The Son of Man returns with and for his people

[Timtofly]

The belief of a general restoration of Jewish Israel, is wrong and is never said to happen in the Bible. The Jews still, after nearly 2000 years; reject Jesus. Why should God redeem them? Their fate is clearly stated; Isaiah 22:14 and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

The remnant that survives are redeemed. The redeemed are the restoration of all of Israel. Revelation 7 lists the 12 tribes that are restored as a full and complete nation. That is not the church. The church received Salvation through faith.

God separates Israel as sheep from the goats. The sheep are the redeemed remnant. Why should God redeem them? Because they are the nation of Israel that repopulate the nation for a thousand years. Isaiah 65:

"I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;"

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

Jesus does not just pick sheep currently gathered on their own in modern Israel. Jesus gathers all the lost tribes out of every nation across the whole earth. Most of them tossed into the LOF as goats, but gathered nonetheless. Matthew 25:31-46

There is no verse concerning the Second Coming that states all of Israel since Abraham will be brought back to live on the earth. Nor is there a verse that claims the church has to wait in death until after the thousand years are over. The church has been physically enjoying Paradise since the Cross whether any one accepts that or not. No one alive on earth can nor has prevented the physical resurrection to happen first for those in Christ.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

Paul never said they have to wait for thousands of years until the GWT judgment. If Paul could not prevent them when he was alive, what makes you think you can prevent them today?

 

[Keraz]

God separates Israel as sheep from the goats. The sheep are the redeemed remnant. Why should God redeem them? Because they are the nation of Israel that repopulate the nation for a thousand years

You seem to believe that the current Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel. This is wrong; in fact their claim to be Israel is false.

Do you not realize that anyone can make that claim? Such an assertion doesn't mean its true. Even in Jesus time, many Edomites infiltrated Judah, King Herod was one of them. Them in the 14th Century the entire Khazak peoples converted to Judaism. Now many wannabe Jews , like the Mizoram Indians and the Beta Ethiopians, claim Israeli citizenship.
None of them, plus all the Israelis; can really prove their ancestry from Judah or Jacob.

Believing that the apostate and Jesus hating Jews today are the real Israelites of God, is like believing Clark Kent was Superman.

 

[Timtofly]

What was your reason for posting this exactly? Did you expect me to determine that by reading your mind?

You complain I give my opinion. You complain when I provide Scripture. In fact you have complained I never provide Scripture.

I thought we were talking about where he is bound? We were talking about where the angel who comes from heaven goes to when he binds Satan, right? You were saying it's the earth, right? Or are you only talking about where he is loosed? You're hard to follow. Of course he is on the earth when he is loosed, as Revelation 20:7-9 indicates. We all agree on that. But, where do you think he is when he is bound?

I posted those verses to show you where my opinion comes from. The pit is described throughout Scripture. Numbers 16:29-33

"If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation."

Was this literal or symbolic?

Job 17:16

"They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust."

Job 33:27-30

"He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light. Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living."

Psalm 30:3

"O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit."

Proverbs 1:12

"Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:"

Isaiah 14:7-20

"The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned."

Ezekiel 26:20

"When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;"

Ezekiel 31:16

"I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth."

Revelation 9:1-5

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Do you think Moses set the precedent that the pit was a literal place, even if part of symbolic narrative? What is the symbolism of the pit, other than a literal pit?

Of course we are talking about Satan bound in a pit. Is Scripture not plain enough where this pit is located?

Those verses describe Satan as just as much a part of this battle at Armageddon as the beast and the FP. Are they not literal? Are the armies killed, not literal humans? Are they not literally on the earth when killed? Why do you get that Satan is loosed upon the earth, but fail to see that the beast and FP are just as literal and on the earth as Satan when Satan is bound?

How can the beast and FP be part of those consumed by fire in Revelation 20:9?

