Jesus comes for the resurrection/rapture in 1Thessalonians4:14-18. Which is not the return of Jesus with His bride from heaven in Revelation 19.7-8, Revelation 19:14.
The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.
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Jesus in Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 19:14 returns to earth from heaven with His bride. How and when did Jesus's bride get to heaven ?
Yes, it is. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 indicates that the dead in Christ will be with Jesus when He comes for the resurrection/rapture. So, the souls of the dead in Christ are His bride from heaven that will be with Him when He comes from heaven for the one and only time in the future.
Do you believe in soul sleep? If not, then why do you have trouble understanding how His bride can be with Him in heaven even now? Scripture (1 Thessalonians 4:14) teaches that the souls of the dead in Christ will be with Him at His second coming, so it should be obvious that Revelation 19 is referring to that.
First of all heaven doesn't always mean the unseen heaven where God and angels dwell. In Revelation 19 heaven is mentioned a cpl of times. For example, here--And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven(verse 17) Would anyone take that heaven to mean the unseen heaven where God and angels dwell? Probably not. Right?
As to your question, my guess would be like such.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Initially, before Christ descends from the literal unseen heaven, those which sleep in Jesus are already present in heaven with Him before He descends And when He descends He brings them with Him. It even plainly says so in verse 14 above.
And as He and the dead in Christ who rise first are descending, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Which then explains the armies formed in Revelation 19 that are seen accompanying Him when they confront the beast's and it's armies below. Which also agrees with all of the following which Pretrib ignores.
and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee(Zechariah 14:5)
Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14)
at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints(1 Thessalonians 3:13)
But how can all of His saints come with Him when He comes if Pretrib has some not becoming saints until after the rapture? Meaning during great tribulation. Meaning the ones that don't die during great tribulation by the time Christ comes, but became saints during great tribulation. 2 of those passages I submitted above says 'all' saints, not some saints but not other saints. Granted, Jude 1:14 does not say all saints, yet it is plainly obvious what is meant by ten thousands of His saints by comparing with both Zechariah 14:5 and 1 Thessalonians 3:13. Thus Scripture interpreting Scripture.
Speaking of that, a lot of interpreters swear up and down that they always . interpret Scripture with Scripture then contradict that by not doing that with Zechariah 14:5, Jude 1:14, and 1 Thessalonians 3:13. Even though it's crystal clear undeniably obvious that all 3 accounts are involving the same event. What then is the problem? Doctrinal bias, obviously.
The bride doesn’t need a prior 7 year nor a 3.5 year stay in heaven---she is gathered to Christ as He descends, meets Him in the air, and immediately accompanies Him in His return, fulfilling every passage that says He comes with all His saints, including Zechariah 14:5, where it is mainly some Amils, but not all Amils, and Preterists that deny that that verse involves the 2nd coming..
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
There's nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2 about the Day of the LORD coming the day the man of sin seats himself up in the naos - sanctuary of the Holy Spirit (Temple of God).
In other parts of the New Testament it speaks about the 42 months rule of the beast and his war against the saints during that period.
Maybe it's because you haven't fully grasped how Scripture interprets Scripture is supposed to work?
1Thessalonians 4:14-18 is about the resurrection/rapture event - not about Jesus;s return with His bride.
1Thessalonans 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
The souls of the dead in Christ that God will bring with Jesus for the resurrection/rapture event, will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. So the starting point of incorruptible bodies of 1Corinthians15:42 will be at the same event for both the dead and the living in Christ
The resurrection/rapture event has not taken place yet.
No, I don't believe in soul sleep.
You don't think "them also which sleep in Jesus" are His bride?
Yes, of course.
Of course. What is your point in mentioning these obvious things?
No kidding. No one said otherwise. Why do you say things like this as if anyone said otherwise?
Since you don't believe in soul sleep then do you understand that the souls of the dead in Christ are part of the bride of Christ?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
42 months after the man of sin had seated himself up in the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit (naos)- the New Testament Temple of God.
When will the Day of Christ come?
Don't be shaken in mind brother - before that day comes there will be a falling away and the man of sin will be revealed when he seats himself up in the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:3).
The beast will rise from the abyss and rule for 42 months when this time begins, making war against the saints and overcoming them - and the image set up by his false prophet will be causing all who will not worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name on their right hands or on their foreheads, to be killed.
So be alarmed with the rest of us - because though Jesus makes seven promises to those who overcome (one to each of the seven churches), we are also told that all except those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will indeed worship the beast!
- but those who are to be martyred for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name, are promised that the second death will have no authority over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him a thousand years.
We are also promised that immediately after the tribulation of those days (the 42-month period), Jesus will appear in the heavens and send out His angels to gather His elect - the day of the rapture.
So don't be alarmed about the return of Christ coming unexpectedly upon those who are awake and watching as Jesus told us all to do. We will not know the day or the hour, but we will recognize the signs. As Jesus said, when we see all these things, then we should lift up our heads, because we will know that our redemption draws near.
DavidTaylor
Member
However, Paul did specify the scope of the destruction upon the wicked when Christ descends from Heaven, in this later 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 passage;
"when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."
But not in Revelation 19:7-8 and Revelation 19:14. It is His bride that come with Jesus from heaven. His bride is the armies which were in heaven.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
We are already seated with Him in heaven now. The armies you see in Revelation 19 are resurrected saints. It does not say they will have been there for 42 months.
I did not say the souls of the dead in Christ are part of his bride.
The resurrected dead in Christ and the raptured living in Christ will be His bride. The changes is to the bodies, not the souls.
I have not said anything about how long the resurrected/raptured saints will be in heaven before returning with Jesus as His bride. The resurrection/rapture could happen today. We don't know exactly when. Except that it has to take place before the man of sin is revealed by the act in 2Thessalonians2:4.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It does not say that in 2 Thessalonians 2 at all. It says there will be a falling away and the man of sin will seat himself up in the Temple BEFORE the Day of Christ.
Where does it say in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will take place before the man of sin seats himself up in the Temple?
@Douggg
8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival.
How can the Lord's arrival come before the lawless one is revealed?
How can the rapture come before the arrival of Christ? All the New Testament tells us that the rapture will occur when Christ appears in the heavens and sends out His angels to gather His elect - immediately following the days of great tribulation.
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David Taylor! How are you doing? Nice to see you here. Please post more often if you get the chance.
Yes, you are absolutely right.
I did reference that passage once in my original post when I said "As Paul said, we (believers) are not appointed to God's wrath, so both Paul and Peter encouraged believers to stay strong in the faith so that if Jesus comes in our lifetimes, we will be ready and not face His wrath of "sudden destruction" by fire upon the earth on the day He comes "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8).".
So, I did show the connection there between 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. And, of course, both passages relate directly to 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well.
In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, the resurrection/rapture will take place before the day of the Lord begins when God's wrath will be poured out.
The day of the Lord begins when the man of sin sits in the temple, in 2Thessalonians 2:4.
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