The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.

[Earburner]

Why do you not actually address my arguments? Matthew 25:31-46 very clearly has all people being gathered AT THE SAME TIME before Jesus's throne. It's clearly not talking about something that happens over the course of time since Pentecost. In the future Jesus will come with His angels and gather all people AT THE SAME TIME at which point ALL PEOPLE will be separated into two groups that He called the sheep (believers) and the goats (unbelievers). He will then judge all people with all of us giving an account of ourselves to Him.


Matthew 25:31-46 is not about determining who is and is not condemned. That will already be determined before that. That is determined when each person dies. The souls and spirits of those who are saved go to heaven when they die and the souls and spirits of the unsaved go to hell when they die. What will happen at that time in the future when Jesus comes with His angels is that everyone will give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12) in terms of how they treated "the least of these" and so on. Then, when the judgment is over, all believers will inherit eternal life with immortal bodies in the kingdom prepared for us since the foundation of the world in the eternal new heavens and new earth with unbelievers being cast into the everlasting lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Do you not see that it does not matter how much the unsaved person is evil or not?

For all of their decisions in their life, during the time of their existence, all of such will have neglected to do one thing, and that was for them to come to repentance and believe in Jesus. Therefore, since they have neglected to do so, the sentence of complete destruction and Eternal death remains upon them, to be their permanent fate.
John 3:18 reveals that there will NEVER be any born again Christian "appearing before the judgment seat of Christ". THEY already have, and therefore were declared to be NOT condemned.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you not see that it does not matter how much the unsaved person is evil or not?

Did you change the topic on me? What are you talking about? How does this relate to what we've been talking about?

For all of their decisions in their life, during the time of their existence, all of such will have neglected to do one thing, and that was for them to come to repentance and believe in Jesus.

Right. And your point is?

Therefore, since they have neglected to do so, the sentence of complete destruction and Eternal death remains upon them, to be their permanent fate.

Of course, but that is not actually carried out until Jesus returns in the future with His angels. None of them have been cast into the lake of fire yet. They will all be cast there at the same time, as Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:15 indicate. Currently, the souls of dead unbelievers are in hell/Hades awaiting the time for them to be resurrected and then have to stand before Christ to give an account of themselves before being cast into the lake of fire.

John 3:18 reveals that there will NEVER be any born again Christian "appearing before the judgment seat of Christ". THEY already have, and therefore were declared to be NOT condemned.

You are blatantly contradicting scripture. It's truly unbelievable to witness. Do you think Paul was only talking about unbelievers when he said this..

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

And this...

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly shows the sheep, which represent those who belong to Christ, all being gathered before Christ's throne (same as the judgment seat of Christ) AT THE SAME TIME. When has that ever happened before? Never. But, it will happen when He returns. I don't know where you get your beliefs from, but they are definitely not from scripture. Were you taught the things you believe or did you come up with them yourself?

 

[Earburner]

Why do you not actually address my arguments? Matthew 25:31-46 very clearly has all people being gathered AT THE SAME TIME before Jesus's throne. It's clearly not talking about something that happens over the course of time since Pentecost. In the future Jesus will come with His angels and gather all people AT THE SAME TIME at which point ALL PEOPLE will be separated into two groups that He called the sheep (believers) and the goats (unbelievers). He will then judge all people with all of us giving an account of ourselves to Him.


Matthew 25:31-46 is not about determining who is and is not condemned. That will already be determined before that. That is determined when each person dies. The souls and spirits of those who are saved go to heaven when they die and the souls and spirits of the unsaved go to hell when they die. What will happen at that time in the future when Jesus comes with His angels is that everyone will give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12) in terms of how they treated "the least of these" and so on. Then, when the judgment is over, all believers will inherit eternal life with immortal bodies in the kingdom prepared for us since the foundation of the world in the eternal new heavens and new earth with unbelievers being cast into the everlasting lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I agree with Mat. 25:31-46. However, the rendition of it by the Holy Spirit through Paul (2 Thes. 1:7-10) and Peter (2 Peter 3:9-13 is more to the point of how God's judgment will be delivered to both the saved and the unsaved.
It will NOT be a long drawn out process of God comparing notes with anyone of how well they performed as a Christian, or didn't. You can see the same in Luke 17:28-30.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day [of 24 hours] that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the [24 hour] day when the Son of man is revealed.

