The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[Timtofly]

Which is?


You think what is described in Revelation 20:9 (people being consumed by fire) is separated by a thousand years from what is described in Revelation 20:15 (people being cast into the lake of fire)?

You said different things, not me. I just agreed.

Who says they are? It talks about them being cast into the lake of fire, not being consumed by physical fire. Those are different things.

What are the two different things separated by that makes them different?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What are the two different things separated by that makes them different?

Let's look at the text itself to determine that.

Revelation 20:9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, first, we have a description of fire coming down from heaven to destroy people who were attacking "the camp of God's people". Would you agree that is talking about physical fire physically killing people on the earth?

Then, right after that (not a thousand years later) occurs we see a description of Satan being cast into the lake of fire followed by the judgment with death and Hades and "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life" being "thrown into the lake of fire", which is called "the second death". That's not a description of physical fire coming down from heaven to physically destroy people, right? So, that is clearly talking about something different than verse 9 is talking about. Do you agree or not? If not, why not?

 

[Timtofly]

Let's look at the text itself to determine that.

Revelation 20:9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, first, we have a description of fire coming down from heaven to destroy people who were attacking "the camp of God's people". Would you agree that is talking about physical fire physically killing people on the earth?

Then, right after that (not a thousand years later) occurs we see a description of Satan being cast into the lake of fire followed by the judgment with death and Hades and "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life" being "thrown into the lake of fire", which is called "the second death". That's not a description of physical fire coming down from heaven to physically destroy people, right? So, that is clearly talking about something different than verse 9 is talking about. Do you agree or not? If not, why not?

We were not talking about the dead. We were talking about the beast and FP tossed alive into the LOF a thousand years before Satan was loosed. Satan was bound and these 2 beings were cast alive into the LOF.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Then Satan was bound in the pit for a thousand years. All three showed up at the battle of Armageddon. Two where cast alive into the LOF. One was bound in the pit for 1000 years.

They were together, because:

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

We know John was talking about Satan, not a literal dragon. The dragon was not loosed after the thousand years, Satan was. Do you deny this trio was defeated at Armageddon? Even though it says two of them were cast alive into the LOF, and one was bound for a thousand years.

 

[Keraz]

all you have done is say "Ephraim is Britain"

Who else fulfils Genesis 48:17-19 and Exodus 33:13-17 ....the myriads of Ephraim and the multitude of Manasseh?
Obviously not the Jews.

Can you prove from this text is speaking of events post Jesus' second coming?

What is Prophesied there, will happen before Jesus Returns. Proved by how His people, the faithful Christians will know the Lord by His actions - not by His Presence. Ezekiel 38L23,,,,,then you will know I am the Lord.
As it is today, but the difference is: then, we Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, will all be living in the holy Land. John sees us there; Revelation 7_9

So obvious - others can join in as well if they so desire.

Yes; you are displaying your bias and lack of knowledge about who are the real Israelites of God.
Others see it and know it is a waste of time to argue with people; you and I, who have very strong beliefs of what God has planned for His people and for Judah.

 

[face2face]

Who else fulfils Genesis 48:17-19 and Exodus 33:13-17 ....the myriads of Ephraim and the multitude of Manasseh?
Obviously not the Jews.

Keraz, I must say you have a terrible way of presenting your arguments - just quoting a section of Scripture and making a blanket statement puts you in a very poor light!

Just quietly - someone sold you a

Now lets look at the section you quoted:

17 When Joseph saw his father placing his right hand on Ephraim’s head he was displeased; so he took hold of his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 Joseph said to him, “No, my father, this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.”

19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He too will become a people, and he too will become great. Nevertheless, his younger brother will be greater than he, and his descendants will become a group (fulness or mulititude) of nations.”

Melo = fulness, that which fills

In this chapter the word "multitude" occurs 3 times (See verses. 4,16,19 PLEASE DO! ), but on each occasion, a different Hebrew word is used. Here it is the word melo signifying fulness. The phrase fulness of nations suggests that Ephraim would not only represent a tribe, but also a nation made up of other tribes or nations. This was fulfilled later when all the northern tribes were classified under the general term of Ephraim. The remarkable language of this blessing therefore anticipated the division that ultimately took place between Ephraim in the north and Judah in the south.

