The (so called) Real Presence

[tabletalk]

I think you might want to read up on the doctrine before you dismiss it.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is the Blood and Body of Christ. It is not a container for Jesus made of bread and wine.

I think you are right: it is not a container for Jesus made of bread and wine.
The objects are actually Him, according to your Church. In person. Face to face.
You worship a god you can see. Protestants worship the God they cannot see, by faith.

 

[aspen]

I think you are right: it is not a container for Jesus made of bread and wine.
The objects are actually Him, according to your Church. In person. Face to face.
You worship a god you can see. Protestants worship the God they cannot see, by faith.

So do you believe it is better to have your kind of faith?

It sounds like you as saying that the Catholic Church’s teachings are wrong, but are an advantage for the Church.....as if, part of the church wants to peddle this difficult teaching for some nefarious reason...

Since this is hardly the only difficult teaching found within Christianity, why do you think later Protestants (appearing after Anglicans and Lutherans) rejected it, while keeping the Virgin Birth of Christ, for example?

Of course, if you really think about it, the idea that Jesus was born with human flesh is just as hard to believe as bread and wine; the same reasoning for rejecting the idea that you have presented can be applied - should we just have faith in God rather than idolizing a man?

See, I have a theory about this........it is not the so-called absurd nature of the teaching or idea that you suggested, a lack of faith requiring a transitional object like bread and wine that led to rejection of this teaching. Instead, it was due to the rebellion of the Reformers - it was actually about the issue of authority. Since it involved Apostlic Succesion, it must be rejected or their brand of Protestantism would be merely an act of rebellion.

What do you think?

 

[epostle1]

From 2Corinthians 5: 16. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

From Catholic.com: "The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as "unbiblical," but the Bible is forthright in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71)."

No, God is not 'in person' , 'face to face', in the Catholic Church's Eucharist.
The issue isn't whether, or not, God is in the bread and wine because, according to the teaching of Transubstantiation. those objects are no longer bread and wine,
The issue is, that those objects are God Himself!
No, they aren't. The Real Presence is not a true teaching.

It's not a true teaching to you because of the way you were brought up. There can be no Transubstantiation without a validly ordained priesthood, which was unbiblically abolished in the Protestant revolt. So you have had several generations of unbelief.

The simplest way to express what Christ asks us to believe about the Real Presence is that the Eucharist is really He. The Real Presence is the real Jesus. We are to believe that the Eucharist began in the womb of the Virgin Mary; that the flesh which the Son of God received from His Mother at the Incarnation is the same flesh into which He changed bread at the Last Supper; that the blood He received from His Mother is the same blood into which He changed wine at the Last Supper. Had she not given Him His flesh and blood there could not be a Eucharist.

We are to believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ - simply, without qualification. It is God become man in the fullness of His divine nature, in the fullness of His human nature, in the fullness of His body and soul, in the fullness of everything that makes Jesus Jesus. He is in the Eucharist with His human mind and will united with the Divinity, with His hands and feet, His face and features, with His eyes and lips and ears and nostrils, with His affections and emotions and, with emphasis, with His living, pulsating, physical Sacred Heart. That is what our Catholic Faith demands of us that we believe. If we believe this, we are Catholic. If we do not, we are not, no matter what people may think we are.

Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

• The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.
  
  
• The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
  
  
• The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.
  
  
• In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
  
  
• The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.
  
  
• The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).
  
  
• In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
  
  
• In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
  
  
• The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

Fig. 1 - Eosine x 200. Overall histological aspect of a Flesh sample with fibers collected in bundles with longitudinal orientation as it occurs in the outer surface layers of the heart.

Fig. 2 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 250. An artery and, very close, a branch of the vagal nerve.

Fig. 3 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 400. Evidence of the "Rough" aspect of the endocardium; the syncytoid structure of the myocardial tissue

Fig. 4 - Elution-absorption test x 80. Above: Hemagglutination test on blood sample in Lanciano: on the left, anti A serum used; on the right, anti-B serum. Below: hemoagglutination test on a Flesh sample in Lanciano: left, with anti-A serum, right,with anti-B serum. It appears thus that the Flesh and the Blood in Lanciano belong to AB blood group.

