The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.

[Davidpt]

The subject here is as you say the Kingdom of God/Heaven. When Christ speaks a parable of the Kingdom of God/Heaven He is not referring to ALL of humanity saying all are of Christ or all are in unbelief. He is giving an analogy of the Kingdom of God/Heaven that spiritually exits on this earth as the church. All of these parables tell us that those who call themselves Christians within the body of Christ called 'church' are not all there out of love for Christ and His flowerers, not all who say Lord, Lord have been born again. What all the parables boil down to is the FACT that within or among the body of Christ, called 'the church' on earth are both born-again believers as well as those who appear to be born-again believers but are not. The Kingdom of God/Heaven in this age of time will never be spotless and pure until Christ comes again.

Acts 20:29-31 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Romans 16:17-18 (KJV) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Peter 2:1-2 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Christ, knowing that the body of Christ, called church in this age of time shall always be polluted by those false professors of faith in Christ, therefore at the GWTJ after Christ returns He will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and do iniquity, and cast them into a furnace of fire (LOF) that is the second death.

Matthew 13:41-42 (KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50 (KJV) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The goats in this particular parable are the unsaved among the saved (sheep), who will be gathered out from among the faithful saints in the Kingdom of God/Heaven called the church. However, after time given this earth is finished, at the great white throne judgment ALL of the DEAD (all of unsaved mankind, not only those who call themselves Christian among believers in the church, and are not) must give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life, whether the dead are among the born-again believers called church or simply those in this world who were never among the body of Christ called Church, they shall all have part in the lake of fire that is the second death. When Christ speaks of the GWTJ He is NOT speaking a parable.

Roger, on one hand it seems you might be agreeing with me that the goats don't represent all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time. While OTOH you are bringing the GWTJ into the discussion. Therefore, I'm a bit confused by your reply overall.

From what I can tell, at least you don't have any of the saved standing among the dead at the GWTJ after they already put on bodily immortality at the last trump during the 2nd coming, which precedes the GWTJ regardless when the GWTJ is meaning. Yet, per the sheep and goats judgment, the saved, meaning the sheep, are being judged along side of the goats. And that the sheep are found worthy of entering and inheriting the kingdom. While OTOH, the GWTJ couldn't possibly be involving the saved inheriting the kingdom. They already inherited it during the sheep and goats judgment.

Some Amils would have us believe that after the saved have put on bodily immortality at the last trump, that they are still dead and are standing among the dead in Revelation 20:11-15 being judged along side of everyone standing in front of God at the time.

In Revelation 20:11-15, it mentions the dead at least 4 times. Except 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 does not equal the dead, it equals the living. Where do these Amils in question see anyone 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 has been applied to, standing among the dead and being judged with them at the GWTJ, the fact these Amils insist the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ are the same judgment? Therefore, they need to point out in Revelation 20:11-15 who it is standing among the dead that are meaning anyone 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 was applied to during the 2nd coming?

Imagine that, of all things. You put on bodily immortality at the last trump, and you are still considered dead by some Amils. It’s odd and theologically confusing to call glorified saints “dead” at the GWTJ. After all, that's what everyone standing in front of God are called in Revelation 20:11-15, the dead. Granted, they are bodily resurrected before they stand in front of God. Yet they are still called the dead. No way, once 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 has happened to someone would they still be called the dead at that point. Nor would they be called the dead ever again for forever. And clearly, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 precedes it, not follows it nor equals it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The subject is the kingdom of heaven.

The subject is which people are in the kingdom of heaven and which people are not. All people will be gathered at the end of the age when Jesus comes with the wicked being separate from the just. The kingdom of heaven is offered to all people, which is why it talks about the net being full, but the only ones who will inherit the kingdom of God/heaven will be those who belong to Christ.

You apparently want us to believe that every single person on the planet, past, present, and future, are in the kingdom of heaven.

No. What I definitely believe is that you make a lot of false assumptions about what I believe because you have no understanding of amillennialism. You have proven that over and over and over again.

You apparently want us to believe that unrepentant atheists, unrepentant satanists, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, so on and so on, are in the kingdom of heaven. Thus this net catches them as well.

Nope. The gathering of the fish into the net represents the fact that salvation and the kingdom of heaven are offered to all people. All people are gathered with the ones represented by the good fish (the just) inheriting the kingdom of heaven and the ones represented by the bad fish (the wicked) being cast into the furnace of fire.

Do you not realize that the net stays in the water until the end of the age and is full? What the net is basically doing is the following until it is full.

That represents God's offer of salvation that continues throughout the age.

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

That's involving at least 2000 years. Even you agree. Per Matthew 22:10 above, do you think, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, for example, are among the good and bad gathered for the wedding?

