The state of the church

[aspen]

What is lacking is leadership. In the old days the enemy would just have to kill the shepherd and the sheep would scatter. So the state would burn the bishops at the stake or cut their heads off. Then OTHER leaders would take their place but whom the state did not take as a threat. So the church became acceptable to the reigning principalities and powers. The sheep didn't seem to mind so much...until another leader showed up.

So to muddy the waters more..a different doctrine was introduced cobbled together from attractive sounding verses.

So the combination of killing off the leaders and bad doctrine eventually led to a horrible practice that mirrored the worst we see in mankind. Then a lack of leadership emerged owing to the efficiency of the false doctrines. Who would stand against the established church?

What to restore first?

Well true leadership seeks to establish proper doctrine AND practice. The best defense of the truth is the practice of the truth.

Something new must be tried. Actually the return of true apostolic doctrine and the power that exemplified the early church. There is no going back to the old days, though. The church must be transformed into a community of heaven that exceeds the witness of the early church. We are living in a time that is very interesting for those who are willing to embark on a great adventure. The restoration of the saints to the power of replacing the principalities that currently blind the world to the truth. The rise of the saints is what we seek. The preparation, no less, of the bride for the coming King Jesus. That is our agenda.

But Christians have been chasing this rainbow for 2,000 years,,,,,,what makes you think that it can be achieved today? Especially without it resulting in another denomination? The problem I see is that Christians have romanticized the Early Church so much that our imagine of it is warped. It is like the old marry guy looking back with longing to his youth and all the honeymoon periods of his relationships and wondering why his married relationship isn't like that anymore....of course he is forgetting all the crap that went with it and the same hormones are no longer involved and on and on and on.....but he is still wistful and actually believes that he can/should/deserves to recreate those ideal conditions.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

There is always a cost to someone, of doing the will of God.

There are groups of Christians who take the New Testament very seriously, and live it out through local church or a Christian community. In the end, an individual has to find out from God where He wants the individual to worship, work, live and so on, and once the individual is installed in the centre of God's will for him/her, there are usually many challenges to face with God.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,

There is always a cost to someone, of doing the will of God.

There are groups of Christians who take the New Testament very seriously, and live it out through local church or a Christian community. In the end, an individual has to find out from God where He wants the individual to worship, work, live and so on, and once the individual is installed in the centre of God's will for him/her, there are usually many challenges to face with God.

I do not see the focus of the NT on the individual. Conversely, I see the church being described as a whole, often - 'the bride of Christ' / 'the Body of Christ. In fact, I am beginning to see the Western Christian focus on the individual as a mistake, which is more related to our American/European humanist leanings, rather than Christianity. In my opinion, Hell is the ultimate example of radical individualism - the branch cut off and thrown into the fire.

Also, we have different opinions about who takes the NT seriously. I see a desert father who has sacrificed his entire life to living the ideals of the NT within a Catholic framework - you might see him as a confused old kook. You may look at a contemporary person who loves God and follows the NT in his daily life - I might see him as someone who is rebelling against the Body of Christ and choosing to interpret the Bible from a private point of view.

As far as, a cost for following Christ.....if I have to believe that true Christianity is only an ideal (which is exactly what Fundamentalism does), which, if acted upon, results in corruption and another quest for purity, the cost is too high.

Finally, concerning one of your past posts, I am not sure why you are equating humility with my acceptance of the idea that it is ok for Protestants to view Catholicism as a cult AND get upset when Catholics exclude them. Wouldn't that be the same as me asking you to simply be humble enough to accept the Eucharist as the Real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ? Implying that, it is only your pride that is holding you back from the truth......

Seems a bit condescending to me.

Oh and by the way Foreigner, if you are reading, I know how you enjoy quoting me out of context and then use the words I have written against me for years in the future - I found a good one for you! I've marked the words in red so that you can find them - make sure you get some good use from them - I want you to get the most out of misrepresenting me as possible! Cheers!

 

[brightmorningstar]

The state of the church is at a very interesting point. There is more unity in my view today that for years, decades, (even centuries?) There is a coming together in faith and belief amongst churches regradless of, and with respect to other's traditions, practices and styles. There is also a major split emerging through a counterfit church.

 

[Episkopos]

But Christians have been chasing this rainbow for 2,000 years,,,,,,what makes you think that it can be achieved today? Especially without it resulting in another denomination? The problem I see is that Christians have romanticized the Early Church so much that our imagine of it is warped. It is like the old marry guy looking back with longing to his youth and all the honeymoon periods of his relationships and wondering why his married relationship isn't like that anymore....of course he is forgetting all the crap that went with it and the same hormones are no longer involved and on and on and on.....but he is still wistful and actually believes that he can/should/deserves to recreate those ideal conditions.

The difference is that it is in prophecy. Jesus is coming for a church without spot or wrinkle.

 

[aspen]

The difference is that it is in prophecy. Jesus is coming for a church without spot or wrinkle.

In God's eyes the Church is without spot or wrinkle - we are a forgiven people.