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Jesus put it this way: Matthew 10:28

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Moses literally pointed out God could do a new thing, although the Flood took them all to the pit as well. God destroyed Korah and those men, and their whole families, body and soul directly into the pit. Now we don't think of sheol and the grave as a physical place where the body can last. But Jesus did. Satan being an angel/star should have no problem remaining in sheol in his natural state. Those angels have been there in the pit for almost 6,000 years in their natural physical state as stars. That is if you think science has figured out the natural physical state of a star. You all think the term star is just symbolic. Then you accept science or man's wisdom to give you a physical explanation for this spiritual phenomenon. At least you seem to separate the physical from the spiritual in your understanding. The angels produce light. What their physical makeup is, seems to be an educated guess.

Certainly what science accepts as the physical makeup of a star should have no issues retaining physical form in the alleged core of the earth, which is also similar in structure and makeup. Do we understand that even the image of God revealed by Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration allowed Jesus to shine as bright as the sun. That would be our own physical makeup when we put on the spirit, and are glorified. Did Jesus turn into a ball of gas, or just had the ability to shine like the sun?

You don't see angels as balls of gas as science would describe a star. You see them as spiritual beings producing the light we call a star, or not. If the angels are not the stars are you saying each angel lives in each physical star? How does that make sense?

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun;"

Is the sun a literal angel? Is the sun a star? Or is there just an angel living in the sun?

Satan was described as the morning star. Yet he was no longer allowed to be the morning star. His position as a star was revoked. The same with a third of the stars that rebelled with him. How does that change the fact they were at one time literal stars in the sky? Christians have let science dictate our interpretation of Scripture. But all that knowledge will be burned up at the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

You seem to believe that the current Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel. This is wrong; in fact their claim to be Israel is false.

Do you not realize that anyone can make that claim? Such an assertion doesn't mean its true. Even in Jesus time, many Edomites infiltrated Judah, King Herod was one of them. Them in the 14th Century the entire Khazak peoples converted to Judaism. Now many wannabe Jews , like the Mizoram Indians and the Beta Ethiopians, claim Israeli citizenship.
None of them, plus all the Israelis; can really prove their ancestry from Judah or Jacob.

Believing that the apostate and Jesus hating Jews today are the real Israelites of God, is like believing Clark Kent was Superman.

Not what I posted.

I said God reserves the right to redeem out of Israel all across the earth whom He chooses to redeem.

Science is not God's method of picking and choosing. Pretty sure God knows who is who.

When God divided the nations up by language, do you think He lined them all up and asked them individually, who wanted to be whom?

Again, did God let them retain their family structure, or did He blend them all into mixed combinations?

 

[face2face]

You seem to believe that the current Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel. This is wrong; in fact their claim to be Israel is false.

This is garbage...no other way to put it really.

 

[face2face]

Believing that the apostate and Jesus hating Jews today are the real Israelites of God, is like believing Clark Kent was Superman.

So here it the reality of your statement Keraz - because you Christianize the OT prophecies you are blind to what He has planned for these Jesus hating Jews; if you had the humility to inquire and be given the immortality to witness the next phase in their correction in righteousness you wouldn't be making such comments.

Do me a favor, read Jeremiah chapter 3 and ask yourself where is Israels future sufferings coming from? How can you prove without doubt this is speaking to the time of Christ's return.

I can help if you find those two questions difficult.

F2F

 

[ewq1938]

Believing that the apostate and Jesus hating Jews today are the real Israelites of God, is like believing Clark Kent was Superman.

...like believing Clark Kent was Batman.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You complain I give my opinion. You complain when I provide Scripture. In fact you have complained I never provide Scripture.

No, I was complaining that you posted a scripture without giving any indcation as to why you posted it. So, all I could do was guess. Imagine if all we did was quote scripture back and forth. Do you think that would be a fruitful discussion when we're left to guess as to why the other person quoted the scripture and how they interpret it?

You rarely have provided scripture in the past. I would never complain that you provide scripture, so you have once again misrepresented me. I often disagree with your interpretations of scripture, but I would never complain about you quoting scripture that you believe supports your views. I'm glad you have apparently decided to do it more often now. Your words alone don't amount to much without the backing of scripture.

