The sin that dwells in us....

[Nancy]

I think the way we stop those thoughts from slipping in is the realize that God is within us to bring control into our lives, and to rely on Him to do that. And in that we find we have control.

I'm sure my brain is about as messed up as they come, and when my thoughts start to slip, as quickly as I recognize that is happening, I return my focus back to God, His presence with me, His love for me, His power within me. And all is well.

What used to obstruct me inside was the feeling of guilt knowing that my life is actually like.

This idea that we will be completely free from all occurance of sin in this life, while in these bodies, I do not find in Scripture. I've not yet come across anyone who claims to be sinless, and that I find actually is. @CharismaticLady teaches sinlessness, but then doesn't include some sins in her definition of sin. Others imply sinlessness, while showing sinfulness.

I don't know that we really understand God's real standard of faith working through love, and how radically different this whole Christian life is than a scorecard for rulekeeping.

Much love!

Agreed Marks,
"when my thoughts start to slip, as quickly as I recognize that is happening, I return my focus back to God" <--- and this is exactly what I do do....I don't mean doo-doo, mind you

 

[marks]

How can I not think that is what you are doing when you quote Romans 8:20 but don't see the conclusion Romans 8:2? You are still standing on Romans 8:20 and won't budge from that spot! Does it say what you want to hear? And how can I not be personal when I care about you?

And exactly what "word" are you dissecting? I forget. I hope it is not the business of present tense making Paul over 1300 years old. It just a Hebrew writing style for teaching. The apostles were Jewish, not English. You can't use are rules of writing on them, but study their writing styles and look through that lens.

Your view is that this part following is describing the nation of Israel at the time of the giving of the Law, this is correct?

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Which is to say, Israel did not know sin until the Law was given. But when the Law was given, brought death with it, because the people now were accountable.

In my view, Paul writes this about himself.

He does in fact say this is about himself, so I don't know why we wouldn't accept that as true.

I think our difference in understanding is in these words, "when the commandment came". When the commandment came . . . to whom?

You see this as, when the commandment came to Israel, that is, at Sinai, unless I'm mistaken. I see this as, when the commandment came to Paul, that is, when he understood what God commanded, i.e. an age of accountability.

And as he goes on speaking in terms of himself, again, I have no reason to think that not exactly what he's talking about, himself in his lifetime, rather his nation in ancient times.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

I think we see that we do not desire to sin anymore and that it disturbs us when we do and we think we are getting better, so we work really hard to not sin. But at some point, surely we have to see that it is in us and that it doesnt leave.

The desire to not sin is not freedom from sin.

Yeah, it is not going to leave as long as we are in these flesh suits. We, as Christians have many fronts to fight against..

 

[CharismaticLady]

So then any sin costs you your eternal life?

It really depends on if God grants you repentance. As far as Galatians 5:19-21 I have no desire to commit any of them, and I can't see heaven being glorious with those kinds of people there. Would you really commit any of those?

 

[marks]

.

@marks I've been on this computer since I got up, and need to have my first cup of tea of the day. Please focus on Romans 8 and lets talk again. BFN

As you've said . . . remove the chapter breaks . . .

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

"Therefore" is always a word to watch.

Therefore there is now no condemnation . . . . there is no condemnation no because . . . because why? Because Jesus has delivered me from the body of this death, so that with the mind, I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Therefore shows causal effect. Because of this, then that. Because it is no longer I that sin. Because I with the mind serve the law of God.

"I serve the Law of God" Paul states, the flesh, just as he had just explained in which nothing good lives, It is no long I that sin, but sin that lives in me.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

He does in fact say this is about himself, so I don't know why we wouldn't accept that as true.

Even though Paul was not 1300 years give or take, I'll play along if you insist. Let's see your verse against key verses and the conclusion.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

IOW He took sin out of us by taking us out of the carnal nature.

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

 

[marks]

It really depends on if God grants you repentance. As far as Galatians 5:19-21 I have no desire to commit any of them, and I can't see heaven being glorious with those kinds of people there. Would you really commit any of those?

There's a similar list in 1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

God tells them some of them were these, but they are washed, sanctified, and justified.

Why would He then go on to instruct them,

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

They were washed. They were sanctified. They were justified. Does this not mean that they would be impervious to all these sins?

The answer to all these in in a new creation.

A new creation, we are not these. New creations will fill heaven, not children of Adam.

Colossians 3
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Another one of those 'therefore's. Because you are dead, and you life is hid with Christ in God, because when Christ appears in glory you too will appear with Him, because of these, put to death your members which are upon the earth.

It's just like the forgiveness question. Under the covenant of law, people must forgive others so that they can be forgiven by God. In the new covenant, we forgive others because we've been forgiven by God.

Here, we are to put to death our members upon the earth because we are dead in Christ, risen with Christ, hid with Him, sure to appear with Him. Not that we are to put to death our member so that we will appear with Him. That's reversed from the way the passage is written.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Because Jesus has delivered me from the body of this death, so that with the mind, I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

NO! You went back to Romans 7. We are NOT in the flesh, so how can you say you are and serve the law of sin? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.

 

[marks]

NO! You went back to Romans 7. We are NOT in the flesh, so how can you say you are and serve the law of sin? The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed me from the law of sin and death.

If we don't get Romans 7 right, how will we get Romans 8 right?

I did NOT say I serve the Law of Sin.

 

[CharismaticLady]

They were washed. They were sanctified. They were justified. Does this not mean that they would be impervious to all these sins?