That passage has a different context than Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. Just because Jesus sometimes focused on those who thought they were believers, but were not, doesn't mean He never talked in the context of all people, saved and lost. He specifically said those who are not with Him are against Him (Matthew 12:30), so He definitely spoke sometimes in the context of all people being in two groups. In the case of Matthew 13:47-50 Jesus specifically referred to the bad fish as being "the wicked". The wicked include unrepentant unbelieving Jews.

That is what the net is accomplishing. It symbolizes being brought into the kingdom of God throughout these past 2k years.

Then, how can any bad fish be in the net when it's brought in after becoming full? Only the good fish would be in the net if it represents being brought into the kingdom of God. The bad fish would be discarded before the net became full and brought in if that is what the net symbolized. The net would not include any bad fish once it was full. You're not really thinking this through carefully enough.

Since there is such a thing as NOSAS, this means the kingdom of God also attracts ones that end up falling away.

But, the net is gathered when it's full. Why would those who fell away be gathered when they would no longer be in the kingdom of God at that point if the net only gathers those who are in the kingdom of God? If the net gathering represented what you think it does, then there would be no way that any bad fish would be in it once it was full.

That's who the bad fish symbolize.

No, the text itself says that the bad fish represent "the wicked". All unbelievers fit that description. You are trying to change the text to fit your doctrine.

But the net isn't full until the end of this age. In the meantime it is still gathering fish, good fish(OSAS), bad fish(NOSAS).

Why would it keep bad fish in the net until the end of the age? Explain how that makes any sense. It's not as if someone who loses their faith continues to be saved and then is separated and loses their salvation at the end of the age. Your interpretation does not make any sense.

And guess what? I fully agree this parable is involving the sheep and goats judgment once the net is full and that the separating of the bad fish from the good fish commences.

Then you should understand that the sheep and goats judgment represents the time when all people including "the just" and "the wicked" will be gathered at the same time and separated into two groups and then judged. But, you don't include all people even though passages like Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 do.

Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matthew 24:3). These passages clearly indicates that the goats/bad fish, representing the wicked, will be cast into the lake of fire at that time. Do you really believe that some will be cast into the lake of fire when Jesus returns and others will be 1,000+ years later? Why would that be the case?

Once again, not every person on the planet is in the kingdom of God.

No one is saying that. But, the problem with your view is that you have some unsaved people who are not born again in the kingdom of God, which is clearly false.

Yet, in the kingdom of God there are both the good and the bad.

Wrong! That is an absolute 100% false statement. Only the good are in the kingdom of God. In order to be in the kingdom of God you must be born again (John 3:3-5). You are trying to say that those who are not born again are in the kingdom of God and won't be separated from those who are born again until the end of the age. That is false. Those who are born again are separated from those who are not NOW. Again, Jesus said those who are not with Him are against Him (Matthew 12:30). That is true NOW. So, everyone is either with Him or against Him right now. You are trying to say that those who are against Him are in the kingdom of God right now. No, they are not.

Clearly, you think everyone on the planet is in the kingdom of God,

Clearly, you are wrong and have no ability to discern what others believe. Why don't you actually make the effort to find out what I believe first before trying to tell me what I believe? You have done this for many years now. You don't think it's worth the time and effort to understand what others actually believe, so you end up making strawman arguments over and over again. Why do you never learn?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

the fact you take the goats to mean all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time, and that you take the bad fish in the net to mean the goats.

I never said the goats/bad fish are in the kingdom of God. YOU are saying that. I'm not obligated to agree with you about that.

At least you got some of it right.

You say things like this as if you've proven me wrong about something, which you clearly have not.

The bad fish are clearly meaning the goats. Except the goats are not meaning all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time.

Yes, they do. They represent those whose names are not written in the book of life. You obviously think the following two verses are not about the same event even though they very clearly are.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

They represent the NOSAS within the body of Christ.

No, they represent "the wicked" which describes all unbelievers. You agree that the goats represent the same thing as the bad fish and the bad fish are explicitly said to represent "the wicked". The wicked are those whose names are not written in the book of life.

Unless you want to argue, that per Matthew 22:10, for example, the bad gathered for the wedding include unrepentant unbelieving Jews, unrepentant atheists, unrepentant satanists, Cain from the beginning of time, so on and so on.

I already addressed that verse above when you already brought it up previously.

I suspect you still don't get it and probably never will in your lifetime. Maybe doctrinal bias explains it?