I posted those verses to show you where my opinion comes from. The pit is described throughout Scripture. Numbers 16:29-33

"If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me. But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation."

Was this literal or symbolic?

Literal, but it's not talking about the bottomless pit/abyss there. The abyss/bottomless pit is always associated with spiritual entities like Satan and the locusts who symbolically represent fallen angels (Revelation 9), not human beings. What that passage is talking about is men dying but being pulled under the ground which is where the bodies of the dead are buried. That's it. It's only talking about them being pulled underground. That is not where the bottomless pit/abyss is.

With that said, I do appreciate your effort to interpret scripture with scripture here. Unfortunately, you are trying to relate scriptures together that are not directly related.

Job 17:16

"They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust."

Same thing here. This is just talking about being buried underground (under the surface of the earth which is where the bodies of dead people go. This has nothing to do with the bottomless pit/abyss referenced in Revelation.

Job 33:27-30

"He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light. Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living."

Translations vary on this one, so they don't all refer to man's soul from going into the pit, but rather man himself going into the pit. So, this could once again be simply referring to someone dying and being buried under the earth. If it is talking about a man's soul going to the pit, then it would be talking about going to the pit of hell. As I said earlier, the bottomless pit/abyss is a place where spirit beings like Satan and his angels are said to be, not human beings.

Psalm 30:3

"O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit."

See my comment on Job 33:27-30.

I'm going to stop here as far as commenting on all these verses you referenced is concerned because I've already spent enough time on that. You clearly are misinterpreting all of these verses and are relating verses that are talking about the place where dead bodies go (underground) or the place where the souls of unbelievers go when they die (Hades/hell) and associating them with the bottomless pit/abyss instead. But the bottomless pit/abyss is neither the place where bodies are buried nor is it Hades/hell.

Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This is clearly symbolic as angels cannot be literally chained up. Not to mention the fact that despite them being reserved in everlasting chains long ago it didn't prevent them from being active. You should see a verse like this and realize that a description of the dragon, Satan, being chained up should not be taken literally.

Do you think Moses set the precedent that the pit was a literal place, even if part of symbolic narrative? What is the symbolism of the pit, other than a literal pit?

I don't know what you're talking about here. Can you explain?

Of course we are talking about Satan bound in a pit. Is Scripture not plain enough where this pit is located?

It's plain enough to me that your approach to interpreting scripture is very flawed. You just assume that any reference to a pit has to be a reference to the bottomless pit. As if a word can only have one meaning. That is not a wise approach to interpreting scripture.

Those verses describe Satan as just as much a part of this battle at Armageddon as the beast and the FP. Are they not literal?

No, it's not a literal beast. You think it is? The false prophet is also called the second beast and it's not meant to be taken literally. either. Think about it. It talks about them being cast into the lake of fire. That makes them literal? If so, does that mean the casting of death and Hades into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14) should be taken literally as well?

Are the armies killed, not literal humans?

Yes, they are.

Are they not literally on the earth when killed?

Yeah. So? Are you getting to a point here?

Why do you get that Satan is loosed upon the earth, but fail to see that the beast and FP are just as literal and on the earth as Satan when Satan is bound?

Because that isn't true. Notice that it specifies exactly what the dragon represents. Satan. But, it doesn't do that in regards to the beast and false prophet. Why not? Because they don't represent literal beings like the dragon does.

How can the beast and FP be part of those consumed by fire in Revelation 20:9?

Who says they are? It talks about them being cast into the lake of fire, not being consumed by physical fire. Those are different things.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

What was the reason you quoted this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Moses literally pointed out God could do a new thing, although the Flood took them all to the pit as well. God destroyed Korah and those men, and their whole families, body and soul directly into the pit. Now we don't think of sheol and the grave as a physical place where the body can last. But Jesus did.

You are very confused. You are trying to equate Sheol with the bottomless pit? That is wrong. They are not the same. Also, Sheol and the grave are not the same. The grave is simply anywhere under the ground where people's dead bodies are buried. That's not where people's souls are. Your apparent inability to differentiate between a person's body and soul is the apparent cause of at least some of your confusion. But, you also are not understanding that the bottomless pit/abyss is not a place where human beings go.

