The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Earburner]

Babies do not go to Hell, NEVER!

Hell is the grave! So, yes they do.

 

[Earburner]

where did I say without Christ I would live forever?

Babies are the issue here, not you. Nor are we talking about babies who grow up.

 

[Jack]

Hell is the grave! So, yes they do.

Babies go to Hell? That's not a Christian belief! That sounds more like something from Satan.

 

[Earburner]

Babies go to Hell? That's not a Christian belief! That sounds more like something from Satan.

So to you, Hell is an underworld or off world place of eternal existence with torment forever?

 

[Brakelite]

Babies go to Hell? That's not a Christian belief! That sounds more like something from Satan.

You are misunderstanding what he's saying. He said babies go to the grave. That is the genuine original meaning of the word hell/Sheol. What happens beyond and outside of that physical biblical truth is another matter.
The question of eternal torment... Salvation of babies... Etc etc is a conversation that can not be incontrovertibly settled. One thing is for certain. No man, woman, or child, is naturally immortal. A merciful God may simply not resurrect babies. They simply stay dead. Or, He may not.

 

[Jack]

So to you, Hell is an underworld or off world place of eternal existence with torment forever?

Haven't you read the NT? We are warned several times about the "everlasting fire".
Matthew 5
Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[Jack]

You are misunderstanding what he's saying. He said babies go to the grave. That is the genuine original meaning of the word hell/Sheol. What happens beyond and outside of that physical biblical truth is another matter.
The question of eternal torment... Salvation of babies... Etc etc is a conversation that can not be incontrovertibly settled. One thing is for certain. No man, woman, or child, is naturally immortal. A merciful God may simply not resurrect babies. They simply stay dead. Or, He may not.

I thought he said "Hell". Hell is not the grave. It's the everlasting fire that Jesus warned us all.

 

[Earburner]

You are misunderstanding what he's saying. He said babies go to the grave. That is the genuine original meaning of the word hell/Sheol. What happens beyond and outside of that physical biblical truth is another matter.
The question of eternal torment... Salvation of babies... Etc etc is a conversation that can not be incontrovertibly settled. One thing is for certain. No man, woman, or child, is naturally immortal. A merciful God may simply not resurrect babies. They simply stay dead. Or, He may not.

Yes, that is my point. For babies who have died, none of us can speak truthfully of how God extends His Grace upon them and grant them eternal life. We can only hope that He does, but if not, that I accept and understand also.
But as for any of them being dead in hell, the grave, that is an absolute.

 

[Earburner]

I thought he said "Hell". Hell is not the grave. It's the everlasting fire that Jesus warned us all.

No, only God is an everlasting, all consuming fire.
To be literally burned by everlasting fire is to be consumed by God's presence in person.

You have a "Religious understanding" of that which you have been told by men, of what THEY think hell is.

 

[PinSeeker]

Wow. You take a couple of days off, and come back, and so many different things have entered into the conversation...

Okay, I'm just going to make a few points about where I stand on some of these things, and people can address them or not as they please:

HELL
Hell is most assuredly a real place. Jesus Himself speaks of it extensively. The nature of it we cannot know, but Jesus certainly spoke of it as a real place, and a place of internal, hopeless, conscious agony and torment. This is the "everlasting fire," and for its occupants "their worm that will not die." These are to be understood metaphorically, a real state of being, everlasting and eternal.

ETERNAL PUNISHMENT
It was said a few posts back that, "The punishment of death is everlasting, forever. The punishing of death is temporary, until death is achieved. 'Punishment' is in the KJV NT scriptures. 'Punishing' is not." Yes, I certainly agree; certainly, the final punishment for sin, the second death, does last forever, for all of eternity. But two related things ~ punishment and judgment ~ seem conflated in this statement. One follows the other; punishment follows judgment. The eternal punishment for sin should be thought of in the same sort of light ~ although on a much higher (eternal, of eternity) plane, of course ~ as state-ordered (temporal; of or relating to earthly life) life imprisonment without possibility of parole. To continue this analogy, the effect, or result, of the final Judgment will forever and eternal, but the execution of the Judgment itself will once and for all and final, just as, temporally speaking, the life-imprisonment sentence handed down by the judge at the conclusion of the trial.

