew Jesus was greater then any other man in history...but yet had NO faith in Jesus being Lord until it was revealed to him.

 

[KingJ]

****

According to my Bible Jesus is always there for a person to trust in, have faith in, have confidence in,

Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV

Do you believe these scriptures or do you think there is more that we need to add to them?

The truth is that you, nor anyone else, can tell what in in the heart of another person But you can't resist trying to do so.

You called me and those that believe as I do Heretics. You are welcome to do that all you want to because your saying it doesn't make it true. But I see that you are doing just what the Devil made the Jews do.. They called Jesus a Devil, called Stephens worthy of death because he did not conform to the ideas of men. I suppose they must have called Paul a Heretic too. So as you can see I am in good company

All through history men in churches who disagreed with others were called Heretic. Not a big deal now. But I see that any further dialog with you will be pointless I have more worthy things to do than to argue with you..

By not including James 2:19 (devils believe, believing is not a big deal), 1 Cor 12:3 (you can only believe Jesus is Lord if you have the Holy Spirit) and Jer 17:10 (Jesus only comes in after your heart and mind is judged), Rom 12:9 (what God wants is not the ability to believe the impossible is possible / real, rather for us to hate what is evil and cling to what is good) you are teaching nothing more then a half truth. IE Heretical teaching. It sounds right but is terribly terribly wrong.

John 3:16 (whosever believe in Him will be saved) somes up what you believe, but we cannot teach it in isolation to the rest of scripture. Your ability to believe that you believe does not trump you hating what is evil and clinging to what is good / repenting. Our part (James 4:8) is to repent sincerely. God does the rest.

You are adding to scripture, defying common sense and making a mockery of the cross. Jesus died for all and those that love Him, find Him. Not those who can believe they believe without doubt.

God's people doubt and waver because they are entertaining sinful thoughts. They are becoming double minded. Sin upsets the balance in our head. Not our self mustered positive mental state /ability to believe we believe without doubting. That has more in common with Hinduism and brainwashing children to believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

 

[H. Richard]

By not including James 2:19 (devils believe, believing is not a big deal), 1 Cor 12:3 (you can only believe Jesus is Lord if you have the Holy Spirit) and Jer 17:10 (Jesus only comes in after your heart and mind is judged), Rom 12:9 (what God wants is not the ability to believe the impossible is possible / real, rather for us to hate what is evil and cling to what is good) you are teaching nothing more then a half truth. IE Heretical teaching. It sounds right but is terribly terribly wrong.

John 3:16 (whosever believe in Him will be saved) somes up what you believe, but we cannot teach it in isolation to the rest of scripture. Your ability to believe that you believe does not trump you hating what is evil and clinging to what is good / repenting. Our part (James 4:8) is to repent sincerely. God does the rest.

You are adding to scripture, defying common sense and making a mockery of the cross. Jesus died for all and those that love Him, find Him. Not those who can believe they believe without doubt.

God's people doubt and waver because they are entertaining sinful thoughts. They are becoming double minded. Sin upsets the balance in our head. Not our self mustered positive mental state /ability to believe we believe without doubting. That has more in common with Hinduism and brainwashing children to believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Rom 14:1-6 The Law of Liberty
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
NKJV

I will let the scriptures tell you the truth and let them be the judge between us.

 

[KingJ]

Rom 14:1-6 The Law of Liberty
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
NKJV

I will let the scriptures tell you the truth and let them be the judge between us.

Richard I don't see these verses applicable to our disagreement. Our difference in belief here is very material. The verses above have to do with immaterial disagreements.

I am guessing you also believe that your faith can effect your prosperity and heal the sick? Your prayer carries more weight with God then another Christian who has less faith. You can raise the dead and cast out demons? Because you have 'faith'. You believe and do not doubt...unlike those poor and ill sods who profess to be Christians. Am I right?

I recently had a discussion with a Christian who said he can't listen to poor paupers. They clearly don't have faith.

IE Unless I am completely miss understanding you, our disagreement on Christianity is as material as it gets.

 

[StanJ]

1 Cor 12:3 cannot be clearer. What part of it is confusing?

It would be your job to clarify it and make the connection. What is confusing is your lack of addressing Acts 19 in the context it is rendered. Paul makes no comment about them actually being saved, he simply asks if they received the Holy Spirit when they did get saved. Therefore Paul confirms that receiving the Holy Spirit and salvation are two separate events.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
2. John 3:18 [font=Helvetica Neue']Whoever believes in him is not condemned,[/font][font=Helvetica Neue'] but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son[/size][/font][font=Helvetica Neue'].[/size][/font]
Well we have to read this with 1 Cor 12:3 and James 2:19 for context. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. Note the sarcasm ;).
This verse is basically saying the same as what Jesus said in John 14:6. We only believe in Jesus after the Holy Spirit reveals Him to us. This takes place after we draw near to God James 4:8. He judges our hearts and minds Jer 17:10 and then comes in Rev 3:20 / 1 Cor 12:3.

As the Bible never contradicts itself I see no reason for you to say it needs to be read with something Paul wrote in order to be properly understood. Do you believe John cannot be properly understood without reading Pauline letters? The context is in the individual scriptures. They don't provide context for other scriptures, unless of course they are dealing with the same thing which in this case they are not.
Whoever means whoever. John does not indicate that only those who God is giving salvic faith to, are saved. Trying to make this connection is simply not exegetical. John 3:18 is definitely not saying the same as John 14:6 except maybe only in your mind. Do you not believe the apostles were saved before they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost? Do you also not believe that the believers Peter spoke to in Acts 10, were not saved before they received the in filling of the Holy Spirit?

Our positive mental state / ability to believe the impossible is possible / ability to convince ourselves that Jesus is more then a man....carries absolutely NO meaning. This is a terrible error and twisting of scripture. It is a deception of the devil to introduce positive thinking into Christianity.
There is a faith message to the bible, but it is not our faith. Our self mustered faith is about as significant to this discussion as mud on my shoe is.

So you're saying that Jesus was wrong when he told the woman in Luke 7:50 that her faith had saved her?

3. The faith Paul is talking about here is not faith that Jesus is Lord. It is trust. We grow in trust and confidence in Jesus as we read and hear His word. IE our faith IN Jesus grows. NOT in Jesus being Lord. NOT in our ability to levitate. NOT in our ability to raise the dead. Not in God being able to do something / anything magical.
Growing in trusting God is significant. Though we may grasp that Jesus is Lord and have a certain amount of faith in His love for us from the cross. A wise creation will always be nervous / afraid of a Creator that has the power to be evil or obliterate them in an instant. So verses like Davids Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good and Pauls Eph 3:18 may have power, together with all the Lord's holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ....are very important to us growing in faith in Christ.
Faith can be in four things per scripture and common sense. We have to isolate which one it is when we teach it. To avoid heresy.
1. Faith in God existing. According to Paul in Rom 1:20, every human should have this.
2. Faith in God being omnipotent. It should go without saying that our God be pretty powerful, hence ''faith of tiny little mustard seed is needed to move a mountain''.
3. Faith in God being good. We grow in this.
4. Faith in Jesus being Lord. We have this. Without this faith we cannot please God.

You need to read all of Romans 10 and not just pick one particular verse and eisegete about it. Focus on verses 9 to 11.