Satan being an angel/star should have no problem remaining in sheol in his natural state. Those angels have been there in the pit for almost 6,000 years in their natural physical state as stars.

Okay, now you've gone off the deep end. When it talks about the fallen angels being reserved in everlasting chains, it's talking about all of them. Yet, they were still active despite being reserved in everlasting chains. So, you are missing the symbolism there. Also, you trying to say that angels "in their natural physical state as stars" is the most ridiculous thing imaginable for someone to believe. It is utter nonsense.

That is if you think science has figured out the natural physical state of a star.

It's not that hard to figure out. The sun is a star and is not something that is not able to be studied. Stars are not angels. That is completely ludicrous. It is impossible to take you seriously when you believe things like this. It's no wonder that you can't tell the difference between the place where dead bodies go, the place where the souls of dead people go, and the bottomless pit/abyss when you can't even understand that angels are not literal stars. Goodness sakes, that is the most ridiculous thing that anyone could possibly believe.

You all think the term star is just symbolic.

In Revelation it clearly is.

Revelation 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. 19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Do you think that Jesus was literally holding seven stars in his right hand? That is clearly symbolic and we're specifically told what it symbolizes: the angels of the seven churches.

Then you accept science or man's wisdom to give you a physical explanation for this spiritual phenomenon.

LOL. I can see the sun, which is a star. That's no angel, buddy. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

At least you seem to separate the physical from the spiritual in your understanding. The angels produce light. What their physical makeup is, seems to be an educated guess.

They are not physical beings, they are spirit beings. Where do you get your ideas like this from, anyway? Certainly not from scripture.

Certainly what science accepts as the physical makeup of a star should have no issues retaining physical form in the alleged core of the earth, which is also similar in structure and makeup. Do we understand that even the image of God revealed by Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration allowed Jesus to shine as bright as the sun. That would be our own physical makeup when we put on the spirit, and are glorified. Did Jesus turn into a ball of gas, or just had the ability to shine like the sun?

You don't see angels as balls of gas as science would describe a star. You see them as spiritual beings producing the light we call a star, or not. If the angels are not the stars are you saying each angel lives in each physical star? How does that make sense?

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun;"

Is the sun a literal angel? Is the sun a star? Or is there just an angel living in the sun?

Satan was described as the morning star. Yet he was no longer allowed to be the morning star. His position as a star was revoked. The same with a third of the stars that rebelled with him. How does that change the fact they were at one time literal stars in the sky? Christians have let science dictate our interpretation of Scripture. But all that knowledge will be burned up at the Second Coming.

Ask God for the wisdom to discern the difference between literal and symbolic text. Right now, you are very lacking in that ability.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So here it the reality of your statement Keraz - because you Christianize the OT prophecies you are blind to what He has planned for these Jesus hating Jews; if you had the humility to inquire and be given the immortality to witness the next phase in their correction in righteousness you wouldn't be making such comments.

Do me a favor, read Jeremiah chapter 3 and ask yourself where is Israels future sufferings coming from? How can you prove without doubt this is speaking to the time of Christ's return.

I can help if you find those two questions difficult.

F2F

Do you have a problem with Paul Christianizing the OT prophecies by saying that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed apply to Jesus and those who belong to Jesus (Galatians 3:16-29)? Do you have a problem with Paul Christianizing the OT prophecies about the inheritance of Israel by saying that Gentile believers are "fellowheirs" of their inheritance (Ephesians 3:1-6)? Do you find Judaism to be a more appealing religion than Christianity?

 

[face2face]

Do you have a problem with Paul Christianizing the OT prophecies by saying that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed apply to Jesus and those who belong to Jesus (Galatians 3:16-29)?

Not at all if the subject matter is the promises made to the Fathers.

Do you have a problem with Paul Christianizing the OT prophecies about the inheritance of Israel by saying that Gentile believers are "fellowheirs" of their inheritance (Ephesians 3:1-6)?