LOT'S WIFE
This question was posed to me earlier: "Did God consume Lot's wife, so that she would not live?" In a manner of speaking, yes. God was the one Who caused ~ by natural means ~ what happened to Lot's wife to happen. She was "consumed" in God's righteous judgment. I will allow that a connection can possibly be made to God's statement to Moses in Exodus 33:20 that "man shall not see Me and live," but it would be a fairly loose connection. The event in which Lot's wife became a pillar of salt in Genesis 19 happened well before Moses was given God's Law in Exodus. What happened to her is really more analogous to the following:

• In the Old Testament, God struck Uzzah dead ~ despite Uzzah's seemingly good intentions ~ for merely touching the Ark of the Covenant, It was a violation of God's command in His Law not to touch the holy things, a means of preserving the sense of God’s holiness and the fear of drawing near to Him without appropriate preparation (2 Samuel 6:1-7; also 1 Chronicles 13:9-12)
• In the New Testament, God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead for (as Peter said) lying to the Holy Spirit by keeping back for themselves part of the proceeds of the land; contriving this deed in their hearts; lying not just to man outwardly but to God inwardly; they agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord (Acts 5:1-10).

In all these cases, God's punishment may seem to us to outweigh the transgressions, but we cannot question God's actions or the righteousness and/or holiness of His judgments.

TREE OF LIFE
I'm not sure if this question was addressed to me or not, but the question was, "Why do you think the tree of life granted eternal life and not sustained life instead by being eaten again and again?" Of course, trees cannot grant anything... Yes, Adam and Eve were granted access to the fruit of the tree of life (as well as every other tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). In the immediate sense, yes, their lives were sustained by partaking of it again and again, but again, I would maintain this partaking was symbolic of their unsoiled communion with ~ perfect fellowship in the presence of ~ the triune Jehovah before the Fall in Genesis 3. We will do the same in the new heaven and new earth. Eden ~ really Paradise ~ will be restored once and for all after Jesus's return, the general resurrection, and the final Judgment. For now, in this life, we have the sacrament of communion (the Lord's Supper) which points to our Savior, the Lord Jesus, and His accomplishment of our salvation by His work on the cross and what we will ~ will ~ have in eternity, that being, again, perfect fellowship in the presence of the triune Jehovah.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR DEAD
I am in full agreement with the previous assertion regarding Jesus's statement here in Luke 9 that Jesus is referring to those who don’t love the Father as being spiritually (not symbolically) dead. So, even more literally, let unbelievers bury unbelievers, even though they be deceased family members... really, let nothing detain you or delay you from answering His call and following Him. Spiritual death is a literal truth and a conscious state of being for unbelievers both in this life and in eternity. Yes, it is the state of not being part of God's kingdom ~ which can also be described as not being born again of the Spirit, not being a member of God's elect, and/or not being of the Israel of God.

I think I understand some here to be closely connecting this with what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3, that "(w)hoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already," and I am in full agreement with this. But that condemnation is not yet final for those still living, because they may yet come to believe in Him (Jesus). It is also intimately related to the following:

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. ... If God is for us, who can be against us? ... Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am sure that..." (nothing) "...in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Paul, Romans 8:28-39)

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Paul, Romans 9:14-18)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Paul, Ephesians 1-2)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith ~ more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire ~ may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen Him, you love Him. Though you do not now see Him, you believe in Him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls." (1 Peter 1:3-9)

"By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. ... Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so also are we in this world. ... We love because he first loved us." (John, 1 John 4:13-19)

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6)​

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION, FIRST AND SECOND DEATH
The above, most clearly what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:4-10, Peter in 1 Peter 1:3-5, and John in Revelation 20:4-6, is is the first resurrection, and it is spiritual, and specific only to God's elect. The second resurrection is general and very much physical; as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

The first death is very much physical, and appointed to all without exception ~ general. The second death is experienced only by those not in Christ Jesus at His execution of the final Judgment, and is spiritual in nature ~ spiritual destruction, complete ruin and loss of any hope of salvation. It is not a loss of existence or consciousness, but a removal from the presence of Jesus and an entering into a place completely devoid of God's grace and only consisting of His judgment, which, again, has been finally and permanently rendered by Jesus.