What I get is that you are not thinking this through carefully enough because of your own doctrinal bias. And you are the one who very likely will never get it in your lifetime. Your doctrinal bias has led you to conclude that people who are not saved are in the kingdom of God/heaven until the end of the age and are only removed from it at that point. When the reality is they are not in the kingdom of God/heaven now. Your doctrinal bias is so strong that it leads you to deny what passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 clearly indicate. You butcher that passage because of your emotions about not wanting anyone to be burned up or any animals to be killed. That's not how to study scripture and discover truth. Your bias comes through with every post you make.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

From what I can tell, at least you don't have any of the saved standing among the dead at the GWTJ after they already put on bodily immortality at the last trump during the 2nd coming, which precedes the GWTJ regardless when the GWTJ is meaning. Yet, per the sheep and goats judgment, the saved, meaning the sheep, are being judged along side of the goats. And that the sheep are found worthy of entering and inheriting the kingdom. While OTOH, the GWTJ couldn't possibly be involving the saved inheriting the kingdom. They already inherited it during the sheep and goats judgment.

That last statement in particular makes no sense because Matthew 25:31-46 is the GWTJ. How can you deny that the following two verses speak of the same thing?

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

With your doctrine, you have to change Revelation 20:15 to say that anyone not found written in the book of life who was not already cast into the lake of fire was cast into the lake of fire.

Some Amils would have us believe that after the saved have put on bodily immortality at the last trump, that they are still dead and are standing among the dead in Revelation 20:11-15 being judged along side of everyone standing in front of God at the time.

Where do you get this nonsense from? You prove over and over and over again that you have no clue as to what Amils actually believe. Do you understand that even the dead who are said to be there at the GWTJ are not physically dead any longer? They will first be resurrected. They are described as dead because they are not spiritually alive and are dead in their sins. But, just because believers are not specifically mentioned there does not mean that they are not there as well. That's an argument from silence which pretribs are known to make. That is not how to interpret scripture.

In Revelation 20:11-15, it mentions the dead at least 4 times. Except 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 does not equal the dead, it equals the living. Where do these Amils in question see anyone 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 has been applied to, standing among the dead and being judged with them at the GWTJ, the fact these Amils insist the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ are the same judgment? Therefore, they need to point out in Revelation 20:11-15 who it is standing among the dead that are meaning anyone 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 was applied to during the 2nd coming?

Imagine that, of all things. You put on bodily immortality at the last trump, and you are still considered dead by some Amils.

Imagine you ever accurately representing Amil. It will never happen. No Amil says that believers will be considered dead at that point in any way, shape or form.

It’s odd and theologically confusing to call glorified saints “dead” at the GWTJ.

No one says that. You are so confused. You really need to find better things to do with your time than to misrepresent Amil. You don't understand Amil and likely never will. You need to stop trying to speak for Amils when you so clearly don't have any understanding of what we believe beyond the basics (even you can understand that we don't believe that the thousand years follows Christ's return, but that's about the extent of what you understand about Amil).

After all, that's what everyone standing in front of God are called in Revelation 20:11-15, the dead. Granted, they are bodily resurrected before they stand in front of God.

Wow, I'm amazed that you even can discern that.

Yet they are still called the dead.

And do you even know why they are called the dead despite having been just resurrected? I just mentioned that above, but I wouldn't be surprised if you still don't know.

No way, once 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 has happened to someone would they still be called the dead at that point. Nor would they be called the dead ever again for forever. And clearly, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 precedes it, not follows it nor equals it.

Congratulations on wasting your time once again making a strawman argument. Time that you can never get back.

 

[rwb]

Roger, on one hand it seems you might be agreeing with me that the goats don't represent all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time. While OTOH you are bringing the GWTJ into the discussion. Therefore, I'm a bit confused by your reply overall.

From what I can tell, at least you don't have any of the saved standing among the dead at the GWTJ after they already put on bodily immortality at the last trump during the 2nd coming, which precedes the GWTJ regardless when the GWTJ is meaning. Yet, per the sheep and goats judgment, the saved, meaning the sheep, are being judged along side of the goats. And that the sheep are found worthy of entering and inheriting the kingdom. While OTOH, the GWTJ couldn't possibly be involving the saved inheriting the kingdom. They already inherited it during the sheep and goats judgment.

Some Amils would have us believe that after the saved have put on bodily immortality at the last trump, that they are still dead and are standing among the dead in Revelation 20:11-15 being judged along side of everyone standing in front of God at the time.

In Revelation 20:11-15, it mentions the dead at least 4 times. Except 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 does not equal the dead, it equals the living. Where do these Amils in question see anyone 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 has been applied to, standing among the dead and being judged with them at the GWTJ, the fact these Amils insist the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ are the same judgment? Therefore, they need to point out in Revelation 20:11-15 who it is standing among the dead that are meaning anyone 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 was applied to during the 2nd coming?