No, providing the context of such prophecies is directed at the Gentiles coming into the Hope of Israel - why don't you read Isaiah 56?? Maybe then you can direct your fruitless energies to sections of the Bible that are relevant to us!

Do you find Judaism to be a more appealing religion than Christianity?

No, Judaism is finished - maybe you should read the posts more accurately, then you won't be guilty of making unfounded leaps of logic like the above.

 

[face2face]

But yes, the Son of Man is returning for his people but not in a way you all might believe.

And I (God) will give you (Israel) pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. Jeremiah 3:15

If only you knew the true hope of Israel as Paul & Jeremiah did!

F2F

 

[Keraz]

If only you knew the true hope of Israel as Paul & Jeremiah did!

Time for you to understand God's plan for those who rejected His Son:
The Judgement of Judah:

Over the 20 centuries since the time of Jesus Christ’s first coming to earth, the Jewish people have suffered terrible persecutions, pogroms and discrimination.
This fulfils several prophecies – that the Jews will be a curse and objects of derision in the world.

Jeremiah 17:1-4 The sins of Judah are recorded on their hearts, the fire of My anger will burn forever.

Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. I shall draw My sword to cut off everyone from South to North.
I will make away with both the righteous and wicked, My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev northward. All courage will fail – it will surely take place.

Ezekiel 21:10-14 A sword is sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning.
Should we rejoice in the sceptre of Judah? No, the sword condemns the Rod of My Son. Cry and wail for it falls on My people – all your rulers will be killed.
Testing will surely come – what if the sceptre of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter.

Verse 14 is highly significant, as it foretells three judgements of the Jewish people:

1/ The Babylonian conquest in 585BC.
2/ The revolt against the Romans, Maccabees to AD 70, when millions were killed.
3/ The final gathering and judgement of the Jewish people in the Land.

At the trial of Jesus, the Jews said in; Matthew 27:25 His blood be on us and our children. In the parable of the King and his servants, Luke 19:14 ..his subjects hated him and said “We don’t want this man to be our King “

Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine that did not want Me for a King, bring them here ( into the Land, as in 1948 ) and slaughter them in My presence.

Matthew 21:38-43 The parable of the vineyard - The wicked tenants said; This is the Heir, come – let us kill him and get the inheritance. The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. He will then rent the vineyard to righteous tenants.

Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, ( Jews )
and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit. (Faithful Christians)

Ezekiel 16:35-62 The Lord is saying how He rescued and tended Judah, but her depraved conduct surpassed even that of her sisters, Samaria ( Israel ) and Sodom
Therefore, you prostitute, because of your brazen excesses, I shall assemble all those around you - whom you loved. I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder.

When I hand you over to them, they will strip you naked. They will punish you with stones and swords, burn down your houses and execute judgement in the sight of many women. You surpassed the sins of your sisters, Samaria and Sodom.

Judah, judged and punished, in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal devastation of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 22:1-14

Jeremiah 8:3 The Lord says to the leaders of Judah; You will be as dung spread over the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27

Jeremiah 18:1-10 The Potter and the clay.
v6 House of Israel, I will remould you as a potter would a spoilt pot.
Israel, the Northern 10 tribes, are to be ‘remoulded’. Ezekiel 36:25-28 Into the Christian peoples.

Jeremiah 19:3 Proclaim to the leaders and citizens of Judah:
v11 I shall smash this people as an earthen vessel is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them.

In the land of Israel today, 42% of the Jewish population are secular ( atheist ) 25% believe in God, but do not actively worship Him and 12% practice Judaism, 8% are the ultra orthodox Haredi Jews. In all the amazing things that have happened to the Jews since 1948 – their resettlement, restored language and wars won, they still do not acknowledge Gods hand in their affairs. He has helped them, for the reason that they are a part of His originally chosen people, but their continued rejection of Jesus and their sinful ways will result in their being virtually wiped out on the Lord’s Day of wrath. Only a remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

The eventual restoration of a Jewish remnant, in their shame and humiliation. Ezekiel 16:63, Romans 9:27

Psalms 69:36 The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His name will live there. Psalm 37:7-40
Reference; Revised English bible, some verses abridged.