How could you ever think Israel could become a Gentile Nation is beyond me, though it does show me the level of deception (and spell) you are under. Whoever taught you this, NEVER go to them for instruction again!

What is Prophesied there, will happen before Jesus Returns. Proved by how His people, the faithful Christians will know the Lord by His actions - not by His Presence. Ezekiel 38L23,,,,,then you will know I am the Lord.
As it is today, but the difference is: then, we Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, will all be living in the holy Land. John sees us there; Revelation 7_9

Yes; you are displaying your bias and lack of knowledge about who are the real Israelites of God.
Others see it and know it is a waste of time to argue with people; you and I, who have very strong beliefs of what God has planned for His people and for Judah.

I'm thankful you gave the questions a go (said sincerley)

I will highlight the areas you need to focus on:

14 “Return, faithless people,” declares the Lord, “for I am your husband. I will choose you—one from a town and two from a clan—and bring you to Zion.

So here God is indicating a purging of His people through the Nations, whereby only a remnenet will return to the Land.

15 Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding.

Clearly not natural Jews, as they cannot teach the Gospe.l therefore we must have Christians after Gods own heart who know the truth and can assit in writing the New Covenant on their hearts.

16 In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the Lord, “people will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.

The reason the Ark of Covenant will no longer remembered is due to them having the Living Ark being in their midst! - no need to long for a wooden box, when they have the Lord Jesus Christ, their King in their midst!

17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.

Isaiah teaches exactly the same prophecy of a time when the Nations will bring offerings to Jerusalem - where the Kingdom of Israel and its King will be centred. The prophecy of the two sticks now in the hand of Jesus unifying them together.

It's the story of Jacob watching the bringing together of Judah & Joseph in Egypt but on a national scale! The weeping that will take place with Christ reveals the scar in his hands and the piercing in his side will cause them and the world to weep as though they have lost an only son.

Every single word in that prophecy is for the Jews except for the ministers of God's choosing who will lead them in knowledge and understanding.

You need to forget what you think you know and heed to Word of God as its been preserved firstly for its first audience and secondly that we might gain instruction and understanding for these end times.

F2F

Note: if you need to PM me anytime feel free! Happy to help.

 

[Keraz]

Every single word in that prophecy is for the Jews

Here is more Prophesies, ones that tell of their fate:
Amos 2:4-5 I will send fire to destroy Judah......
Isaiah 22:14 Judah will never repent; they will die for their wickedness
Jeremiah 17:1-4 The sins of Judah are recorded with an iron stylus. .....the fire of My anger will burn forever.
Isaiah 29:1-Woe betide Jerusalem; I will make her My fire altar. Only a remnant will survive by hiding underground.
Ezekiel 21:1-16 .....My Sword of slaughter will make away with both the righteous and the wicked from the Negev, Northward.
Jeremiah 14:10-13 Judah strays from Me....I will make an end to them. Do not pray for the wellbeing of the Jews.....
There are many more Prophesies proving that the Jews no longer have any claim to being Gods people.

Realize that the adulation of the Jews by many people, is based on their belief of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory. - In this thinking Judah, the Jews on earth during the Great Tribulation and them, the Christians in heaven and returning with Jesus.
This belief is unscriptural and cannot happen.
We must endure until the end and only those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord, will be with Him for the Millennium.

 

[face2face]

Amos 2:4-5 I will send fire to destroy Judah......

Wow, you did it again Keraz, cherry picked half the story!..it's weird how you claim natural Israel is the context all God's judgements then switch it up with the Christians when its favorable blessings - that's rather funny.

Read the calling of the Lord in Amos chapter 5 "seek me and live!"

What I love about God is how he sends His people warnings and in many instances he makes up His mind to act against them with terrible punishments, so great it is said "how can Jacob stand being so small!" but then as you know He always lets them know He has redemptive plans for them.

The Restoration of Israel (Amos 9)

“In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen and repair its breaches, and raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old, 12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by my name,” declares the Lord who does this. 13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when the plowman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it. 14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the Lord your God. Am 9:11 - end.

