The state of the church

[justaname]

Romans 8 speaks of foreknowledge and predestination. We are foreknown by God and predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ. This is completely an act of God. We do no choosing, nor do we do anything righteous. So in other words before we are even born, before the foundations of the world, God knew who His chosen were. We didn't do anything to be chosen, we are not born righteous, we are simply foreknown.

Enough on that rant though, as to the OP. Personally I believe in the sovereignty of God. God, being omniscient, knows right where the church is in its current state in this current age. The establishing of the church was not covenantal in the same way the establishing of Israel was. The church will continue as God desires. It is for us to pray for obedience to follow the direction given, answer the obvious needs before us, and most of all LOVE!

Think of it from this position. We are servants of the Most High God. As servants it is us who need to react to what the Master is doing and not the latter. God has a plan daily. It is for us to humble ourselves to our agenda, and to get in line with His.

 

[Prentis]

Romans 8 speaks of foreknowledge and predestination. We are foreknown by God and predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ. This is completely an act of God. We do no choosing, nor do we do anything righteous. So in other words before we are even born, before the foundations of the world, God knew who His chosen were. We didn't do anything to be chosen, we are not born righteous, we are simply foreknown.

There is truth in what you say, but I wonder if you bring it too far.

God has indeed chosen and predestined us... But to what? This life is a race. God selects who he wants to see run, but it is still the runner who must participate. Yes, it is God who makes one swift, and gives one the victory... But he does it impartially, and gives to the one who deserves to win. God gives us grace, but it is for us to decide what we do with it... Bury it? Advance further?

There is a deep deception that is very widespread in modern Christianity that eliminates the race from the gospel. It short circuits the whole purpose of the gospel.

We are called and given gifts that we might run and attain to what we are called to. The error being spread is that the whole purpose of being here is that we would be called. And then, it's done. We were called... It's over. But the opposite is true. We are here to run the race! We are here to attain to Christ!

May God give his people a vision, a direction, as to our calling in Him! The church deeply needs it.

 

[aspen]

We were all predestined to be in Garden, in communion with God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

We were all predestined to be in Garden, in communion with God.

Not your call, some arent, all who believe are.

 

[aspen]

aspen2,
Not your call, some arent, all who believe are.

God did not create humanity to Fall.

 

[mark s]

There is truth in what you say, but I wonder if you bring it too far.

God has indeed chosen and predestined us... But to what?

Hi Prentis,

Scripture is clear on this point.

Romans 8:29 ESV
(29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

God has placed limits in advance prohorizo predestined for us to be conformed to the image of Jesus. God has made sure we're going to become just like Jesus.

Now, you can say what you will, however, this is a simple statement, plainly given in Scripture. God has predestined the one He knew in advance to be made just like Jesus.

And who does that work?

Philippians 1:6 ESV
(6) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Hmmm . . . this also says when it will be completed.

Now . . . please don't just tell me I'm wrong . . . deceived . . . deceiver . . . . Tell me why you believe these Scriptures say something different than what I've said them mean.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

God did not create humanity to Fall.

true, humanity was all intended for the Garden, to be in communion with God, but some chose not to, so not all of humanity is predestined.

 

[aspen]

aspen2,
true, humanity was all intended for the Garden, to be in communion with God, but some chose not to, so not all of humanity is predestined.

Calvin was wrong about many ideas - his understanding of predestination is one of them.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

Calvin was wrong about many ideas - his understanding of predestination is one of them.

Calvin is often misrepresented. Jacobus Arminius was in 1603 professor in theology at the university of Leiden.

 

[aspen]

aspen2,
Jacobus Arminius was in 1603 professor in theology at the university of Leiden.

What about him?

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

What about him?

What about Calvin?

 

[aspen]

aspen2,
What about Calvin?

No. I did not include Calvin from your quote in my post - [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Jacobus Arminius[/background]

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

No. I did not include Calvin from your quote in my post - [background=rgb(247,247,247)]Jacobus Arminius

Is that supposed to be a quote from Arminius? [/background]

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

Do you believe in an imputed (pretend) righteousness?

The problem with this statement is that appears immediately anti-scriptural, because Paul did speak about imputed righteousness with regard to both the Old and the New Covenants.

As New Covenant believers we ought to understand both, and be able to explain the difference to those who don't understand it.




To justaname,

The establishing of the church was not covenantal in the same way the establishing of Israel was.