Fig. 5 - Electro-phoretic pattern of Blood proteins (Cromoscan photometer). The profile of serum fractions is normal and superimposable to that of a fresh serum sample.
In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

Eucharistic Miracles

 

[mjrhealth]

It's not a true teaching to you because of the way you were brought up. There can be no Transubstantiation without a validly ordained priesthood, which was unbiblically abolished in the Protestant revolt. So you have had several generations of unbelief.

The simplest way to express what Christ asks us to believe about the Real Presence is that the Eucharist is really He. The Real Presence is the real Jesus. We are to believe that the Eucharist began in the womb of the Virgin Mary; that the flesh which the Son of God received from His Mother at the Incarnation is the same flesh into which He changed bread at the Last Supper; that the blood He received from His Mother is the same blood into which He changed wine at the Last Supper. Had she not given Him His flesh and blood there could not be a Eucharist.

We are to believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ - simply, without qualification. It is God become man in the fullness of His divine nature, in the fullness of His human nature, in the fullness of His body and soul, in the fullness of everything that makes Jesus Jesus. He is in the Eucharist with His human mind and will united with the Divinity, with His hands and feet, His face and features, with His eyes and lips and ears and nostrils, with His affections and emotions and, with emphasis, with His living, pulsating, physical Sacred Heart. That is what our Catholic Faith demands of us that we believe. If we believe this, we are Catholic. If we do not, we are not, no matter what people may think we are.

Ancient Anxanum, the city of the Frentanese, has contained for over twelve centuries the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

• The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.
  
  
• The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
  
  
• The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.
  
  
• In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.
  
  
• The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.
  
  
• The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).
  
  
• In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.
  
  
• In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
  
  
• The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.

Fig. 1 - Eosine x 200. Overall histological aspect of a Flesh sample with fibers collected in bundles with longitudinal orientation as it occurs in the outer surface layers of the heart.

Fig. 2 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 250. An artery and, very close, a branch of the vagal nerve.

Fig. 3 - Miracle Heart in Lanciano. Mallory x 400. Evidence of the "Rough" aspect of the endocardium; the syncytoid structure of the myocardial tissue

Fig. 4 - Elution-absorption test x 80. Above: Hemagglutination test on blood sample in Lanciano: on the left, anti A serum used; on the right, anti-B serum. Below: hemoagglutination test on a Flesh sample in Lanciano: left, with anti-A serum, right,with anti-B serum. It appears thus that the Flesh and the Blood in Lanciano belong to AB blood group.

Fig. 5 - Electro-phoretic pattern of Blood proteins (Cromoscan photometer). The profile of serum fractions is normal and superimposable to that of a fresh serum sample.
In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

Eucharistic Miracles

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

so much garbage, when will the trah man take it out and dispose of it.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Come Jesus come, before even the Elect get confounded with teh lies.

 

[tabletalk]

So do you believe it is better to have your kind of faith?

It sounds like you as saying that the Catholic Church’s teachings are wrong, but are an advantage for the Church.....as if, part of the church wants to peddle this difficult teaching for some nefarious reason...

Since this is hardly the only difficult teaching found within Christianity, why do you think later Protestants (appearing after Anglicans and Lutherans) rejected it, while keeping the Virgin Birth of Christ, for example?

Of course, if you really think about it, the idea that Jesus was born with human flesh is just as hard to believe as bread and wine; the same reasoning for rejecting the idea that you have presented can be applied - should we just have faith in God rather than idolizing a man?

See, I have a theory about this........it is not the so-called absurd nature of the teaching or idea that you suggested, a lack of faith requiring a transitional object like bread and wine that led to rejection of this teaching. Instead, it was due to the rebellion of the Reformers - it was actually about the issue of authority. Since it involved Apostlic Succesion, it must be rejected or their brand of Protestantism would be merely an act of rebellion.

What do you think?

You said: "So do you believe it is better to have your kind of faith?"
Yes, for Scriptural reasons. (Walk by faith, not by sight. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If you see something, why do you still hope for it? What we can see is temporal, what is not seen is eternal.)