Like everything we have discussed - God has done all this before so it's odd you dont believe He can do it again.

Like the JW's who once held truth concerning the restoration of Israel they decided to abandon these early beliefs for a more Christianized interpretation. As I have shown you its a mystery which is why so few believe!

F2F

 

[Ghada]

It really appears to me that there are 2 stages here. 1st, the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven. That is when he "bring with him those who have fallen asleep in him." 2nd, Jesus gathers his elect from the four winds, which sounds very much like a gathering to the clouds. And indeed Paul confirms that it is a gathering to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

In John 14, He says He comes for His church. In Rev 19, the Bible says Jesus comes out of heaven with His armies of angels to return to earth for His church.

Prophecies of His return include both saints (Jude) and angels (2 Thess 1).

The first group our out of heaven, and the 2nd group are with clouds in the air.

So we have a 2 step process, Christ appearing with his departed saints, and then his gathering those still alive to the clouds.

Since all the saints will rise together to meet with the Lord in the air, then there is no location difference between the dead rising first and them alive being changed. Them alive and changed will rise with them resurrected from the dead on earth.

The saints in God's presence now, will enter into their resurrected bodies on earth. That is further described as the the Spirit of life entering into the dead bodies of the two witnesses. And then they and the changed living saints will all rise up to the Lord at the same time.

The armies of angels will depart from heaven with the Lord. The saints will then meet Him with clouds in the air, and then the Lord and all His armies of angels and saints will descend to the earth to make war on earth.

The angels come into the air with Him from heaven. The saints return with Him from the air to the earth.

The agnels continue coming down to earth from heaven. The saints first rise up into the air, and then come down with Him to the earth.

However, we are told in Acts 1 that he is coming again in the same way he left. That means the appearance of the Son of Man in the clouds must be followed by his appearance on earth. In Zechariah 14, we read that it will be on the Mt. of Olives, a literal place on earth.

True. He will appear from heaven with clouds in the air, even as the cloud recieved Him ascending into the air from earth.

Dan 7:13 shows His ascension from earth, and Dan 7:22 shows His descension back to earth.

Zech 14.4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

2 Sam 15 tells the story how David, who suffered a conspiracy in Jerusalem, left the city and went up on the Mt. of Olives. Interestingly, David expresses hope that God will allow him to return later, to visit Jerusalem again and see the place where the ark is to be.

Interesting observation. David's desire to return to Jerusalem, where Zadok is taking the ark back to, combined with coming to the earth with the Lord to establish His house and kingdom in Jerusalem, with the ark.

We know God took and has the ark with Him in heaven from Rev 11.

 

[Keraz]

Like everything we have discussed - God has done all this before so it's odd you dont believe He can do it again.

Of course God can restore an ethnic group, but that is not what we are told will happen. Galatians 3:26-29 and Ephesians 2:11-18, make it quite clear the ethnicity is not the criteria for a person to be one of God's people.
The people who will be present in all of the holy land before Jesus Returns, will be from every tribe, race, nation and language. Rev 7:9

Prophecies of His return include both saints (Jude) and angels (2 Thess 1).

The first group our out of heaven, and the 2nd group are with clouds in the air.

Welcome Ghada! From Damascus; very interesting and mentioned in the Bible many times.

Your idea that both angels and Christians will Return with Jesus, is incorrect. The word 'hagios' can be translated as saints or angels and as there is no Bible verse that says God will take humans to heaven before Jesus Returns, then all reference to 'saints' is wrongly translated.

We know God took and has the ark with Him in heaven from Rev 11.

Actually the original ark of the Covenant remains hidden on earth where Jeremiah placed it. 2 Maccabees 2:4-8
It will be placed in the new Temple, as described in Ezekiel 40 to 46

 

[face2face]

Of course God can restore an ethnic group, but that is not what we are told will happen. Galatians 3:26-29 and Ephesians 2:11-18, make it quite clear the ethnicity is not the criteria for a person to be one of God's people.

That is true Keraz, though the return of Christ will usher in the end of the Gentile age and the establishment of the Kingdom of God will begin with Israel.