This seems to be a teaching which is going around, but it has no foundation in scripture.



For instance, look at these verses:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,

and with the house of Judah: ​

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he says, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ​

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling,

that speaks better things than [that of] Abel. ​

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying,

This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. ​

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.​

 

[aspen]

If someone can help out Bightmorningstar with his comprehension of my posts, feel free - I've done all I can.

 

[dragonfly]

someone can help out Bightmorningstar with his comprehension of my posts, feel free - I've done all I can.

Brother, if I ever move away from CyB, be sure of this one thing ..... I'm going to miss your ascerbic wit.

 

[Prentis]

Hi Prentis,

Scripture is clear on this point.

Romans 8:29 ESV
(29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

God has placed limits in advance prohorizo predestined for us to be conformed to the image of Jesus. God has made sure we're going to become just like Jesus.

Now, you can say what you will, however, this is a simple statement, plainly given in Scripture. God has predestined the one He knew in advance to be made just like Jesus.

And who does that work?

Philippians 1:6 ESV
(6) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Hmmm . . . this also says when it will be completed.

Now . . . please don't just tell me I'm wrong . . . deceived . . . deceiver . . . . Tell me why you believe these Scriptures say something different than what I've said them mean.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I believe that is true. God predestines us, and he will finish his work in us...

But the word must be taken in balance, it gives these promises, and they are true. But the Bible also gives us 'IF's.


Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Heb 6:15 And so, after he (Abraham) had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Seems our author was not a believer of 'faith alone', and neither are any of the other NT authors, if we would only look close enough. We must consider both the goodness and severity of the Lord. His goodness in that he gives us the most wondrous promises, and his severity in that he warns those who would take them lightly.

The modern gospel tells us NOT to consider the severity of God, that it is not for us... But this is not the voice of God speaking, it is the enemy!

 

[brightmorningstar]

dragonfly,

Brother, if I ever move away from CyB, be sure of this one thing ..... I'm going to miss your ascerbic wit

Actually its pretty indicative of the gulf between liberals and Christians. With men adopting the same tactics of responding to posts with tangents has caused a complete breakdown in communications. It seems that whilst liberals address tangental points the only way of keeping a debate going is for us to address the points directly.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brightmorningstar,

Actually its pretty indicative of the gulf between liberals and Christians. With men adopting the same tactics of responding to posts with tangents has caused a complete breakdown in communications. It seems that whilst liberals address tangental points the only way of keeping a debate going is for us to address the points directly.

You are missing the point of the tangential communication ....... completely.

The fact is, on a forum like this - and even in your local church - there is a limit to what one Christian can insist another Christian should do, let alone think. And once that limit has been reached, both parties have to find a way to co-exist in love while accepting the - possibly temporary - intransigence of their differing views. But the differing views are not really the issue to be contended with; it's the attitude of the heart towards one another which counts in God's sight - and especially whether one's own responses to 'the situation' are pleasing to Him.

When any person has formed opinions or survival strategies through personal experience, (all of us!!!) it takes a combination of God's powers at work to break up the construct which formed, and reconstruct all that was broken which led to the construct in the first place.

There is no substitute for personal revelation related directly to one's own unique life experience. This is God's province and all that others can do, is pray it come sooner than later, but nevertheless that it be in His perfect timing for the other person's utmost well-being.

In the meantime, might one busy oneself digging a large enough grave for the dead horse?

.
Hi aspen,

I intend to give a response to your post to me on the previous page (p4) of this thread, but wonder if you could find what I wrote which prompted you to say the following? (I am forgetful... I know that... but this doesn't ring any bells for me so far... Thanks. )

Finally, concerning one of your past posts, I am not sure why you are equating humility with my acceptance of the idea that it is ok for Protestants to view Catholicism as a cult AND get upset when Catholics exclude them. Wouldn't that be the same as me asking you to simply be humble enough to accept the Eucharist as the Real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ? Implying that, it is only your pride that is holding you back from the truth......

Seems a bit condescending to me.

 

[brightmorningstar]

dragonfly,

The fact is, on a forum like this - and even in your local church - there is a limit to what one Christian can insist another Christian should do, let alone think.

I agree provided the views are Christian. In principle if someone doesnt think as a Christian one can argue they arent Christian.
As to church, I dont think one should be a member of any organsation whose views they dont agree with. If I were to become a member of the Roman Catholic church for example it would be on the understanding and acknowledgement of what the RC church holds to.