You can also check that out with the repentant thief on the cross.

Edit:
The repentant thief was promised to be in the kingdom of God with Jesus on the same day that he died mortally also.
See also:
John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
See also 1 John 5:11-13
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye MAY KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Yes!! John 3:18 is currently applicable to both the saved and the unsaved, upon the end of their mortal existence. Therefore the judgment of "condemned already" or "not condemned" shall stand without argument or explanation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree with Mat. 25:31-46.

That's nice, but how do you interpret it exactly? Do you think it is already fulfilled or already has started to be fulfilled? Do you agree that it portrays all people being gathered before Jesus at the same time rather than over the course of time?

However, the rendition of it by the Holy Spirit through Paul (2 Thes. 1:7-10) and Peter (2 Peter 3:9-13 is more to the point of how God's judgment will be delivered to both the saved and the unsaved.
It will NOT be a long drawn out process of God comparing notes with anyone of how well they performed as a Christian, or didn't.

Of course not. The fates of all the people gathered before Christ will already be determined before that takes place. But, God has determined that every person needs to give an account of themselves to Christ before getting their eternal rewards or punishments. This has not happened yet.

You can check that out with the repentant thief on the cross.

Say what now? What does this mean? I wish you could learn to communicate more clearly.

 

[Earburner]

That's nice, but how do you interpret it exactly? Do you think it is already fulfilled or already has started to be fulfilled? Do you agree that it portrays all people being gathered before Jesus at the same time rather than over the course of time?

I see it over the course of time.
Prior to Jesus, no one ever had the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. Therefore all of the faithful of Israel were waiting for "the Promise to come".
The best that God could do for them until Jesus first appeared, was to "remember" them. Malachi 3:16-18.
We see many of them (but not all) coming forth out of their graves in Mat. 27:50-54 on the day of Jesus' crucifixion, as well as being reported in Rev. 6:39-11. All of such were the symbolic 144,000 of OC. Israel.

Of course not. The fates of all the people gathered before Christ will already be determined before that takes place. But, God has determined that every person needs to give an account of themselves to Christ before getting their eternal rewards or punishments. This has not happened yet.


Say what now? What does this mean? I wish you could learn to communicate more clearly.

(Please see my recent edit in post #123).

The thief brought nothing of himself to Jesus except a repentant heart and the will to believe that Jesus would save him through faith only. By him simply saying "Remember me....", he was actually reflecting on the scripture of Malachi 3:16-18, that speaks of the "book of remembrance" for all the saints of Israel, whose names were to be written down and remembered by God. Again, we see them each recieving the "white robe", which is symbolic of the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Rev. 6:9-11.
Edit: these are the symbolic 144,000 of OC. Israel.

 

[Earburner]

You are blatantly contradicting scripture. It's truly unbelievable to witness. Do you think Paul was only talking about unbelievers when he said this..

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

And this...

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

It is evident that you are not understanding (Edit: John 3:18)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

All we who are born again of the Holy Spirit of God, have already appeared before "the judgment seat of Christ" and HAVE BEEN declared to be NOT CONDEMNED.

Therefore any other judgment that might come from Christ towards His saints would be chastisement/correction.
Never would we be condemned again, unless of course one committed the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jay Ross]

I believe that this prophetic word given to Abraham is significant with respect to our salvation at the time of the final Judgement.

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And through you all the families inhabiting/living in My fertile soil/field shall be blessed."​

This verse tells us who will be blessed, not who will go into the Lake of Fire because even those who will cry out "Lord, Lord," on the Day of their Judgement will be told that He did not know them.​

 

[rvmb]

I believe that this prophetic word given to Abraham is significant with respect to our salvation at the time of the final Judgement.

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And through you all the families inhabiting/living in My fertile soil/field shall be blessed."​

This verse tells us who will be blessed, not who will go into the Lake of Fire because even those who will cry out "Lord, Lord," on the Day of their Judgement will be told that He did not know them.​

"Lord, Lord," on the Day of their Judgement will be told that He did not know them.
Do you believe that applies to believers today who are saved/sealed/justified by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel ?