 

[Episkopos]

I do not see the focus of the NT on the individual. Conversely, I see the church being described as a whole, often - 'the bride of Christ' / 'the Body of Christ. In fact, I am beginning to see the Western Christian focus on the individual as a mistake, which is more related to our American/European humanist leanings, rather than Christianity. In my opinion, Hell is the ultimate example of radical individualism - the branch cut off and thrown into the fire.

Also, we have different opinions about who takes the NT seriously. I see a desert father who has sacrificed his entire life to living the ideals of the NT within a Catholic framework - you might see him as a confused old kook. You may look at a contemporary person who loves God and follows the NT in his daily life - I might see him as someone who is rebelling against the Body of Christ and choosing to interpret the Bible from a private point of view.

As far as, a cost for following Christ.....if I have to believe that true Christianity is only an ideal (which is exactly what Fundamentalism does), which, if acted upon, results in corruption and another quest for purity, the cost is too high.

Finally, concerning one of your past posts, I am not sure why you are equating humility with my acceptance of the idea that it is ok for Protestants to view Catholicism as a cult AND get upset when Catholics exclude them. Wouldn't that be the same as me asking you to simply be humble enough to accept the Eucharist as the Real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ? Implying that, it is only your pride that is holding you back from the truth......

Seems a bit condescending to me.

Oh and by the way Foreigner, if you are reading, I know how you enjoy quoting me out of context and then use the words I have written against me for years in the future - I found a good one for you! I've marked the words in red so that you can find them - make sure you get some good use from them - I want you to get the most out of misrepresenting me as possible! Cheers!

Good points. It is actually the coming together of the saints that will spark this under the radar revival of the truth together with the true gospel of the kingdom.

In God's eyes the Church is without spot or wrinkle - we are a forgiven people.

Do you believe in an imputed (pretend) righteousness?

 

[aspen]

Do you believe in an imputed (pretend) righteousness?

Are you really asking me if I believe something you have describes as 'pretend' is real? Why would you bother asking my such a question? Just state your point

 

[Episkopos]

Are you really asking me if I believe something you have describes as 'pretend' is real? Why would you bother asking my such a question? Just state your point

Are you using protestant thinking?

 

[aspen]

Are you using protestant thinking?

sorry, I am not following your logic.....

 

[Episkopos]

sorry, I am not following your logic.....

There is no "imputed" righteousness. God sees us as we are. Jesus was truly holy and so are we when we are IN Him. We come out of Adam (our old house) and move in with Jesus. We use the words of Christ as the doorway in order to believe INTo Him. So we abide in Christ and not sin.

As Jesus IS so are we in this world.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[aspen]

There is no "imputed" righteousness. God sees us as we are. Jesus was truly holy and so are we when we are IN Him. We come out of Adam (our old house) and move in with Jesus. We use the words of Christ as the doorway in order to believe INTo Him. So we abide in Christ and not sin.

As Jesus IS so are we in this world.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

You sound like a Catholic. I reject imputed righteousness - I am not a Calvinist. I believe in infused grace.

 

[Episkopos]

You sound like a Catholic. I reject imputed righteousness - I am not a Calvinist. I believe in infused grace.

So do I. I think we are divided by a common doctrine.

 

[justaname]

Romans 4

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

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17 (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

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18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”​

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19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb;​

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20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,​

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21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.​

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22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.​

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Galatians 3

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?​

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2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

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3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?​

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4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?​

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5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?​

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6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.​

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7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.​

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Infused righteousness or imputed?

Romans 8

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.​

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29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;​

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30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

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Is God doing this work or is the saint?

 

[Prentis]

Is God doing this work or is the saint?

They do it together, hand in hand... Otherwise the man could not start in the Spirit and continue in the flesh, since he does nothing.

God is the one leads... But like a dance, the man leads, but the woman must follow!

 

[justaname]

The beginning of verse 28 states

And we know that God causes...

That does not sound like a dance to me.

Please don't misunderstand, we will be held accountable for our actions, words, and thoughts at the Bema seat.

Also to keep in context, it says "having begun by the Spirit..." which can also be stated having begun by God.

 

[Prentis]

God causes all things to work for the best of those who love him

There is the dance again! We fit the role of the follower... What is required is that we put our whole heart in it, love him, and he will work all things out. If we dance with all our heart, God will lead every step!

 

[justaname]

I do see a level of accountability for the believer which is clear, but it is also clear that it is only by an act of God that we are saved.

Also there is nothing "pretend" about Christ's righteousness.

 

[Prentis]

I do see a level of accountability for the believer which is clear, but it is also clear that it is only by an act of God that we are saved.

Also there is nothing "pretend" about Christ's righteousness.

Absolutely. God is the one who grafts us in.

But to see only that is to miss the other half of the picture. Like you say, there is a level of accountability.... As a matter of fact, our level of accountability is higher than that of those who do not know him. Those who are given new life in Christ are given much, so much is expected.

 

[whitestone]

Jesus chose me, I'm pretty happy about that