 

[Timtofly]

No, it's not a literal beast. You think it is? The false prophet is also called the second beast and it's not meant to be taken literally. either. Think about it. It talks about them being cast into the lake of fire. That makes them literal? If so, does that mean the casting of death and Hades into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14) should be taken literally as well?

I never said it was. I am sure one day you will explain who, but that is not the point. You claim the pit just means the grave, but Jesus pointed out that God can put human bodies into the pit. Seems you don't accept the pit is under the surface of the earth. Well a location is literal. We don't know what Death is yet. It was introduced into reality in conjunction with sheol. So far sheol has been the pit. The pit as in sheol will be cast into the LOF. The LOF is also introduced prior to Satan being bound. I accept Death is a seperate place like the sea of glass is a location separate from Paradise. You don't seem to make any distinction between anything in Scripture, and then accuse me of not seeing the difference between the grave and the pit. The grave is where the body is, but God can put a body in sheol. The soul is placed in the pit, and the pit is sheol. Is there a part that makes the pit bottomless, separate from the souls, where the angels and Satan reside? I don't think it necessary to argue that a soul went to the pit in every reference I quoted. Not just a body in a grave. A body is literal and physical. A soul is literal and spiritual. So saying something is spiritual does not make it any less literal.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

All punishment that is eternal seems not to be designed for the human soul. Yet most of humanity will end up there anyway. The fact these places are literal and distinct is that they serve a specific function at a specific time. They are not literal merely because they are in conjunction with other litetal things. The FP is the only literal human. The beast is not a literal beast nor a literal human. Satan is a literal being created as a star, appearing on earth in human form, or whatever form he is allowed to appear in. The dragon is not literal but the historical representation of 6 earthly kingdoms through time in opposition to the Nation of Israel. The same dragon is mentioned in chapter 12, 13, and 17. It is mentioned in chapter 16 referring to Satan and then 20 referring to Satan. The dragon was not bound, Satan was bound. One of the heads was representing Satan. Obviously Satan was instrumental in a third of the angels rebelling. Scripture implies he was part of these 6 historical kingdoms as well. The ten horns seem to be 10 future leaders of different nations during the Trumpets and Thunders who bring the rest of humanity together from ten areas of the earth. They are not historical kingdoms.

Either I take up space and put verses in. Or I just put verses in, and let you see the words that seem to be the contention. You have still avoided the fact Satan was on earth gathering these 10 nations with the help of ten humans, and along with the beast and FP show up at Armageddon a literal location for a literal battle on earth at a literal return of Jesus to the earth.

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

 

[face2face]

Time for you to understand God's plan for those who rejected His Son:
The Judgement of Judah:

Over the 20 centuries since the time of Jesus Christ’s first coming to earth, the Jewish people have suffered terrible persecutions, pogroms and discrimination.
This fulfils several prophecies – that the Jews will be a curse and objects of derision in the world.

Jeremiah 17:1-4 The sins of Judah are recorded on their hearts, the fire of My anger will burn forever.

Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. I shall draw My sword to cut off everyone from South to North.
I will make away with both the righteous and wicked, My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev northward. All courage will fail – it will surely take place.

Ezekiel 21:10-14 A sword is sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning.
Should we rejoice in the sceptre of Judah? No, the sword condemns the Rod of My Son. Cry and wail for it falls on My people – all your rulers will be killed.
Testing will surely come – what if the sceptre of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter.

Verse 14 is highly significant, as it foretells three judgements of the Jewish people:

1/ The Babylonian conquest in 585BC.
2/ The revolt against the Romans, Maccabees to AD 70, when millions were killed.
3/ The final gathering and judgement of the Jewish people in the Land.

At the trial of Jesus, the Jews said in; Matthew 27:25 His blood be on us and our children. In the parable of the King and his servants, Luke 19:14 ..his subjects hated him and said “We don’t want this man to be our King “

Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine that did not want Me for a King, bring them here ( into the Land, as in 1948 ) and slaughter them in My presence.