Your vision of how that Kingdom begins is not as the Word portrays.

Just make my point clear, talk to me about the last Gentile triumph over Jerusalem from Zechariah 14.

Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered.

Now be careful with your answer Keraz as verse 5 looms heavily in how you approach this prophecy.

Why does Christ save Jerusalem first?
What does this mean for the Gentile nations?
What will Christs focus be when he returns?
How will he unify the house of Israel? (we have already been over this!)

Also, I noticed your Ephraim becoming Israel argument lost momentum - I'm hoping you have studied for yourself and seen that erroneous teaching?

BTW - its good to hear from you again.

F2F

 

[Keraz]

Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered.

I believe that Zechariah 14:1-2 is a prophecy about when the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt conquers the holy people of God, then living in all of the holy Land. 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. Daniel 7:23=25 and Revelation 13:5-8
Revelation 12 is also about this time and the Christian peoples will be divided into 2 groups; half of them will be taken to the place of safety, the other half must remain, as Daniel 11:32 describes.

Why does Christ save Jerusalem first?

He only saves them at His Return, 3 1/2 years later. Then; He sends His angels to bring back those kept safe in a distant location.
Many of those who must remain will be killed for their faith. It is them whose souls Jesus brings with Him and resurrects them back to mortal life. Revelation 20:4

What does this mean for the Gentile nations?

When Jesus Returns, ALL of the ungodly and wicked peoples will be destroyed. Only the righteous, faithful Christians who have proved their trust in Him, will go into the Millennium.

What will Christs focus be when he returns?

Gathering His faithful people to Himself and assigning the tasks to those worthy. Revelation 5:9-10, Revelation 29:6b

How will he unify the house of Israel?

All those people who are Overcomers for God, are true Israelites.
That most of them will be actual descendants of Jacob, via the ten Northern tribes, is Gods secret and we do not need to be concerned with it.

 

[Ghada]

Welcome Ghada! From Damascus; very interesting and mentioned in the Bible many times.

Thanks much, but I am an American immigrant now, though I do visit my parents in Damascus every year. Or try to. I believe I will be this fall. Hopefully.

Your idea that both angels and Christians will Return with Jesus, is incorrect. The word 'hagios' can be translated as saints or angels

I'll keep the translation of saints as grammatically and doctrinally correct.

Unfortunately your effort to apply Jude's use of hagios for angels, is disingenuous for the sake of your own personal teaching. Every time in the NT, when Hagios stands alone, it is for the saints of God. When it is applied to angels, it is added alongside the angels: the holy angels.

and as there is no Bible verse that says God will take humans to heaven before Jesus Returns, then all reference to 'saints' is wrongly translated.

True. He commands them into the air, and then they go down to earth a second time with Him and His armies of holy angels come out of heaven.

Actually the original ark of the Covenant remains hidden on earth where Jeremiah placed it. 2 Maccabees 2:4-8

Sorry friend. I only go by the Bible for accurate truth of God.

If you're going to bring in other books, no matter how interesting they may be, then we're not going to be discussing doctrine and prophecy of Christ.

It will be placed in the new Temple, as described in Ezekiel 40 to 46

I agree. The Lord will likely do so Himself, or one of His resurrected saints or holy angels, by bringing it down out of heaven, where it now is. The door to the temple in Rev 11 is opened in heaven after the 2nd coming and resurrection of the church and two witnesses into the air.

 

[Keraz]

Thanks much, but I am an American immigrant now, though I do visit my parents in Damascus every year. Or try to. I believe I will be this fall. Hopefully.

My advice is to keep well away from the Middle East region. Isaiah 17:1-2 is just one of the many Prophesies of that area being cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:43

I'll keep the translation of saints as grammatically and doctrinally correct.

But the best descriptions about the glorious Return; Matthew 24:29-51 and Revelation 19:11-16, do not say any humans will Return with Jesus. As we are told in Revelation 20:4, the only things He will bring with Him , will be the souls of the martyrs killed during the Great Trib.
Also our rewards; Matthew 16:27

You make a Biblical anomaly by saying the saints will Return with Jesus. Certainly not living Christians, as nowhere is it prophesied for them to go to heaven first.

