The (so called) Real Presence

[tabletalk]

From 1Thessalonians 2: 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?


There is no 'Real Presence' in the bread and wine of the Eucharist (table of Communion).
Christians wait for His real presence: the revelation of the Lord Jesus, 'at His coming'.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

From 1Thessalonians 2: 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?


There is no 'Real Presence' in the bread and wine of the Eucharist (table of Communion).
Christians wait for His real presence: the revelation of the Lord Jesus, 'at His coming'.

Tabletalk, before this thread goes in the direction you obviously want it to go in, I have to ask you: Is not the Revelation of Jesus Christ... now?

Revelation 1:1 says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shorty come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." to show whose servants? To reveal Jesus Christ is to have Him seen. Do you see Him while others remain still blind to the revelation of who He is? I get what you are saying. But when the word opens to a person, when a persons eyes open to the truth, when they receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ... they walk in newness. Now.

Proverbs 28:12 When righteous men do rejoice, there is great glory: but when the wicked rise, a man is hidden.

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.


I have to add if His real presence is not already here then I might-as-well go get back in bed and stay there; because I can't do the remainder of this life alone.

 

[tabletalk]

Tabletalk, before this thread goes in the direction you obviously want it to go in, I have to ask you: Is not the Revelation of Jesus Christ... now?

Revelation 1:1 says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shorty come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." to show whose servants? To reveal Jesus Christ is to have Him seen. Do you see Him while others remain still blind to the revelation of who He is? I get what you are saying. But when the word opens to a person, when a persons eyes open to the truth, when they receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ... they walk in newness. Now.

Proverbs 28:12 When righteous men do rejoice, there is great glory: but when the wicked rise, a man is hidden.

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.


I have to add if His real presence is not already here then I might-as-well go get back in bed and stay there; because I can't do the remainder of this life alone.

You said: "But when the word opens to a person, when a persons eyes open to the truth, when they receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ... they walk in newness. Now."

I agree. I may add further words, but for now I do think the verse is referring to the end of everything, the coming of the Lord Jesus. So, I don't think He is physically here, in the bread and wine.

I do appreciate your posts.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

I have to add if His real presence is not already here then I might-as-well go get back in bed and stay there; because I can't do the remainder of this life alone.

 

[Frank Lee]

I can always sense the presence of the Holy Spirit. So sad those that cannot. Jude mentions those having not the spirit.

So sad. All I have to say.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I can always sense the presence of the Holy Spirit. So sad those that cannot. Jude mentions those having not the spirit.

So sad. All I have to say.

It is sad that you are misleading believers into thinking they are missing FEELING the presence of the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit dwells in all believers by faith in Jesus Christ.... as in faith... the evidence of things not seen or felt, brother.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[tabletalk]

Tabletalk, before this thread goes in the direction you obviously want it to go in, I have to ask you: Is not the Revelation of Jesus Christ... now?

Revelation 1:1 says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shorty come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." to show whose servants? To reveal Jesus Christ is to have Him seen. Do you see Him while others remain still blind to the revelation of who He is? I get what you are saying. But when the word opens to a person, when a persons eyes open to the truth, when they receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ... they walk in newness. Now.

Proverbs 28:12 When righteous men do rejoice, there is great glory: but when the wicked rise, a man is hidden.

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.


I have to add if His real presence is not already here then I might-as-well go get back in bed and stay there; because I can't do the remainder of this life alone.

(adding bold lettering)
I don't think His real presence is here.
Verse 17 says: "But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire."
Then in verse 19 he mentions the presence of the Lord at His coming.
Paul seems to be saying that the word presence means: 'in person'.
But, he is with the brethren in heart.
So, you are not alone; His presence is with all believers, by faith, not by sight.

 

[Stranger]

From 1Thessalonians 2: 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?


There is no 'Real Presence' in the bread and wine of the Eucharist (table of Communion).
Christians wait for His real presence: the revelation of the Lord Jesus, 'at His coming'.

I would say that Jesus Christ is present during the observing of the 'Lords Supper'. Christ's presence cannot be compared to Paul's as Christ's Spirit is in us. And I also say that God the Father is equally present in this worshipful observance. It carries with it warnings.

Stranger

 

[tabletalk]

I would say that Jesus Christ is present during the observing of the 'Lords Supper'. Christ's presence cannot be compared to Paul's as Christ's Spirit is in us. And I also say that God the Father is equally present in this worshipful observance. It carries with it warnings.

Stranger

It seems as if there is a contrast between a 'presence' in heart, as Paul is claiming to have with the brethren in vs. 17, and a 'presence' in person' at His coming, as in vs.19.

1 Thessalonians 2:17. "But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire."

19. "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

(adding bold lettering)
I don't think His real presence is here.
Verse 17 says: "But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire."
Then in verse 19 he mentions the presence of the Lord at His coming.
Paul seems to be saying that the word presence means: 'in person'.
But, he is with the brethren in heart.
So, you are not alone; His presence is with all believers, by faith, not by sight.