Imagine that, of all things. You put on bodily immortality at the last trump, and you are still considered dead by some Amils. It’s odd and theologically confusing to call glorified saints “dead” at the GWTJ. After all, that's what everyone standing in front of God are called in Revelation 20:11-15, the dead. Granted, they are bodily resurrected before they stand in front of God. Yet they are still called the dead. No way, once 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 has happened to someone would they still be called the dead at that point. Nor would they be called the dead ever again for forever. And clearly, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 precedes it, not follows it nor equals it.

David, the Kingdom parables speak of the spiritual condition of the church on earth. The church is the representation of the Kingdom of God/Heaven on earth spiritually, not physically. When speaking a parable Christ uses everyday images to convey spiritual truths about people who claim to be Christians spiritually making up the body of Christ, the church as it exists on this earth.

Those of faith, who believe the gospel of Christ are born again of the Spirit and from the moment of believing HAVE eternal life through the Spirit of Christ in them. Those who remain in unbelief may also believe for a time, but their faith does not come from the power of the Holy Spirit of Christ in them, they are never born again, never have eternal life. But still these who have not been born again, believing they too have eternal life through Christ are counted among the body of saints called church on the earth. We don't know who are and who are not eternally saved through the power of the Word and Spirit in them, only God knows who belong to Him.

As the gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth, the heart/nature of mankind is being judged by the message proclaimed. When the gospel of the Kingdom of God/Heaven is preached it will either produce conversion to faith in Christ through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit, OR man will remain in darkness and unbelief. This is what it means for all mankind to stand before the judgment seat of Christ during this age. Then at the end of this age those who remain "the dead" shall be called to stand before God at the GWT to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. While the judgment seat of Christ judges all mankind, only those who remain among the dead shall be judged at the GWT of God.

This is why Christ speaks these parables to the church on earth as one more warning for faithful saints of Christ to be on guard for the many who come in among faithful saints who are not born again, many who are in fact trying to be good without the power of the Holy Spirit in them, as well as some who try to turn the faithful away from the truths of Christ and are in fact wolves appearing to be sheep doing the deeds of their father, the Devil.

In this particular parable Christ, speaking to the church says when He comes again when the seventh/last trumpet sounds, He will separate the sheep (eternally saved) from the goats (unsaved) in the church (Kingdom of God/Heaven spiritually) who are gathered together in the church physically from all the nations of the earth. The sheep shall not be called to be judged at the GWT, but to hear Christ say to them, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world", because their deeds show they have been born again, having done deeds through faith according to the Spirit of Christ in them. Only the goats, on Christ's left will be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life, they are "the dead" no longer counted among those eternally alive in Christ. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Because they thought they could save themselves by outwardly doing good deeds that would merit eternal life, believing they could be saved through their own good works, thereby denying that eternal life is found only through the works of Christ through His cross and resurrection.

The parables serve multiple purposes. They reveal truths to those who are spiritually receptive while concealing them from those who are hard-hearted or unwilling to understand in the church. Jesus explained this dual purpose to His disciples: "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them" (Matthew 13:11). This method of teaching fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, highlighting the spiritual blindness of some listeners who appear to be sheep, but who are in fact unsaved, never have been born again, possessing the power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 13:14-15).

 

[rwb]

Judgment can include giving out rewards as well, as can be clearly seen in Matthew 25:31-46 where it portrays believers as being rewarded with eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.

The GWTJ shall be judging of the DEAD, not the living (see Rev 20:12-15). It is the reward not judgment that is determined according to our faithfulness to Christ in life before we die. Our deeds, whether they be good or evil are judged in life that we might receive reward or condemnation and death at the GWTJ of God according to what is written in the books and the book of life. If evil, we shall receive the reward of damnation in the lake of fire. If good we shall receive the reward of everlasting life with Christ on the new earth prepared for us from the foundation of the world.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You deny that scripture warns believers about being careful to keep their faith and to not depart from God even though it does so several times. You think believers can just ignore those warnings because they won't apply to us. That is because you have been deceived by the false doctrinal system known as Calvinism.

In Romans 11 Paul talks about Jewish unbelievers being cut off because of unbelief and then talks about Gentile believers who have been grafted in needing to be careful or else they too could be cut off (Romans 11:22). Do you take such warnings seriously? Of course not, because you're blinded by Calvinism.