 

[Earburner]

I believe that this prophetic word given to Abraham is significant with respect to our salvation at the time of the final Judgement.

I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And through you all the families inhabiting/living in My fertile soil/field shall be blessed."​

This verse tells us who will be blessed, not who will go into the Lake of Fire because even those who will cry out "Lord, Lord," on the Day of their Judgement will be told that He did not know them.​

By the following words of Jesus, every born again Christian should know that the OC. promises made to the nation of Israel, through Abraham, have become NULL and VOID.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from you, and GIVEN to a nation [of born again Christians] bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Luke 19:42
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but NOW they are HID from thine eyes.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference [no special treatment] between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a  NEW creature [not remodeled]: OLD things are PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things are become  NEW.
Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but [rather] a new creature.

Therefore, for any person who claims to be of Jewish heritage, and expects that God will be contrary to the NC., and should raise up the nation of Israel [Zionism] to be deserving of His special treatment, they are completely ignorant of the Gospel of Christ, and the condition of Israel, that He left them in since 70 AD.

Rom. 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief [in Jesus] THEY were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches [for unbelief], take heed lest he also spare not thee [for unbelief also].
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they [each] abide not still in unbelief [in Jesus], they shall be GRAFTED in [back into the KoG]: for God is ABLE [through their individual faith in Jesus] to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more [through their individual faith in Jesus] shall these [Jews], which be the natural branches, BE GRAFTED [back] into their own olive tree?

In light of this "hidden wisdom" [knowledge] from the Holy Spirit through Paul, is HOW we are to understand the book of Zechariah.

 

[Jay Ross]

"Lord, Lord," on the Day of their Judgement will be told that He did not know them.
Do you believe that applies to believers today who are saved/sealed/justified by the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel ?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4: - The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality​

​

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.​

​

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,​

​

Ephesian's 1:13-14: - 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Please note the qualification that was given in 1 Corinthians 15:2 which I have made bold in the quoted verses above.

So, in answer to your question, it applies to all who claim to be believes today if they hold fast.

 

[rvmb]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4: - The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality​

​

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.​

​

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,​

​

Ephesian's 1:13-14: - 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Please note the qualification that was given in 1 Corinthians 15:2 which I have made bold in the quoted verses above.

So, in answer to your question, it applies to all who claim to be believes today if they hold fast.

""believes today if they hold fast.""
Yes, belief/trust the Gospel is the requirement to be saved & sealed so no longer believing/trusting should = no longer saved ??
YET there is one verse that seems to nullify that.
2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
**
Thoughts ?

 

[Jay Ross]

By the following words of Jesus, every born again Christian should know that the OC. promises made to the nation of Israel, through Abraham, have become NULL and VOID.

Not True. God's word given to Israel through Moses is that they will become God's special People among all the nations of the earth.

Therefore, for any person who claims to be of Jewish heritage, and expects that God will be contrary to the NC., and should raise up the nation of Israel [Zionism] to be deserving of His special treatment, they are completely ignorant of the Gospel of Christ, and the condition of Israel, that He left them in since 70 AD.

You are completely ignorant of God's Promises to the Nation of Israel given to them by His Prophets. God has promised Israel that He will plant them in His fertile soil many times in the OT and that He will convincingly teach them about the understanding of the foundation stone, untouched by human hands, that will, in our near future, come down from Heaven to become the basis of the largest mountain/religion in all of the earth. In Jer 31:31ff God also promises to refresh with the House of Israel the covenant that they rejected at Mt Sinai such that they will become a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the Nations once more.

Moses spoke this to the nation of Israel before they entered the Land of Canaan: -

Deuteronomy 7:6: - 6 "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure, above all the peoples on the face of His fertile soil.​

God has allowed the nation of Israel to play the harlot with the God's of the Gentiles and had allowed the visitation of their iniquities of the fathers upon their children and the children's children during the third and the fourth age/generation of the existence of the nation of Israel and in the near future, because Israel has begun turning back to God and the leaves of the fig tree has begun to bud once more, such that, in around 20 or so years' time from now, God will begin gathering the Israelites to Himself and will plant them in His prepared fertile field where they are living, scattered throughout the nations, on the earth.

