The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[teamventure]

Where does it say that God breathed "a living soul" into Adam. "The Breath of life" is not a living soul, but if it is, then the animals have it also. Genesis 2:7, 6:17, 7:15,22. Is that what you want to say?

It says in the verse you posted that man became a living soul which it does not say about animals. Hence mankind being a soul but not animals.

 

[Earburner]

It says in the verse you posted that man became a living soul which it does not say about animals. Hence mankind being a soul but not animals.

BTW, the Hebrew word for soul in Genesis is "nephesh", meaning "animal life".
Genesis 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
[23] And every living substance [H3351 thing] was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

 

[face2face]

BTW, the Hebrew word for soul in Genesis is "nephesh", meaning "animal life".
Genesis 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
[23] And every living substance [H3351 thing] was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Same as Ecclesiastes 3:19-22

Man has no preeminence over the animals in terms of our fate - death = total nothingness - as one dies so does the other. Same breath - same flesh...only one thing separates us - our ability morally reason God's Word.

 

[teamventure]

BTW, the Hebrew word for soul in Genesis is "nephesh", meaning "animal life".
Genesis 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
[23] And every living substance [H3351 thing] was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Nice facts, but somehow you take that to mean that hell isn't eternal even though scripture as plainly stated says it is.
"They will have no rest day or night"
"The smoke of their torment rises up forever."

 

[Earburner]

Nice facts, but somehow you take that to mean that hell isn't eternal even though scripture as plainly stated says it is.
"They will have no rest day or night"
"The smoke of their torment rise s up forever."

If according to your thinking, suffering in a "religious" concept of Hell is for eternity, then one should know that there is no "day or night" there.

As for their torment, it's the "smoke OF" their torment from burning by God's everlasting fire, that rises up forever. Did you forget that "our God is a consuming fire"?

Smoke can and does exist in the infinity of space, in the changed form of Carbon atoms. Iows, the end of the unsaved is permanent and unconscious death, and is forever and ever, as if they "never were born".

 

[Earburner]

Same as Ecclesiastes 3:19-22

Man has no preeminence over the animals in terms of our fate - death = total nothingness - as one dies so does the other. Same breath - same flesh...only one thing separates us - our ability morally reason God's Word.

Yes, it's called "human intelligence" of "the natural man/mind", aka our fleshly mind**, of which by the way, IS NOT "the mind of Christ", which is deposited within us when we are Born again of God's Holy Spirit.
** Note: "the wisdom of men". 1 Corinthians 2:5.

 

[Ziggy]

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.


Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

When Abraham was just outside Sodom, 3 messengers came to him and explained that they were going to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if the cry of them was legitimate.

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Gen 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

Gen 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

consumed in the iniquity.. Sin will consume them.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Gen 19:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I see those who worship the beast and his mark are raising their fists to God blaming him for their own sins.
This torment is them being consumed by their iniquities.

Fire and brimstone...

Isa 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

I wonder if these are the same 3 that went to Sodom and Gomorrah.. hmm

thinking..
hugs

 

[PinSeeker]

...the first judgment of death has been looming over us for many millennia.
Well, since the Fall. Sure. Condemnation of sin, and the administering of consequences for it. This is God's judgment.

There never was any other choice, until the second judgment of the Gift of eternal life was made available to us, through the obedience of Jesus.

This was promised when Adam and Eve fell, Earburner. Genesis 3:15. Surely you know that. It was not a judgment, but a promise of redemption and blessing.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[teamventure]

If according to your thinking, suffering in a "religious" concept of Hell is for eternity, then one should know that there is no "day or night" there.

As for their torment, it's the "smoke OF" their torment from burning by God's everlasting fire, that rises up forever. Did you forget that "our God is a consuming fire"?

Smoke can and does exist in the infinity of space, in the changed form of Carbon atoms. Iows, the end of the unsaved is permanent and unconscious death, and is forever and ever, as if they "never were born".

I simply posted a couple scriptures without giving my own exegesis on them. Therefore, you are only arguing with scripture itself and not my own enterpretation.
And about smoke in space, You are leaning on mans wisdom instead of having faith in God's word as plainly stated.

 

[Earburner]

This was promised when Adam and Eve fell, Earburner. Genesis 3:15. Surely you know that. It was not a judgment, but a promise of redemption and blessing.

Grace and peace to you.

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
> and that judgment was fulfilled in the day of Jesus' first appearing, and not ever anytime earlier.

Edit: BTW, to take or administer an action, is to make a judgment. To make a judgment, is to take or administer an action.
For God to overcome and/or administer an alternative to His judgment of "thou shall surely die", He enacted His plan for the new reality of "[Ye] shall never die", through the death and resurrection of His Son, aka the Tree of Life.

 

[Earburner]

I simply posted a couple scriptures without giving my own exegesis on them. Therefore, you are only arguing with scripture itself and not my own enterpretation.
And about smoke in space, You are leaning on mans wisdom instead of having faith in God's word as plainly stated.

Smoke in space is a proven reality, being that of uncondensed atoms of Carbon.

Knowledge didn't increase in the days of Moses, so I am sure he was clueless about the gaseous elements of God's creation.
Though "Animal Husbandry" was most certainly a study then, "Chemistry 101" was definitely not.
So, for Moses, the words "Breath of Life" was acceptable for describing the Oxygenated air that man and all animals breathe.
Everyone but the "religious" thinker does understand it in the simplest of terms.
That is my explanation of it, without all the religious viewpoints.