The words of warning are written for the church because the church as it exists on this earth is inhabited by both those who are born again through the Spirit of Christ and possess eternal life as well as those who have not been born again and are still destined to die (be cut off). Just as the Old Covenant body, Israel of Old also had both those of faith as well as those in unbelief. Those of Old who were not of faith were cut off, and in the same manner so too shall Gentiles be cut off from the Covenant body of Christ, called church if they are not born again but remain in unbelief. It seems you believe that everyone in the church as it exists on this earth are born again but can lose their eternal salvation! We have the assurance of Christ that when we are born again, possessing eternal life through the power of His Spirit in us, we shall never be cut off as you believe because Christ makes intercession unto God for them.

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jesus said: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Revelation 2:10). We must be faithful until we die in order to receive eternal life. You deny this. You think we can be faithful one time and then eternal life is given.

Eternal life is given the moment we believe in Christ and have been born again! Who is he that shall be faithful until death to receive the crown of life? When we believe Jesus is the Son of God we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE through Him. How? Because He has already overcome the world by His sinless life, atoning sacrificial blood, and defeating of Satan and death. When we are found to be in Christ, we too have part in Him, overcomers with Him and have no fear of the second death. I don't THINK those of saving faith have ETERNAL, EVERLASTING LIFE through Christ....NO! I KNOW IT through the power of His Spirit in me!

1 John 5:5 (KJV) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10-12 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Yes, you are. I've made it clear that I didn't want to discuss that topic again and you keep bringing it up, anyway.

I'm not the one saying that we shall only have eternal life when we are resurrected immortal. That's why I gave you some verses telling us it is through spirit and not flesh that man is eternally saved. It is you not I that keeps repeating the same unbiblical doctrine again and again, then complaining when I give biblical support that we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE when we believe in Christ and have been born again. You don't seem to understand what eternal/everlasting life in Christ means, because you think eternal/everlasting life is not really eternal/everlasting life at all! It seems it doesn't matter how many passages and verses of Scripture prove this FACT; you continue to deny it! If you don't want to discuss the topic of eternal security through faith in Christ, then STOP repeating false doctrine telling us that eternal/everlasting life we possess in Christ shall only be ours through our resurrected flesh and is not ours NOW through the Spirit of Christ in us!

 

[Earburner]

Paul very specifically says that we all have to give an account of ourselves to Jesus while appearing before Him. If that's what you say, that's fine, but for you to deny that will happen is just mind boggling. You are going to be very surprised.


There you go with your stupid, foolish churchianity nonsense again. Churchianity has nothing to do with what I believe.


Your foolishness is just amazing to me. I wonder if you will refuse to give an account of yourself to Jesus when appearing before Him after He comes because you will insist that it's not supposed to be like that.

In ref. to my FULL post #349, it's only fair that you should copy all of it for your reply.
But since you chose to ignore it and call me names, here it is again so that all can see that your comments towards me are unjust:

From 349: "Lol....As a born again Christian, Jesus through His Holy Spirit within me, is 100% aware of EVERY moment of my life, whether I am awake or asleep. He will know more about me than I could ever possibly know about myself!! After all, I do tend to be very forgetful.
By the way, how many hairs do I have on my head....right now??

So then, if I'm to give to Him an account of myself upon His Glorious return, AFTER I am made to be Immortal for all eternity, I suppose all that I can say on that 24 hour Day is: "Well Jesus, I think that you know me better than I. Praise your Holy Name, thank you for saving me."

MY point is: judgment for we who are born again and do live [in Him] and believe in Him, are under chastisement DURING this present Age of God's Grace, NEVER eternal death.

Edit:
The only threat of a born again Christian losing their Gift of salvation, is by committing the act of the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
Heb. 10
26 For if we sin wilfully [to deny Jesus] after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that  DESPISED Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Earburner]

The GWTJ shall be judging of the DEAD, not the living (see Rev 20:12-15). It is the reward not judgment that is determined according to our faithfulness to Christ in life before we die. Our deeds, whether they be good or evil are judged in life that we might receive reward or condemnation and death at the GWTJ of God according to what is written in the books and the book of life. If evil, we shall receive the reward of damnation in the lake of fire. If good we shall receive the reward of everlasting life with Christ on the new earth prepared for us from the foundation of the world.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



The words of warning are written for the church because the church as it exists on this earth is inhabited by both those who are born again through the Spirit of Christ and possess eternal life as well as those who have not been born again and are still destined to die (be cut off). Just as the Old Covenant body, Israel of Old also had both those of faith as well as those in unbelief. Those of Old who were not of faith were cut off, and in the same manner so too shall Gentiles be cut off from the Covenant body of Christ, called church if they are not born again but remain in unbelief. It seems you believe that everyone in the church as it exists on this earth are born again but can lose their eternal salvation! We have the assurance of Christ that when we are born again, possessing eternal life through the power of His Spirit in us, we shall never be cut off as you believe because Christ makes intercession unto God for them.