Matthew 21:38-43 The parable of the vineyard - The wicked tenants said; This is the Heir, come – let us kill him and get the inheritance. The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. He will then rent the vineyard to righteous tenants.

Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, ( Jews )
and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit. (Faithful Christians)

Ezekiel 16:35-62 The Lord is saying how He rescued and tended Judah, but her depraved conduct surpassed even that of her sisters, Samaria ( Israel ) and Sodom
Therefore, you prostitute, because of your brazen excesses, I shall assemble all those around you - whom you loved. I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder.

When I hand you over to them, they will strip you naked. They will punish you with stones and swords, burn down your houses and execute judgement in the sight of many women. You surpassed the sins of your sisters, Samaria and Sodom.

Judah, judged and punished, in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal devastation of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 22:1-14

Jeremiah 8:3 The Lord says to the leaders of Judah; You will be as dung spread over the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27

Jeremiah 18:1-10 The Potter and the clay.
v6 House of Israel, I will remould you as a potter would a spoilt pot.
Israel, the Northern 10 tribes, are to be ‘remoulded’. Ezekiel 36:25-28 Into the Christian peoples.

Jeremiah 19:3 Proclaim to the leaders and citizens of Judah:
v11 I shall smash this people as an earthen vessel is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them.

In the land of Israel today, 42% of the Jewish population are secular ( atheist ) 25% believe in God, but do not actively worship Him and 12% practice Judaism, 8% are the ultra orthodox Haredi Jews. In all the amazing things that have happened to the Jews since 1948 – their resettlement, restored language and wars won, they still do not acknowledge Gods hand in their affairs. He has helped them, for the reason that they are a part of His originally chosen people, but their continued rejection of Jesus and their sinful ways will result in their being virtually wiped out on the Lord’s Day of wrath. Only a remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

The eventual restoration of a Jewish remnant, in their shame and humiliation. Ezekiel 16:63, Romans 9:27

Psalms 69:36 The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His name will live there. Psalm 37:7-40
Reference; Revised English bible, some verses abridged.

Keraz,

You are cherry picking God's judgements, like focusing in on the Severity of God's character without mentioning His Goodness. However, I cannot disagree that Israel has and will continue to be judged, until God decides otherwise, and He will decide otherwise!

Take your Ezekiel 21 quote....try turning back a page and reading Ezek 20:30-44! If you are not able to tell the whole story, dont tell it at all.

 

[Timtofly]

Because that isn't true. Notice that it specifies exactly what the dragon represents. Satan. But, it doesn't do that in regards to the beast and false prophet. Why not? Because they don't represent literal beings like the dragon does.

They don't represent anything. They are two literal beings. One human and one a creation brought to life, a literal animated entity. I don't look at a dragon. I am looking at Satan, every time that dragon is mentioned. You are right that Satan is bound. But wrong saying that nothing is cast into the LOF. A human and this entity called the beast are literally cast into the LOF.

 

[face2face]

They don't represent anything. They are two literal beings. One human and one a creation brought to life, a literal animated entity. I don't look at a dragon. I am looking at Satan, every time that dragon is mentioned. You are right that Satan is bound. But wrong saying that nothing is cast into the LOF. A human and this entity called the beast ate literally cast into this LOF.

Tim, you need to understand what is bound - what is the symbol of the adversary in that prophecy?
Don't make the mistake of assuming its some supernatural fiery being!
Foolhardy.

 

[Timtofly]

Who says they are? It talks about them being cast into the lake of fire, not being consumed by physical fire. Those are different things.

We agree on something. Two seperate events separated by a thousand years, which is why you will object in the first place.

 

[face2face]

Time for you to understand God's plan for those who rejected His Son:
The Judgement of Judah:

Over the 20 centuries since the time of Jesus Christ’s first coming to earth, the Jewish people have suffered terrible persecutions, pogroms and discrimination.
This fulfils several prophecies – that the Jews will be a curse and objects of derision in the world.

