The sin of unbelief

[ATP]

I don't see it as a parable, but as prohecy. A parable in my understanding is a story (an actual event or not) to illustrate a point. I think this is literally going to happen.

No matter. Your point is pretty good. When Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun, and that the OT is a shadow. .. I can understand your point.

Parables could also be pictures and symbolism. It doesn't necessarily have to be a story..

allegory / noun
1. a poem, play, picture, etc, in which the apparent meaning of the characters and events is used to symbolize a deeper moral or spiritual meaning
2. the technique or genre that this represents
3. use of such symbolism to illustrate truth or a moral
4. anything used as a symbol or emblem

Matt 7:21-23 NIV “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[FHII]

Parables could also be pictures and symbolism. It doesn't necessarily have to be a story..

allegory / noun
1. a poem, play, picture, etc, in which the apparent meaning of the characters and events is used to symbolize a deeper moral or spiritual meaning
2. the technique or genre that this represents
3. use of such symbolism to illustrate truth or a moral
4. anything used as a symbol or emblem

Matt 7:21-23 NIV “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Well, thats my point. I don't think its symbolic. I think its really going to happen.

I can see symbolism in it, but there is going to be a time when folks stand before God, tell Him of their works and try to justify themselves. I can see where we must do that every mortal day, and I believe its inportant to rely on Jesus every mortal day.

Judgment begins at the house of God and we must hear his voice today and not hearden our hearts.

But for everyone else who doesn't take heed..... they are going to say, "but Lord. ..."

 

[ATP]

Well, thats my point. I don't think its symbolic. I think its really going to happen.

Symbolism can describe literal events too. Thus the book of Revelation.

 

[FHII]

Symbolism can describe literal events too. Thus the book of Revelation.

Well thats a big example! Do you really think a beast (maybe like godzilla) is going to come out of the ocean?

Yet I state what happens in chapter 20 will be literal!

I see a lot of symbolism in a man-child being born out of flesh which cannot inherit the kingdom of God, yet I believe Jesus actually existed! His life is symbiotic of us beingvborn again, but he still literally raised from the dead.

I also believe isaiah preached naked. Tallywhacker fully exposed! Yet a symbol of something else.

 

[ATP]

Well thats a big example! Do you really think a beast (maybe like godzilla) is going to come out of the ocean?

Yet I state what happens in chapter 20 will be literal!

I see a lot of symbolism in a man-child being born out of flesh which cannot inherit the kingdom of God, yet I believe Jesus actually existed! His life is symbiotic of us beingvborn again, but he still literally raised from the dead.

I also believe isaiah preached naked. Tallywhacker fully exposed! Yet a symbol of something else.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ, these people actually HAD works! They had wonderful works and they did them in the name of Jesus (that's what they will say at the white throne judgment).

Its not about doing the works, its about doing the will of the Father.

Matt 7:22 is talking about those not doing living works. Many do cast our demons and heal the sick in His name / per His will and as living works. I am not blanketing all FHI. Just making a point that having faith for a miracle is hardly an achievement. Look at how so many churches push such as evidence of being a better Christian. Many just do not grasp the borderline sarcasm from Jesus when He says ''faith of a mustard seed''.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ, these people actually HAD works! They had wonderful works and they did them in the name of Jesus (that's what they will say at the white throne judgment).

Its not about doing the works, its about doing the will of the Father.

Those in Matt 7:22 are doing the will of God. God says we must do that. You also arguing that they are doing works. Yes they are spending time away from their family. But what is true of any carnal person is that time spent puffing up their ego > time spent doing anything else. A greater work from a carnal person would ironically be to go home and spend the time with their family, instead of harrassing demons.

 

[KingJ]

It is impossible for me to see how you can come up with your conclusion. It obviously can't be seen in what I write

As long as you write lines like this:

The sin that kept the Jewish people out of the promised land was the sin of unbelief; God told them to go into the land and that He would drive the people there out with Hornets. But did they believe God? No and therefore God made them wonder in the dessert for 40 years.

...us bashing heads is inevitable ;). Do you really believe the sin of unbelief is simply doubting / not believing God?

 

[mjrhealth]

This might help.''
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[KingJ]

This might help.''
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Excellent scriputures, thanks for sharing.

 

[H. Richard]

As long as you write lines like this:


...us bashing heads is inevitable ;). Do you really believe the sin of unbelief is simply doubting / not believing God?

Yes I do. Faith in what God has done for us is all God asks. It gives all the glory to His Son, Jesus. I will say it again, the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of refusing to believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for ALL the sins of mankind. Under grace everyone has a chance to believe or not to believe.

1 Cor 1:27-31
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption —
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
NKJV

 

[KingJ]

Yes I do. Faith in what God has done for us is all God asks. It gives all the glory to His Son, Jesus. I will say it again, the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of refusing to believe Jesus' shed blood has paid for ALL the sins of mankind. Under grace everyone has a chance to believe or not to believe.

What if someone believes Jesus died for them but has no intention of repenting? They know the gospel, believe it but live daily in unrepentant sin. Are they en route to heaven?

You are taking the first part of John 3:16 literally (if you believe) but are not grasping the second part properly (believe that Jesus is Lord). As I have been saying from post 1. We can only believe Jesus is Lord via the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. This only after hearts and minds are judged Jer 17:10. He does not come into an unwilling heart Rev 3:20. Psalm 51:17 is evidence of the right heart.