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



Eternal life is given the moment we believe in Christ and have been born again! Who is he that shall be faithful until death to receive the crown of life? When we believe Jesus is the Son of God we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE through Him. How? Because He has already overcome the world by His sinless life, atoning sacrificial blood, and defeating of Satan and death. When we are found to be in Christ, we too have part in Him, overcomers with Him and have no fear of the second death. I don't THINK those of saving faith have ETERNAL, EVERLASTING LIFE through Christ....NO! I KNOW IT through the power of His Spirit in me!

1 John 5:5 (KJV) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10-12 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.



I'm not the one saying that we shall only have eternal life when we are resurrected immortal. That's why I gave you some verses telling us it is through spirit and not flesh that man is eternally saved. It is you not I that keeps repeating the same unbiblical doctrine again and again, then complaining when I give biblical support that we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE when we believe in Christ and have been born again. You don't seem to understand what eternal/everlasting life in Christ means, because you think eternal/everlasting life is not really eternal/everlasting life at all! It seems it doesn't matter how many passages and verses of Scripture prove this FACT; you continue to deny it! If you don't want to discuss the topic of eternal security through faith in Christ, then STOP repeating false doctrine telling us that eternal/everlasting life we possess in Christ shall only be ours through our resurrected flesh and is not ours NOW through the Spirit of Christ in us!

Amen!!
1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Earburner]

The GWTJ shall be judging of the DEAD, not the living (see Rev 20:12-15). It is the reward not judgment that is determined according to our faithfulness to Christ in life before we die. Our deeds, whether they be good or evil are judged in life that we might receive reward or condemnation and death at the GWTJ of God according to what is written in the books and the book of life. If evil, we shall receive the reward of damnation in the lake of fire. If good we shall receive the reward of everlasting life with Christ on the new earth prepared for us from the foundation of the world.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



The words of warning are written for the church because the church as it exists on this earth is inhabited by both those who are born again through the Spirit of Christ and possess eternal life as well as those who have not been born again and are still destined to die (be cut off). Just as the Old Covenant body, Israel of Old also had both those of faith as well as those in unbelief. Those of Old who were not of faith were cut off, and in the same manner so too shall Gentiles be cut off from the Covenant body of Christ, called church if they are not born again but remain in unbelief. It seems you believe that everyone in the church as it exists on this earth are born again but can lose their eternal salvation! We have the assurance of Christ that when we are born again, possessing eternal life through the power of His Spirit in us, we shall never be cut off as you believe because Christ makes intercession unto God for them.

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



Eternal life is given the moment we believe in Christ and have been born again! Who is he that shall be faithful until death to receive the crown of life? When we believe Jesus is the Son of God we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE through Him. How? Because He has already overcome the world by His sinless life, atoning sacrificial blood, and defeating of Satan and death. When we are found to be in Christ, we too have part in Him, overcomers with Him and have no fear of the second death. I don't THINK those of saving faith have ETERNAL, EVERLASTING LIFE through Christ....NO! I KNOW IT through the power of His Spirit in me!

1 John 5:5 (KJV) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10-12 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.



I'm not the one saying that we shall only have eternal life when we are resurrected immortal. That's why I gave you some verses telling us it is through spirit and not flesh that man is eternally saved. It is you not I that keeps repeating the same unbiblical doctrine again and again, then complaining when I give biblical support that we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE when we believe in Christ and have been born again. You don't seem to understand what eternal/everlasting life in Christ means, because you think eternal/everlasting life is not really eternal/everlasting life at all! It seems it doesn't matter how many passages and verses of Scripture prove this FACT; you continue to deny it! If you don't want to discuss the topic of eternal security through faith in Christ, then STOP repeating false doctrine telling us that eternal/everlasting life we possess in Christ shall only be ours through our resurrected flesh and is not ours NOW through the Spirit of Christ in us!

Let's get this foolishness of Born again Christians who have died in faith of being DEAD IN THEIR GRAVES straightened out right now.

Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH him.

 

[rwb]

Let's get this foolishness of Born again Christians who have died in faith of being DEAD IN THEIR GRAVES straightened out right now.

Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH him.