You said: "What do you think?" (about your theory)
I think all of these issues come down to Authority.
Catholic/Orthodox Churches act as if , as you say: "Protestantism would be merely an act of rebellion." As if all we are doing is rebelling against the real authority you claim. No, your Churches have no authority.

By the way, I did say at some point I would not respond to your posts, but since you asked me a direct question, I've changed my mind.

 

[epostle1]

From 2Corinthians 5: 16. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

From Catholic.com: "The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as "unbiblical," but the Bible is forthright in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71)."

No, God is not 'in person' , 'face to face', in the Catholic Church's Eucharist.
The issue isn't whether, or not, God is in the bread and wine because, according to the teaching of Transubstantiation. those objects are no longer bread and wine,
The issue is, that those objects are God Himself!
No, they aren't. The Real Presence is not a true teaching.

John 6:55 – to clarify further, Jesus says “For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed.” This phrase can only be understood as being responsive to those who do not believe that Jesus’ flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed. Further, Jesus uses the word which is translated as “sarx.” “Sarx” means flesh (not “soma” which means body). See, for example, John 1:13,14; 3:6; 8:15; 17:2; Matt. 16:17; 19:5; 24:22; 26:41; Mark 10:8; 13:20; 14:38; and Luke 3:6; 24:39 which provides other examples in Scripture where “sarx” means flesh. It is always literal.

John 6:55 – further, the phrases “real” food and “real” drink use the word “alethes.” “Alethes” means “really” or “truly,” and would only be used if there were doubts concerning the reality of Jesus’ flesh and blood as being food and drink. Thus, Jesus is emphasizing the miracle of His body and blood being actual food and drink.

John 6:60 – as are many anti-Catholics today, Jesus’ disciples are scandalized by these words. They even ask, “Who can ‘listen’ to it (much less understand it)?” To the unillumined mind, it seems grotesque.

John 6:61-63 – Jesus acknowledges their disgust. Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” means the disciples need supernatural faith, not logic, to understand His words.

John 3:6 – Jesus often used the comparison of “spirit versus flesh” to teach about the necessity of possessing supernatural faith versus a natural understanding. In Mark 14:38 Jesus also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We must go beyond the natural to understand the supernatural. In 1 Cor. 2:14,3:3; Rom 8:5; and Gal. 5:17, Paul also uses the “spirit/flesh” comparison to teach that unspiritual people are not011 receiving the gift of faith. They are still “in the flesh.”

John 6:63 – Protestants often argue that Jesus’ use of the phrase “the spirit gives life” shows that Jesus was only speaking symbolically. However, Protestants must explain why there is not one place in Scripture where “spirit” means “symbolic.” As we have seen, the use of “spirit” relates to supernatural faith. What words are spirit and life? The words that we must eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us.

You have no supernatural faith, and conclude we are wrong.

 

[epostle1]

I think all of these issues come down to Authority.
Catholic/Orthodox Churches act as if , as you say: "Protestantism would be merely an act of rebellion." As if all we are doing is rebelling against the real authority you claim. No, your Churches have no authority.

Then explain how an invisible church can bind and loose. Oh, I forgot; you have your own definition of binding and loosing that has nothing to do with the original rabbinical term.

 

[Marymog]

From 1Thessalonians 2: 19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

There is no 'Real Presence' in the bread and wine of the Eucharist (table of Communion).
Christians wait for His real presence: the revelation of the Lord Jesus, 'at His coming'.

Hi TT,

The passage you quoted has NOTHING to do with the Real Presence or the Eucharist or the Last Supper when Jesus implemented this sacrament or AFTER it was implemented. I see you are still hungry to learn about the Real Presence and you are using scripture to do so. Here are a few passages to help guide you in your bible study and hopefully open your eyes so you wont walk away before it's to late and you bring damnation upon yourself:

He took some bread and gave thanks to God for it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "This IS my body, which is given for you. Do this to remember me."

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."