Don't misunderstand me, Tabletalk. I've seen no visible being. No fleshly body as I would see you if you were to stand in front of me. I don't hear audible voices. But I have seen the Lord. His presence is already here. I get what you mean by tangible reach-out-and-touch Him presence. What I have seen is the Spirit of truth vs the spirit of error. Light to light a path. He is as real and present for me, even more so, then any other person is present. A relationship that is necessary, a relationship I could not live without. He speaks. He corrects. He brings things hidden inside me that I didnt even know about, to light. HE answers questions I ask directly. As I asked them, He replies. Like any other relationship, sometimes I get bossy and want to run things and don't listen to what He has to say very well, and then I end up going in the wrong direction and add to. But to say His presence is not here...can you see the places where His presence is Not?

Acts 23:11
[11] And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

Was this external or internal: 2 Timothy 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Was going to the third Heaven external or internal?

 

[tabletalk]

Don't misunderstand me, Tabletalk. I've seen no visible being. No fleshly body as I would see you if you were to stand in front of me. I don't hear audible voices. But I have seen the Lord. His presence is already here. I get what you mean by tangible reach-out-and-touch Him presence. What I have seen is the Spirit of truth vs the spirit of error. Light to light a path. He is as real and present for me, even more so, then any other person is present. A relationship that is necessary, a relationship I could not live without. He speaks. He corrects. He brings things hidden inside me that I didnt even know about, to light. HE answers questions I ask directly. As I asked them, He replies. Like any other relationship, sometimes I get bossy and want to run things and don't listen to what He has to say very well, and then I end up going in the wrong direction and add to. But to say His presence is not here...can you see the places where His presence is Not?

Acts 23:11
[11] And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

Was this external or internal: 2 Timothy 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Was going to the third Heaven external or internal?

Guess I can't answer either of your questions; both are mysteries to me. I do not deny His presence, though, just as you described. Probably different for every believer. I think I even had a series of 'visions' at an early stage of my conversion.
You have a much closer, more intimate, walk with the Lord, than I do.

 

[Stranger]

It seems as if there is a contrast between a 'presence' in heart, as Paul is claiming to have with the brethren in vs. 17, and a 'presence' in person' at His coming, as in vs.19.

1 Thessalonians 2:17. "But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire."

19. "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?"

The 'presence' of Paul or any other believer cannot be compared to the 'presence' of God or Christ.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

From 1Thessalonians 2: 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

There is no 'Real Presence' in the bread and wine of the Eucharist (table of Communion).
Christians wait for His real presence: the revelation of the Lord Jesus, 'at His coming'.

You're advocating that at the Last Supper, Jesus said, "This is a mere symbol of my body" and "This is just a metaphorical example of my blood."

The Bible, however, says that Jesus emphatically said, "This IS my Body" and "This IS my blood."

I'll stick to the words of Christ over those of an angry anti-Catholic ANY day . . .

 

[tabletalk]

You're advocating that at the Last Supper, Jesus said, "This is a mere symbol of my body" and "This is just a metaphorical example of my blood."

The Bible, however, says that Jesus emphatically said, "This IS my Body" and "This IS my blood."

I'll stick to the words of Christ over those of an angry anti-Catholic ANY day . . .

I'm anti-Catholic/Orthodox churches.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm anti-Catholic/Orthodox churches.

And anti-Bible if you deny the Real Presence . . .

 

[tabletalk]

And anti-Bible if you deny the Real Presence . . .

I deny that the bread and wine is God in person: it is not an object to be worshipped.
Do your Protestant siblings deny the 'Real Presence' ?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I deny that the bread and wine is God in person: it is not an object to be worshipped.
Do your Protestant siblings deny the 'Real Presence' ?

Of course they do - they're Protestants.

Funny how some of your Protestant Fathers DID believe in the Real Presence. However, because the spirit of Protestantism is perpetual splintering - it's not surprising to see how you've all evolved . . .

 

[tabletalk]

From 2Corinthians 5: 16. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

From Catholic.com: "The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as "unbiblical," but the Bible is forthright in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71)."

No, God is not 'in person' , 'face to face', in the Catholic Church's Eucharist.
The issue isn't whether, or not, God is in the bread and wine because, according to the teaching of Transubstantiation. those objects are no longer bread and wine,
The issue is, that those objects are God Himself!
No, they aren't. The Real Presence is not a true teaching.

 

[kit]

For me this brings to mind Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them."

 

[aspen]

From 1Thessalonians 2: 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?


There is no 'Real Presence' in the bread and wine of the Eucharist (table of Communion).
Christians wait for His real presence: the revelation of the Lord Jesus, 'at His coming'.

I think you might want to read up on the doctrine before you dismiss it.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is the Blood and Body of Christ. It is not a container for Jesus made of bread and wine.