 

[PinSeeker]

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
> and that judgment was fulfilled in the day of Jesus' first appearing, and not ever anytime earlier.

Well, again, this is not a judgment, but a promise. And I would say that there was an immediate fulfillment (but not immediate in the sense we would think of immediacy), and it's what you say here ~ fulfilled in the day of His first appearing (although we could validly say it was not finished until He proclaimed it so on the cross). And I would further say that the ultimate fulfillment is yet to come... at the time of Jesus's second coming, when Satan is fully and finally defeated.

Regarding some of the other conversation going on here, Earburner, I think it would behoove you to think of the Bible as God's Word rather than merely that of Moses. Or any other writer of any other book in the Bible.

Grace and peace to you

 

[teamventure]

Smoke in space is a proven reality, being that of uncondensed atoms of Carbon.
Knowledge didn't increase in the days of Moses, so I am sure he was clueless about the gaseous elements of God's creation.

Though "Animal Husbandry" was most certainly a study then, "Chemistry 101" was definitely not.
So, for Moses, the words "Breath of Life" was acceptable for describing the Oxygenated air that man and all animals breathe.
Everyone but the "religious" thinker does understand it in the simplest of terms.
That is my explanation of it, without all the religious viewpoints.

I see what you mean there but you have been explaining away those two scriptures that are obviously pointing out the reality of eternal torment. The word does not mislead and phrases like no rest, torment, and forever are meant to point out those realities.

If those passages weren't stating the reality of eternal torment then they wouldn't contain terminology like no rest, torment, and forever. Scripture does not mislead and should be taken as plainly stated.

 

[Earburner]

Well, again, this is not a judgment, but a promise. And I would say that there was an immediate fulfillment (but not immediate in the sense we would think of immediacy), and it's what you say here ~ fulfilled in the day of His first appearing (although we could validly say it was not finished until He proclaimed it so on the cross). And I would further say that the ultimate fulfillment is yet to come... at the time of Jesus's second coming, when Satan is fully and finally defeated.

Regarding some of the other conversation going on here, Earburner, I think it would behoove you to think of the Bible as God's Word rather than merely that of Moses. Or any other writer of any other book in the Bible.

Grace and peace to you

As for what God's word is, let me put it this way:
First and foremost God the Father is a spirit. He doesn't have vocal cords as we do, though Jesus did and still does. However, for what He does have, is His Eternal thoughts and ways, which are extremely much higher than our human, earthy thoughts and ways, of which we express through OUR lowly human form of communication, being the words of our languages. Isaiah 55:8-9

Since none of us are able to communicate with God's level of thoughts, through our earthy level of thinking, He had to come down to our level, and communicate to us His thoughts, using our words to communicate with. For an analogy, none us are able to communicate effectively with a cat or a dog.

In all actuality, by Him using our earthy words to communicate with, those words are indeed divinely inspired, but still they remain to be our form of words, having OUR understanding of what WE MEAN by them.
But now that God has used our words, those words in context**, now have a divinely enhanced spiritual meaning, which can only be interpreted to us by His Holy Spirit, aka the Mind of Christ. John 16:13.

As a result, "Strongs Concordance", etc. are only human helps, and cannot fully take us there, to understand His divine spiritual meanings.

** Note:
2Tim.3[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Earburner]

I see what you mean there but you have been explaining away those two scriptures that are obviously pointing out the reality of eternal torment. The word does not mislead and phrases like no rest, torment, and forever are meant to point out those realities.

If those passages weren't stating the reality of eternal torment then they wouldn't contain terminology like no rest, torment, and forever. Scripture does not mislead and should be taken as plainly stated.

How can an unsaved person have eternal torment, if they don't have eternal life/existence of any kind??

 

[teamventure]

How can an unsaved person have eternal torment, if they don't have eternal life/existence of any kind??

Because the Bible says so.

 

[teamventure]

How can an unsaved person have eternal torment, if they don't have eternal life/existence of any kind??

They do, where does it say that animals became living souls?

 

[Earburner]

They do, where does it say that animals became living souls?

The word "soul" in the Hebrew is nephesh, which means "animal life". KJV Genesis 2:7
So, through birth by "seed" (procreation) and breathing oxygenated air, both animals and humans have "animal life" only.

 

[teamventure]

The word "soul" in the Hebrew is nephesh, which means "animal life". KJV Genesis 2:7
So, through birth by "seed" (procreation) and breathing oxygenated air, both animals and humans have "animal life" only.

If that's the case how do humans exist forever in heaven?

 

[Earburner]

If that's the case how do humans exist forever in heaven?

Prior to the day of Jesus death and Resurrection, and the giving of His Holy Spirit on Pentecost, no human being was allowed to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. The best that could be established for them, was to have their names written in the "book of Remembrance". Malachi 3:16.
As a result, those who were of faith before Jesus first appeared but did die, they also were GIVEN the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, and are alive, but are asleep in Jesus. They can be seen in Revelation 6:9-11.

Only Jesus IS the First Resurrection, being the firstborn from the dead. Now that He has Ascended into Heaven, we all who are of faith in Him, are now taking part in HIS First Resurrection, being given the Gift of Eternal Life now, though we are still in our mortal flesh. Revelation 20:6, 1 John 5:12-13, 2 Corinthians 4:7.
Therefore, when we physically die, we also are the dead in Christ, who are asleep in Jesus, aka paradise.

All of us, who are born again, are now literally NEW creatures in Christ Jesus, waiting patiently for the Day of His Glorious return, to be resurrected into the likeness of His immortality.