When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Bible study Mary

PS....Here is further reading on how the earliest Christians (the ones who walked and talked with the Apostles) interpreted all this and how what they practiced and believed matched up with what scripture says: Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

 

[tabletalk]

Hi TT,

The passage you quoted has NOTHING to do with the Real Presence or the Eucharist or the Last Supper when Jesus implemented this sacrament or AFTER it was implemented. I see you are still hungry to learn about the Real Presence and you are using scripture to do so. Here are a few passages to help guide you in your bible study and hopefully open your eyes so you wont walk away before it's to late and you bring damnation upon yourself:

He took some bread and gave thanks to God for it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "This IS my body, which is given for you. Do this to remember me."

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."

When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Bible study Mary

PS....Here is further reading on how the earliest Christians (the ones who walked and talked with the Apostles) interpreted all this and how what they practiced and believed matched up with what scripture says: Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Nope, not '..hungry to learn about the Real Presence' .

You said: "...so you wont walk away before it's to late and you bring damnation upon yourself:.."
Does your religion teach that Protestants are bringing damnation upon themselves, not having the Real Presence on their Communion table? Would that mean a Protestant cannot be saved, or just, probably cannot be saved?

 

[epostle1]

Nope, not '..hungry to learn about the Real Presence' .

You said: "...so you wont walk away before it's to late and you bring damnation upon yourself:.."
Does your religion teach that Protestants are bringing damnation upon themselves, not having the Real Presence on their Communion table? Would that mean a Protestant cannot be saved, or just, probably cannot be saved?

It means anyone with full knowledge and understanding of the Real Presence and turns their back on Jesus is taking a grave risk. See John 6:66. Hmm...where have I seen those numbers before??
There they were, standing in front of the greatest teacher the world has ever seen, and He failed to get them to understand? No, they understood. They just refused to believe.
You don't have full knowledge and understanding of the Real Presence, and if you did, you just choose not to believe. So take a walk (John 6:66) and be respectful of a doctrine and practice that predates Protestantism by 1500 years.

 

[BreadOfLife]

From 2Corinthians 5: 16. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

From Catholic.com: "The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as "unbiblical," but the Bible is forthright in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71)."

No, God is not 'in person' , 'face to face', in the Catholic Church's Eucharist.
The issue isn't whether, or not, God is in the bread and wine because, according to the teaching of Transubstantiation. those objects are no longer bread and wine,
The issue is, that those objects are God Himself!
No, they aren't. The Real Presence is not a true teaching.

Hmmmm . . . so, according to YOU - every Early Church Father from Ignatius of Antioch to Augustine and beyond was in heresy regarding the Eucharist? Every single one of them unanimously taught and believed in the Real Presence - but YOU are correct and they are all wrong?

You're saying that Paul and John were in heresy along with EVERY person in the Church for 1500 years - but YOU have it right?? Martin Luther - the FATHER of Protestantism was wrong for his belief in the Real Presence - but his spiritual offspring are correct in denying it??

The Early Christians who were accused of cannibalism for their belief in the Real Peesence and were put to death for it were all duped?

Can you show me ONE teaching against the Real Presence for the first 1500 years of the Church?

 

[epostle1]

Protestants view the Eucharist the same as Jews and Muslims view the incarnation,
God couldn't or wouldn't or shouldn't become man.

 

[BreadOfLife]

For me this brings to mind Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them."

It reminds ME of when He said:
Matt. 28:20
And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

And He HAS been . . .

 

[Marymog]

Nope, not '..hungry to learn about the Real Presence' .

You said: "...so you wont walk away before it's to late and you bring damnation upon yourself:.."
Does your religion teach that Protestants are bringing damnation upon themselves, not having the Real Presence on their Communion table? Would that mean a Protestant cannot be saved, or just, probably cannot be saved?

Hi,

Thank you TT. My goal was to quote scripture in context to what scripture has to say about the Real Presence. What you quoted in your original post has NOTHING to do with the Real Presence. You twisted it to fit your theory but don't forget what scripture has to say about twisting scripture.

Yes, my religion teaches that 1 Corinthians 11:27 is true just like the rest of scripture is true. Anyone who teaches opposite of scripture will probably not be saved but that's up to God.

Mary