Yes. The word "were" is past tense. The Holy Spirit is powerful and when Christ takes away a sin, He takes away the desire for that sin, otherwise what's the point. That is why Scripture says also that in Him there is no sin. That is reality.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If we don't get Romans 7 right, how will we get Romans 8 right?

I did NOT say I serve the Law of Sin.

You are saying a Christian serves the law of sin, right? Aren't you saying that Paul was describing himself in Romans 7 as a Christian and his desire is to serve the law of God, but his flesh serves the law of sin? I don't agree with that. But isn't that what you are saying? (the last verse of chapter 7)

Romans 7 is coming to the conclusion - chapter 8, but the teaching on the law and sin started in chapter one.

 

[marks]

You are saying a Christian serves the law of sin, right?

I am saying a Christian is someone who is a new creation, born from God Himself, that is holy and righteous, and in fellowship with God. Take away this body, so what, that new creation lives on, in fellowship with God.

In this world, the new creation, the son or daughter of God, even as Jesus lived in a body of flesh, so we live in bodies of flesh. But while Jesus' body was not corrupted by sin, our bodies are corrupted by sin, nothing good lives in our flesh, that's where sin lives.

That as Paul says "with the mind I myself serve the Law of God", this is the new creation, righteous and holy, and when he says "with the body, the law of sin", this is the corrupt flesh, which is not improved are repaired, but in the resurrection is transformed to be incorruptible.

What we sometimes call the process of sanctification is to be discipled by God in living the new creation, and not allowing the flesh any outlet.

Some don't really try at all. Some try by examining behaviors and trying to stop wrong ones.

I think what we are to do is to let Christ's peace rule in our hearts, examining our thoughts, those that don't conform to God's holiness and righteousness and peace, we know these are not of the new creation, and we repudiated them in Christ, refusing to continue in that line of thought, instead refocusing back on Jesus, what He has done, and His power in us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. The word "were" is past tense. The Holy Spirit is powerful and when Christ takes away a sin, He takes away the desire for that sin, otherwise what's the point. That is why Scripture says also that in Him there is no sin. That is reality.

But to these very same ones God tells them to flee from fornication. This demonstrates the conflict Galatians 5 teaches between flesh and spirit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I am saying a Christian is someone who is a new creation, born from God Himself, that is holy and righteous, and in fellowship with God. Take away this body, so what, that new creation lives on, in fellowship with God.

In this world, the new creation, the son or daughter of God, even as Jesus lived in a body of flesh, so we live in bodies of flesh. But while Jesus' body was not corrupted by sin, our bodies are corrupted by sin, nothing good lives in our flesh, that's where sin lives.

That as Paul says "with the mind I myself serve the Law of God", this is the new creation, righteous and holy, and when he says "with the body, the law of sin", this is the corrupt flesh, which is not improved are repaired, but in the resurrection is transformed to be incorruptible.

What we sometimes call the process of sanctification is to be discipled by God in living the new creation, and not allowing the flesh any outlet.

Some don't really try at all. Some try by examining behaviors and trying to stop wrong ones.

I think what we are to do is to let Christ's peace rule in our hearts, examining our thoughts, those that don't conform to God's holiness and righteousness and peace, we know these are not of the new creation, and we repudiated them in Christ, refusing to continue in that line of thought, instead refocusing back on Jesus, what He has done, and His power in us.

Much love!

The point in teaching Romans 7 and 8 is to correctly apply Scripture to before Christ and after Christ. If we can't correctly divide the Word, that is when false doctrines of applying Romans 7 to a Christian happens, and there are some who relate only to the weakness before the Spirit, and actually believe they are saved due to 'imputed' righteousness, which was only imputed to Abraham because of his obedience. Something that goes over their heads.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, it is not going to leave as long as we are in these flesh suits. We, as Christians have many fronts to fight against..

My point was that you can keep striving but you cannot do it. When that is finally discovered, whether in 5 years, 10, or 50, when we say, enough! and we give up on the thought that we can have a victorious walk by anything we can do or add, that's when we cry to Him again and we can begin to advance.

 

[Not me]

My point was that you can keep striving but you cannot do it. When that is finally discovered, whether in 5 years, 10, or 50, when we say, enough! and we give up on the thought that we can have a victorious walk by anything we can do or add, that's when we cry to Him again and we can begin to advance.

Yes..... when we finally come to the end of ourselves, we learn that in having no hope in ourselves, our hope and faith is in God alone to do in us what we cannot do for ourselves. Than by experience we learn what is meant in scripture by “through faith in the working of God”.

Than “the just shall live by faith” becomes life in and to us.

Then as you said “we begin to advance”

Be blessed as He continues to learn you Him, Not me

 

[marks]

which was only imputed to Abraham because of his obedience.

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Believing God was counted for righteousness, not works. None of our works will render us righteous. Only if we are made righteous by God. Not only imputation, but impartation also. Like saying we are both adopted by God and born of God. We are His children both by adoption and by birth. And we are righteous by justification, and by a new creation.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Believing God was counted for righteousness, not works. None of our works will render us righteous. Only if we are made righteous by God. Not only imputation, but impartation also. Like saying we are both adopted by God and born of God. We are His children both by adoption and by birth. And we are righteous by justification, and by a new creation.

Much love!

I can agree with that. It is just applying Romans 7:14-23 to Christians I cannot abide.

 

[marks]

I can agree with that. It is just applying Romans 7:14-23 to Christians I cannot abide.

I understand. But between you and me I'm not concerned over this.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I understand. But between you and me I'm not concerned over this.

I am. It is the basis for the most dangerous false doctrine in Christianity.

If Jesus believes it to be 'dead,' who do you think authored it? John 10:10