Jeremiah 17:1-4 The sins of Judah are recorded on their hearts, the fire of My anger will burn forever.

Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. I shall draw My sword to cut off everyone from South to North.
I will make away with both the righteous and wicked, My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev northward. All courage will fail – it will surely take place.

Ezekiel 21:10-14 A sword is sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning.
Should we rejoice in the sceptre of Judah? No, the sword condemns the Rod of My Son. Cry and wail for it falls on My people – all your rulers will be killed.
Testing will surely come – what if the sceptre of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter.

Verse 14 is highly significant, as it foretells three judgements of the Jewish people:

1/ The Babylonian conquest in 585BC.
2/ The revolt against the Romans, Maccabees to AD 70, when millions were killed.
3/ The final gathering and judgement of the Jewish people in the Land.

At the trial of Jesus, the Jews said in; Matthew 27:25 His blood be on us and our children. In the parable of the King and his servants, Luke 19:14 ..his subjects hated him and said “We don’t want this man to be our King “

Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine that did not want Me for a King, bring them here ( into the Land, as in 1948 ) and slaughter them in My presence.

Matthew 21:38-43 The parable of the vineyard - The wicked tenants said; This is the Heir, come – let us kill him and get the inheritance. The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. He will then rent the vineyard to righteous tenants.

Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, ( Jews )
and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit. (Faithful Christians)

Ezekiel 16:35-62 The Lord is saying how He rescued and tended Judah, but her depraved conduct surpassed even that of her sisters, Samaria ( Israel ) and Sodom
Therefore, you prostitute, because of your brazen excesses, I shall assemble all those around you - whom you loved. I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder.

When I hand you over to them, they will strip you naked. They will punish you with stones and swords, burn down your houses and execute judgement in the sight of many women. You surpassed the sins of your sisters, Samaria and Sodom.

Judah, judged and punished, in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal devastation of the entire Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isaiah 22:1-14

Jeremiah 8:3 The Lord says to the leaders of Judah; You will be as dung spread over the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27

Jeremiah 18:1-10 The Potter and the clay.
v6 House of Israel, I will remould you as a potter would a spoilt pot.
Israel, the Northern 10 tribes, are to be ‘remoulded’. Ezekiel 36:25-28 Into the Christian peoples.

Jeremiah 19:3 Proclaim to the leaders and citizens of Judah:
v11 I shall smash this people as an earthen vessel is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them.

In the land of Israel today, 42% of the Jewish population are secular ( atheist ) 25% believe in God, but do not actively worship Him and 12% practice Judaism, 8% are the ultra orthodox Haredi Jews. In all the amazing things that have happened to the Jews since 1948 – their resettlement, restored language and wars won, they still do not acknowledge Gods hand in their affairs. He has helped them, for the reason that they are a part of His originally chosen people, but their continued rejection of Jesus and their sinful ways will result in their being virtually wiped out on the Lord’s Day of wrath. Only a remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

The eventual restoration of a Jewish remnant, in their shame and humiliation. Ezekiel 16:63, Romans 9:27

Psalms 69:36 The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His name will live there. Psalm 37:7-40
Reference; Revised English bible, some verses abridged.

Talk to me about "Elijahs" coming to "restore all things" (Matthew 17:11) and how this relates to the regathering of Israel into the land.

Will there be a second exodus?
Will a remnant of Jacob be restored?
How does Ezekiel 20:35 play out?

If you think restore all things has already been and gone you would be wrong.
If you believe restore all things only relates to Christians you would be wrong.

F2F

 

[face2face]

They don't represent anything. They are two literal beings. One human and one a creation brought to life, a literal animated entity. I don't look at a dragon. I am looking at Satan, every time that dragon is mentioned. You are right that Satan is bound. But wrong saying that nothing is cast into the LOF. A human and this entity called the beast ate literally cast into this LOF.

@Spiritual Israelite you know the type of questions you are stating will actually lead you into truth - a good question is better than a good answer...do you know why?