The only part of born-again Christians dead and buried is natural/physical flesh that is destined to death (forever, if not born again) from the fall. Only the spirit of born-again Christians, as living souls without physical form is with God in paradise (heavenly realm) after our mortal body dies. Only the spirit alive (living soul) returns to God after our mortal body has died.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:36 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It is the spiritual body of living souls alive in heaven after mortal (bodily) death that Jesus will bring with Him when He returns. Because life comes from spirit and not flesh. Through our eternal spirit our flesh changed from mortal and corruptible to immortality & incorruptible will return to life again, now fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Earburner]

The only part of born-again Christians dead and buried is natural/physical flesh that is destined to death (forever, if not born again) from the fall. Only the spirit of born-again Christians, as living souls without physical form is with God in paradise (heavenly realm) after our mortal body dies. Only the spirit alive (living soul) returns to God after our mortal body has died.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:36 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It is the spiritual body of living souls alive in heaven after mortal (bodily) death that Jesus will bring with Him when He returns. Because life comes from spirit and not flesh. Through our eternal spirit our flesh changed from mortal and corruptible to immortality & incorruptible will return to life again, now fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It's not that we all can not understand the reality of what Jesus means in John 11:26
(And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?)
but rather it's what the unsaved religious leaders of church-ianity have foolishly fabricated about everyone being given an eternal immortal soul. It is that foul concept that reeks havoc with everyone's brain, causing them to falsely believe that the breath of life is something of a portion of the Spirit of God.

However the truth is, God BREATHED into Adam's nostrils Oxygenated air, and "man BECAME a living soul [a living being]", created with innocence of mind, having NO knowledge of evil or good.
That is WHY Jesus said that he was NOT GOOD, and therefore being the LAST Adam, he truly was ONLY innocent, aka "the Lamb of God".

What most Christians do not realize is that prior to the death/resurrection of Jesus, NO MAN could have the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.
John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[WPM]

The only part of born-again Christians dead and buried is natural/physical flesh that is destined to death (forever, if not born again) from the fall. Only the spirit of born-again Christians, as living souls without physical form is with God in paradise (heavenly realm) after our mortal body dies. Only the spirit alive (living soul) returns to God after our mortal body has died.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:36 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It is the spiritual body of living souls alive in heaven after mortal (bodily) death that Jesus will bring with Him when He returns. Because life comes from spirit and not flesh. Through our eternal spirit our flesh changed from mortal and corruptible to immortality & incorruptible will return to life again, now fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The context is the last trumpet. That is when we get our new spiritual bodies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The GWTJ shall be judging of the DEAD, not the living (see Rev 20:12-15). It is the reward not judgment that is determined according to our faithfulness to Christ in life before we die. Our deeds, whether they be good or evil are judged in life that we might receive reward or condemnation and death at the GWTJ of God according to what is written in the books and the book of life. If evil, we shall receive the reward of damnation in the lake of fire. If good we shall receive the reward of everlasting life with Christ on the new earth prepared for us from the foundation of the world.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Not all passages about the judgment contain the same details. As an amil, you should understand that. I expect premils to not understand that concept, but not you. Matthew 25:31-46 makes it clear that believers will be at the GWTJ as well. Do you think Matthew 25:41, which talks about unbelievers being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is talking about something different than Revelation 20:15, which talks about unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire?

The words of warning are written for the church because the church as it exists on this earth is inhabited by both those who are born again through the Spirit of Christ and possess eternal life as well as those who have not been born again and are still destined to die (be cut off).

Wrong. The church is the body of Christ. The bride of Christ. How can you think that anyone who is not born again is in the body of Christ? That is not the case. Tell me, who do you think are the people represented by branches that are grafted into the good olive tree? You think that includes people who are not born again? If so, how can that be the case when being grafted into the good olive tree is analogous to being born again/saved?

Just as the Old Covenant body, Israel of Old also had both those of faith as well as those in unbelief. Those of Old who were not of faith were cut off, and in the same manner so too shall Gentiles be cut off from the Covenant body of Christ, called church if they are not born again but remain in unbelief.

You are very mistaken and are showing a lack of understanding of the new covenant. No unbeliever is part of the new covenant body of Christ. In order to become part of the new covenant body of Christ you must be born again.

It seems you believe that everyone in the church as it exists on this earth are born again but can lose their eternal salvation!

Yes, because, unlike you, I don't try to have people who are not born again in the church! That is nonsense! Only born again people are in the church.

Eternal life is given the moment we believe in Christ and have been born again! Who is he that shall be faithful until death to receive the crown of life? When we believe Jesus is the Son of God we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE through Him. How? Because He has already overcome the world by His sinless life, atoning sacrificial blood, and defeating of Satan and death. When we are found to be in Christ, we too have part in Him, overcomers with Him and have no fear of the second death. I don't THINK those of saving faith have ETERNAL, EVERLASTING LIFE through Christ....NO! I KNOW IT through the power of His Spirit in me!