The first and second resurrections (the first is spiritual and specific to believers in this life, the second is physical and general and at the end of this age) are complete reversals of the first and second deaths (the first is physical and general in this life, the second is spiritual and specific to unbelievers at the end of this age). All are states of being. The symmetry is unmistakable.

BABIES
All are born in the state that Adam and Eve fell into in Genesis 3. They may not have sinned outwardly, but are born with the same sinful nature ~ the same inward condition ~ that Adam and Eve, the mother of all the living, acquired in Genesis 3. Thus, unrighteousness is attributed/imputed to them. We are born in this state, and in need of being born again from above, of the Spirit. As David, the man after God's own heart, says in Psalm 51, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." As Paul says in Romans 9, our election unto salvation "...not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy." And if He has this mercy on the person, regardless of age, what He does is, in the words of the prophet Ezekiel, He "give(s) (us) a new heart, and a new spirit (He puts) within (us), (He) remove(s) the heart of stone from (our) flesh and give(s) (us) a heart of flesh, (He) put(s) (His) Spirit within (us)" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

So with regard to babies, even babies still in their mothers' wombs who die, if God changes their hearts, they will be saved. Does He do this for all babies? Well, maybe, but we don't know, because we are not told. All we can say is, it's up to God. The statement that "babies are born without the Holy Spirit of God" is generally true, but God may ~ just as He did with John, who leapt in his mother's womb because he knew he was in the presence of his Savior, Who at that time was still in Mary's womb ~ change the heart of even an unborn infant. To say babies "do not" or "never" go to hell... we cannot know. We cannot know. So the statement that "(f)or babies who have died, none of us can speak truthfully of how God extends His Grace upon them and grant them eternal life... (w)e can only hope that He does" is absolutely correct. He may or may not. He's God, and everything He does ~ somehow ~ brings glory to Himself, as Paul says in Romans 9.

Additionally, in Jesus's calling little children to Him, He was not saying they are not sinful, but that they are not to be hindered; people are welcome to come to Him regardless of age or any other prerequisite. And this can be understood also in the context of baptism, and even infant baptism. Water baptism does not itself save, and a credible profession of belief in Jesus is not needed, as it is a sign and seal of the promise of God, just as circumcision on the 8th day of the infant's life was in the Old Testament, and is not to be withheld from anyone for any reason. Water baptism is properly administered to infants of believers (but if no longer an infant, as soon as possible), and the parents are in faith trusting of and calling on God's promise to work through them and save the child at His appointed time. Here, I would echo what Peter says in Acts 2:38, "(r)epent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself." And in various places in Acts, we see men and women and their whole households being baptized.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Earburner]

FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION, FIRST AND SECOND DEATH
The above, most clearly what Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:4-10, Peter in 1 Peter 1:3-5, and John in Revelation 20:4-6, is is the first resurrection, and it is spiritual, and specific only to God's elect. The second resurrection is general and very much physical; as Jesus says in John 5:28-29, "all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

The first death is very much physical, and appointed to all without exception ~ general. The second death is experienced only by those not in Christ Jesus at His execution of the final Judgment, and is spiritual in nature ~ spiritual destruction, complete ruin and loss of any hope of salvation. It is not a loss of existence or consciousness, but a removal from the presence of Jesus and an entering into a place completely devoid of God's grace and only consisting of His judgment, which, again, has been finally and permanently rendered by Jesus.

The first and second resurrections (the first is spiritual and specific to believers in this life, the second is physical and general and at the end of this age) are complete reversals of the first and second deaths (the first is physical and general in this life, the second is spiritual and specific to unbelievers at the end of this age). All are states of being. The symmetry is unmistakable.

Gen.2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [earth], and breathed [oxygenated air] into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If you think that Adam was given an eternal soul on the basis of believing that the breath of life is an eternal soul, then you are going have to include all air breathing animals, as having been given eternal souls also. Gen. 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life [oxygenated air], of all that was in the dry land, died.

 

[Earburner]

ETERNAL PUNISHMENT
It was said a few posts back that, "The punishment of death is everlasting, forever. The punishing of death is temporary, until death is achieved. 'Punishment' is in the KJV NT scriptures. 'Punishing' is not." Yes, I certainly agree; certainly, the final punishment for sin, the second death, does last forever, for all of eternity. But two related things ~ punishment and judgment ~ seem conflated in this statement. One follows the other; punishment follows judgment. The eternal punishment for sin should be thought of in the same sort of light ~ although on a much higher (eternal, of eternity) plane, of course ~ as state-ordered (temporal; of or relating to earthly life) life imprisonment without possibility of parole. To continue this analogy, the effect, or result, of the final Judgment will forever and eternal, but the execution of the Judgment itself will once and for all and final, just as, temporally speaking, the life-imprisonment sentence handed down by the judge at the conclusion of the trial.