He commands them into the air, and then they go down to earth a second time with Him and His armies of holy angels come out of heaven.

Both Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17, say we Christians will be with the Lord after He has arrived. We do not join the angel armies.

Sorry friend. I only go by the Bible for accurate truth of God.

Good, But it is clear that a new Temple will be built; dedicated to God. His Shekinah glory will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-4.
I believe the ancient Ark and the Temple furnishings will be placed in it. Before Jesus Returns.

 

[Ghada]

My advice is to keep well away from the Middle East region. Isaiah 17:1-2 is just one of the many Prophesies of that area being cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 32:43

This sounds like doctrine that annuls commandments of God. I'll continue to honor my mother and father by visiting them as I can.

This is why trying to apply prophesy to current events is so haphazard and unadvised. People can make up whatever they want about Iran's proxy attacks into Syria and ISIS, but it didn't keep me from Damascus with my parents when we could here the bombs outside the city.

The only thing I care about before our Lord's return, is if another great antichrist rises up to deceive us into false Christian religion. Otherwise, wars and rumors of wars have been going on since Cain killed Abel.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus here is saying so what else is new. In matters of prophecy, such things are just more of the same old same old. They can kill our body, but not our soul. So, so what? Thanks for sending me to heaven. Like they said in the army. What? You want to live forever?

But the best descriptions about the glorious Return; Matthew 24:29-51 and Revelation 19:11-16, do not say any humans will Return with Jesus.

Only armies of angels with accompany Him out of heaven, and only raptures saints will join them and accompany Him from the air to the earth.

I've made this argument once already, and you care nothing for it. I don't just keep repeating myself and argue for argument's sake.

As we are told in Revelation 20:4, the only things He will bring with Him , will be the souls of the martyrs killed during the Great Trib.
Also our rewards; Matthew 16:27

This is how teaching things of our own leads to confusion and contradiction. You're trying to say the martyred souls are not human. What? Are they whisps of the air that He carries in a bag? That sounds like the Urn of Whispering Warriors in Kung Fu Panda.

You make a Biblical anomaly by saying the saints will Return with Jesus. Certainly not living Christians, as nowhere is it prophesied for them to go to heaven first.

No, I make a Biblical translation that all translations make, and no translation but yours ever says hagios alone is interpreted as angels. You know the argument is true, but your own teaching forbids any bit of correction.

You also appear to be misreading me, in order to have me say something different. I'll try once more. The armies of angels come out of heaven with the Lord. The souls asleep in Christ enter by the Spirit of life into their resurrected bodies from the grave. And then with the saints alive and changed ascend to meet the Lord in the air.

And then the Lord and His resurrected and changed saints descend back to earth with the Lord from the air.

The Lord's second coming begins with His holy angels out of heaven. His second standing on the ground is with His raptured saints together. Which also happens to be their second coming to the earth, in the likeness of His resurrection.

God is the master of simplicity in peace and war. He comes again for all His saints, whether dead or alive, and He lands again with all His raptured saints forevermore alive.

Both Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17, say we Christians will be with the Lord after He has arrived. We do not join the angel armies.

Correct. In the air, where His armies of angels are not only still with Him out of heaven, but also are the raptured saints' escorts from the four winds, to all gather around Him. Reason says that will be right above all Judea. Reason would also say that is why His enemies will gather their armies together around Armageddon, in order to make war with the Lamb in the air.

Good, But it is clear that a new Temple will be built; dedicated to God. His Shekinah glory will come into it. Ezekiel 43:1-4.

True, and prophecy also says in Zech 6 the BRANCH Himself and others from afar will come to join in building it for His heavenly kingdom on earth.

I believe the ancient Ark and the Temple furnishings will be placed in it. Before Jesus Returns.

Not possible, since the resurrected Lord Himself will build it for Himself.

Also, I have no concept of the Lord ever placing anything of His own in the temples of men, that are made with unclean and blasphemous hands.

Once again, the doctrine of Christ must be adhered to in any interpretation of His prophecy. I also mentioned this to you before, but that apparently is not something you want to bind your prophecies to.