 

[KingJ]

1 Cor 1:27-31
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption —
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
NKJV

The point being made here is that we have nothing to do with salvation. It is a free gift. A plane that leaves the airport. But what you are omitting is that we have everything to do with getting to the airport.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that love Jesus. Not to those that believe it exists. I know many that believe in Jesus but entertain athiesm as they like the rebellion. That is what unbelief is. You forcefully remove God from your thoughts. Because you want the rebellion / sin.

 

[ATP]

The point being made here is that we have nothing to do with salvation. It is a free gift. A plane that leaves the airport. But what you are omitting is that we have everything to do with getting to the airport.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that love Jesus. Not to those that believe it exists. I know many that believe in Jesus but entertain athiesm as they like the rebellion. That is what unbelief is. You forcefully remove God from your thoughts. Because you want the rebellion / sin.

Believers persevere because of progressive sanctification. Unbelief describes those who never had saving faith KingJ.

 

[ATP]

So many people are not gonna make it because they prefer the law over salvation.

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

[KingJ]

Believers persevere because of progressive sanctification. Unbelief describes those who never had saving faith KingJ.

I agree. But will you agree that it is possible to brainwash yourself into thinking you are saved?

Saving faith is a gift Eph 2:8. Faith in God however is a given for all with a working brain Rom 1:20. Accompanied with a belief in God is a belief in a judgment day. This is why scripture always has a love of sin close to such an unbelief. Doubting Thomas did not love sin. He had faith in God but not 'yet' in Jesus. It was an inevitability for him though as just as with Peter, God / Jesus would help this type of unbelief....as they are after His heart. Unbelief in God when belief in God is the default belief is the result of a love for sin. We don't get fat without eating junk food. Richard is saying we must not be fat, I am saying we must not eat junk food :). We don't just get fat from our thoughts. When I say we, I am referring to us before we have saving faith.

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

Matt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah."

2 Thess 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[mjrhealth]

I agree. But will you agree that it is possible to brainwash yourself into thinking you are saved?

If it wasnt possible we wouldnt have so many religions, denominations, Just one God, one Lord, one Holy Spirit.

 

[StanJ]

Saving faith is a gift Eph 2:8. Faith in God however is a given for all with a working brain Rom 1:20.

This is RT vernacular. The Bible does not use the words 'saving faith', it just uses the word 'faith' that brings about salvation. Rom 10:9-11

 

[ATP]

I agree. But will you agree that it is possible to brainwash yourself into thinking you are saved?

Absolutely. It's not so much as brainwashing as it is deception from the devil. If you are born again and still believe you can lose your salvation, that is also deception. The devil comes at the saints through all sorts of angles. Even using nonbelievers that think they're saved preaching that grace isn't enough. If the devil can erase that day you gave your life to Christ, well, that is really bad. I would consider that a full blown attack.

Saving faith is a gift Eph 2:8.

So if we can lose that gift by doing more than what Jesus died for, how is that still a gift?

Faith in God however is a given for all with a working brain Rom 1:20.

Rom 1:18-32 is about nonbelievers who are still under God's wrath. Believers are no longer appointed to wrath...

Job 21:30 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Dan 12:1-2 NIV, Matt 3:12 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Eph 2:3 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9 NIV

Accompanied with a belief in God is a belief in a judgment day.

Right, and nothing can separate believers from God on judgment day...

Matt 13:40-42 NIV “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 5:29 ESV and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

John 6:35-40 NIV Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 12:48 NIV There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Rom 2:5 NIV But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

1 Cor 5:5 NIV hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 2:9 NIV if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

2 Peter 3:7 NIV By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

1 John 4:17 NIV This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

This is why scripture always has a love of sin close to such an unbelief.

Well, there's a difference in how a believer and a nonbeliever reacts to sin. A believer no longer continues to sin, and actually hates sin...

Rom 6:14 NIV For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
1 John 3:6 NIV No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
1 John 5:18 NIV We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

The difference between a sinning unbeliever and a sinning believer is that one loves his sin while the other hates it. The believer who stumbles in his walk with the Lord regrets it, confesses it, wishes to never do it again and seeks to appropriate God’s power and grace to avoid it. He doesn’t consider how much he can sin and still be considered a Christian. Rather, he considers how he can avoid even the appearance of sin in the future..http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-Christian.html

Doubting Thomas did not love sin. He had faith in God but not 'yet' in Jesus. It was an inevitability for him though as just as with Peter, God / Jesus would help this type of unbelief....

And doubting Thomas doubted before Pentecost KingJ. Jesus had not yet ascended to His Father yet. The Holy spirit had not yet descended on to the disciples yet. Doubting Thomas doubted before the seal of God came on to the scene Eph 1:13-14 NIV.

 

[H. Richard]

Believers persevere because of progressive sanctification. Unbelief describes those who never had saving faith KingJ.

I have heard this argument before. Some say a person has to reach out and take it. TAKE WHAT!!!. Can a person hold faith in a box?

I do not believe in "progressive salvation, progressive justification, progressive righteousness etc". Every one of theses things are accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person places their faith in the works of Jesus on the cross..

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV


True faith is taking God at His word. Jesus sent Paul to the whole world with a gospel of grace. Under grace God (Jesus) has accomplished everything necessary for a person's salvation. --- All that is required today is for a person to believe it. --- No one can see faith, trust, belief, confidence; but God can and does.