Jesus spoke of this to the Nation of Israel during His first advent in the Parable of the Sower.

 

[Jay Ross]

""believes today if they hold fast.""
Yes, belief/trust the Gospel is the requirement to be saved & sealed so no longer believing/trusting should = no longer saved ??
YET there is one verse that seems to nullify that.
2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
**
Thoughts ?

Yes, it is still our chose to decide whether or not we are willing to still believe in Him Whom God sent.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is evident that you are not understanding (Edit: John 3:18)
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

All we who are born again of the Holy Spirit of God, have already appeared before "the judgment seat of Christ" and HAVE BEEN declared to be NOT CONDEMNED.

Therefore any other judgment that might come from Christ towards His saints would be chastisement/correction.
Never would we be condemned again, unless of course one committed the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Nope. Matthew 25:31-46 has not yet happened, but will happen when Jesus comes in the future with His angels. No one has yet appeared before the judgment seat of Christ. Jesus Himself made it clear that all people will be gathered AT THE SAME TIME to appear before Him.

 

[rvmb]

Yes, it is still our chose to decide whether or not we are willing to still believe in Him Whom God sent.

Yes, freewill.
I've heard several detailed messages that logically state since belief is the requirement to be saved/sealed that belief (HOLD FAST) must continue.
Yet based on 2 Tim 2:13, I've heard other also convincing messages that state the saved remain saved even if they later stop believing.
To me that doesn't make sense but as yet I'm unable to find verses >>FROM PAUL<< that teach become UNsaved if belief ceases.
Are you aware of any ?

 

[rvmb]

Nope. Matthew 25:31-46 has not yet happened, but will happen when Jesus comes in the future with His angels. No one has yet appeared before the judgment seat of Christ. Jesus Himself made it clear that all people will be gathered AT THE SAME TIME to appear before Him.

""Nope. Matthew 25:31-46 has not yet happened,""
100% agreed.
""No one has yet appeared before the judgment seat of Christ."" 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:10
Since that is the teaching of Paul, who do you believe will appear there ?

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, freewill.
I've heard several detailed messages that logically state since belief is the requirement to be saved/sealed that belief (HOLD FAST) must continue.
Yet based on 2 Tim 2:13, I've heard other also convincing messages that state the saved remain saved even if they later stop believing.
To me that doesn't make sense but as yet I'm unable to find verses >>FROM PAUL<< that teach become UNsaved if belief ceases.
Are you aware of any ?

Read Ezekiel 18 about living and the second death. There is still a lot that we can learn from the Old Testament.

In this chapter it states clearly that if a "believer" sins and does not repent of his sin(s), then he will die the second death, but if a sinner repents he will not die the second death but that he will live.

 

[rvmb]

Read Ezekiel 18 about living and the second death. There is still a lot that we can learn from the Old Testament.

In this chapter it states clearly that if a "believer" sins and does not repent of his sin(s), then he will die the second death, but if a sinner repents he will not die the second death but that he will live.

"believer" sins and does not repent of his sin(s), << to believers in this current 'age' ??
Acts 9:15, Gal 2:7-9, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16
Since Christ gave Paul the role to teach Salvation to believers 'today' then Paul would also teach what you state if that applies 'today'
Can you list the verses >>FROM PAUL<< that supports your Ezekiel thoughts ?

 

[Jay Ross]

"believer" sins and does not repent of his sin(s), << to believers in this current 'age' ??
Acts 9:15, Gal 2:7-9, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16
Since Christ gave Paul the role to teach Salvation to believers 'today' then Paul would also teach what you state if that applies 'today'
Can you list the verses >>FROM PAUL<< that supports your Ezekiel thoughts ?

Jesus clearly taught about the second death when He said, {my paraphrase}: - "There are some stand around me today, who will not taste the second death until such time as I come again."

We do not have to look any further.

 

[rvmb]

Jesus clearly taught about the second death when He said, {my paraphrase}: - "There are some stand around me today, who will not taste the second death until such time as I come again."

We do not have to look any further.

Jesus clearly taught what was applicable to the audience He was addressing
""We do not have to look any further.""
What does Acts 9:15, Gal 2:7-9, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16 teach you ?