Your analogy doesn't reach the ultimate conclusion, which is death.
Sure a person can be imprisoned for life, being a form of punish-ing, but eventually during the torment of imprisonment, whereby the freedom of one's natural life is strictly contained, they are only waiting for the natural form of punish-ment of death to come. In essence, the punish-ing for death stops, but the punish-ment of death is eternal.

However, if the judgment is for immediate death, whereby the freedom of one's natural life is forcibly taken from them, that would be like a crime committed and was immediately confronted by the police, whereby the offender was killed at the scene.

In both cases, the ultimate goal of death was achieved for both the offenders.

 

[PinSeeker]

Gen.2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [earth], and breathed [oxygenated air] into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If you think that Adam was given an eternal soul on the basis of believing that the breath of life is an eternal soul, then you are going have to include all air breathing animals, as having been given eternal souls also. Gen. 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life [oxygenated air], of all that was in the dry land, died.

No, that's not the basis at all, Earburner. I've been clear that the immediate basis for understanding that man is eternal ~ future only, of course, not past ~ is Genesis 1:26-27 (emphasis mine)... "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

Your analogy doesn't reach the ultimate conclusion, which is death.

LOL! No offense intended, Earburner, but that's just nonsense. I was very careful to say that "eternal punishment for sin should be thought of in the same sort of light ~ although on a much higher (eternal, of eternity) plane, of course ~ as state-ordered (temporal; of or relating to earthly life) life imprisonment without possibility of parole." The primary thing it was meant to show was it's lasting nature... without end, not temporary or even momentary. But there is a death in it, too; in a very real sense, in life imprisonment, the prisoner does not live a full, free life in any sense and for all practical purposes does not have life and is dead to the world; it is a death.

Sure a person can be imprisoned for life, being a form of punish-ing, but eventually during the torment of imprisonment, whereby the freedom of one's natural life is strictly contained, they are only waiting for the natural form of punish-ment of death to come. In essence, the punish-ing for death stops, but the punish-ment of death is eternal.

You're playing with words and artificially manufacturing a point that is just not there. The punishment for the crime committed is life imprisonment, not physical death. But the imprisonment is a taking away of freedom and in a real sense life itself and therefore the administering of a death, which is what I essentially said above. So I do like, at least somewhat, your "whereby" statement... that "the freedom of one's natural life is strictly contained" ~ in this way, it is a death.

The analogy was only meant to help us to better understand the second death. No, we can't really compare on a one-to-one basis the temporal and the eternal, but we can ~ if we don't just close our eyes ~ understand, at least in basic terms, eternal things by likening them to temporal, earthly things. It's a bit like learning about life through sports; there are many life lessons in sports. Obviously, I'm a golfer, and there is a plethora of life lessons that can be drawn from the game of golf. Likewise, again, we can understand at least in basic terms eternal things by likening them on some level to temporal things. Jesus Himself does this quite often, in the form of parables. But to draw an analogy to what you're doing here, someone could have heard His parable about, say, the wheat and the tares and say, "Well, good grief, Jesus, people are people! How can you compare them to grain or weeds, which are just plants?!", but... that would not be wise.

I think you're just being obstinate, Earburner. You've decided what you believe, and said, essentially, "By golly, come hell or high water, I'm just gonna make it fit!" I'm... kind of hackin' atcha; sorry...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

No, that's not the basis at all, Earburner. I've been clear that the immediate basis for understanding that man is eternal ~ future only, of course, not past ~ is Genesis 1:26-27 (emphasis mine)... "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."


LOL! No offense intended, Earburner, but that's just nonsense. I was very careful to say that "eternal punishment for sin should be thought of in the same sort of light ~ although on a much higher (eternal, of eternity) plane, of course ~ as state-ordered (temporal; of or relating to earthly life) life imprisonment without possibility of parole." The primary thing it was meant to show was it's lasting nature... without end, not temporary or even momentary. But there is a death in it, too; in a very real sense, in life imprisonment, the prisoner does not live a full, free life in any sense and for all practical purposes does not have life and is dead to the world; it is a death.


You're playing with words and artificially manufacturing a point that is just not there. The punishment for the crime committed is life imprisonment, not physical death. But the imprisonment is a taking away of freedom and in a real sense life itself and therefore the administering of a death, which is what I essentially said above. So I do like, at least somewhat, your "whereby" statement... that "the freedom of one's natural life is strictly contained" ~ in this way, it is a death.

The analogy was only meant to help us to better understand the second death. No, we can't really compare on a one-to-one basis the temporal and the eternal, but we can ~ if we don't just close our eyes ~ understand, at least in basic terms, eternal things by likening them to temporal, earthly things. It's a bit like learning about life through sports; there are many life lessons in sports. Obviously, I'm a golfer, and there is a plethora of life lessons that can be drawn from the game of golf. Likewise, again, we can understand at least in basic terms eternal things by likening them on some level to temporal things. Jesus Himself does this quite often, in the form of parables. But to draw an analogy to what you're doing here, someone could have heard His parable about, say, the wheat and the tares and say, "Well, good grief, Jesus, people are people! How can you compare them to grain or weeds, which are just plants?!", but... that would not be wise.

I think you're just being obstinate, Earburner. You've decided what you believe, and said, essentially, "By golly, come hell or high water, I'm just gonna make it fit!" I'm... kind of hackin' atcha; sorry...

Grace and peace to you.

In John 3:18, there are two judgments by God.
The first judgment was for eternal death.
The second judgment was for eternal life.

He that believes in Jesus,
"Shall never die".
He that does not believe in Jesus,
"Shall surely die".
Why it is that you want to paint a Grey line between them is beyond me, when it's clearly either black or white.

 

[PinSeeker]

In John 3:18, there are two judgments by God. The first judgment was for eternal death. The second judgment was for eternal life.

In a certain way, that could be correct; the term judgment is used in more than one way in the Bible, and is understood in different ways. God issues judgments all through the Bible, and for different reasons, but these judgments are never a good thing. On the other hand, Jesus, upon His return, will render the one final Judgment. To the latter, as you well know, I'm sure ~ how many times have I pointed this out? I've lost count, now ~ Jesus Himself says, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28-29, emphasis mine). These are the two resurrections, actually the two very different outcomes of the one Judgment, the event in which Jesus separates the weeds from the wheat (Matthew 13:24-29), those on His left from those on His right (Matthew 25:31-46). Now, you may actually mean this, but as to your assertion above. the first is a judgment, and those receiving it will be under it forever, but the second is a blessing, the removal of all judgment forever.

Why it is that you want to paint a Grey line between them is beyond me, when it's clearly either black or white.

LOL! Not doing that... Yeah, it is definitely a very clear and stark contrast, even "black and white"... I certainly agree with that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

These are the two resurrections, actually the two very different outcomes of the one Judgment, the event in which Jesus separates the weeds from the wheat (Matthew 13:24-29), those on His left from those on His right (Matthew 25:31-46).

No, the first judgment of death has been looming over us for many millennia. There never was any other choice, until the second judgment of the Gift of eternal life was made available to us, through the obedience of Jesus.
1. "Because" of unbelief, "Thou shalt surely die."
2. Because of belief, "[Ye] shall never die".
It's not that hard to understand.

 

[teamventure]

Gen.2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground [earth], and breathed [oxygenated air] into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If you think that Adam was given an eternal soul on the basis of believing that the breath of life is an eternal soul, then you are going have to include all air breathing animals, as having been given eternal souls also. Gen. 7[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life [oxygenated air], of all that was in the dry land, died.

Where does it say that he breathed a living soul into animals? It only says that about the creation of man. There is the distinction. That proves you wrong from the very verse you quoted.

 

[Earburner]

Where does it say that he breathed a living soul into animals? It only says that about the creation of man. There is the distinction. That proves you wrong from the very verse you quoted.

Where does it say that God breathed "a living soul" into Adam. "The Breath of life" is not a living soul, but if it is, then the animals have it also. Genesis 2:7, 6:17, 7:15,22. Is that what you want to say?