1 John 5:5 (KJV) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10-12 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

None of that says that after you first put your faith in Christ it is ensured that you will continue to have faith in Christ until your death. Your denial of the reality of free will is the reason you believe that. You don't think that people use their free will to choose to believe in Christ in the first place, so, because of that, you naturally aren't going to think that they can ever change their minds. You believe God changed their minds to believe in Christ and causes them to continue believing until their deaths as if human beings are just puppets or robots.

I'm not the one saying that we shall only have eternal life when we are resurrected immortal.

I'm not saying that, either. And I have told you this. But, you have terrible reading comprehension skills. In terms of spiritual eternal life, that is assured once someone has been faithful unto death. The dead in Christ who are physically dead but spiritually alive in heaven now have eternal life. They, like all of us, will inherit eternal bodily life with immortal bodies when Jesus returns.

That's why I gave you some verses telling us it is through spirit and not flesh that man is eternally saved. It is you not I that keeps repeating the same unbiblical doctrine again and again, then complaining when I give biblical support that we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE when we believe in Christ and have been born again.

You ignore or twist so much scripture to keep your doctrine afloat. Such as trying to claim that people who are not born again are in the church. How can you believe such nonsense? You are blinded by Calvinist false teaching.

You don't seem to understand what eternal/everlasting life in Christ means, because you think eternal/everlasting life is not really eternal/everlasting life at all! It seems it doesn't matter how many passages and verses of Scripture prove this FACT; you continue to deny it!

You continue to deny the MANY verses which warn about falling away from the faith, as if that isn't actually possible. You butcher Romans 11 as if when it talks about Gentile believers being cut off, it's talking about people who are not born again being cut off. But, you can't be grafted into the olive tree in the first place unless you are born again.

If you don't want to discuss the topic of eternal security through faith in Christ, then STOP repeating false doctrine telling us that eternal/everlasting life we possess in Christ shall only be ours through our resurrected flesh and is not ours NOW through the Spirit of Christ in us!

I'm more than willing to discuss the topic, but I don't go out of my way to discuss it on this eschatology (not soteriology) forum like you do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In ref. to my FULL post #349, it's only fair that you should copy all of it for your reply.

I can quote whatever I want. No one is obligated to quote anyone else's full post. Get over yourself.

But since you chose to ignore it and call me names,

What names did I call you?

here it is again so that all can see that your comments towards me are unjust:

From 349: "Lol....As a born again Christian, Jesus through His Holy Spirit within me, is 100% aware of EVERY moment of my life, whether I am awake or asleep. He will know more about me than I could ever possibly know about myself!! After all, I do tend to be very forgetful.
By the way, how many hairs do I have on my head....right now??

So then, if I'm to give to Him an account of myself upon His Glorious return, AFTER I am made to be Immortal for all eternity, I suppose all that I can say on that 24 hour Day is: "Well Jesus, I think that you know me better than I. Praise your Holy Name, thank you for saving me."

MY point is: judgment for we who are born again and do live [in Him] and believe in Him, are under chastisement DURING this present Age of God's Grace, NEVER eternal death.

I never said that when we appear before Him that will be the time that He will deliberate and determine our eternal destiny. No, that will be determined before that. But, that doesn't change the fact that scripture portrays believers as appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. That will happen when Jesus returns, according to Jesus Himself in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's get this foolishness of Born again Christians who have died in faith of being DEAD IN THEIR GRAVES straightened out right now.

Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH him.

Did anyone in this thread claim that "Born again Christians who have died in faith" are "DEAD IN THEIR GRAVES"? I don't believe so. I mean, their bodies are, but not their souls and spirits.

 

[rwb]

The context is the last trumpet. That is when we get our new spiritual bodies.

No, that is when we get our immortal/incorruptible body of flesh that shall be made alive through our eternal spirit that God will bring with Him. Because without our eternal spirit giving life to our new immortal/incorruptible body, our flesh profits nothing.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[rwb]

Wrong. The church is the body of Christ. The bride of Christ. How can you think that anyone who is not born again is in the body of Christ? That is not the case. Tell me, who do you think are the people represented by branches that are grafted into the good olive tree? You think that includes people who are not born again? If so, how can that be the case when being grafted into the good olive tree is analogous to being born again/saved?


You are very mistaken and are showing a lack of understanding of the new covenant. No unbeliever is part of the new covenant body of Christ. In order to become part of the new covenant body of Christ you must be born again.


Yes, because, unlike you, I don't try to have people who are not born again in the church! That is nonsense! Only born again people are in the church.

What and where is the Kingdom of God the Son of man shall send forth His angels to gather out of all things that offend and them which do iniquity? Notice the wicked must be severed from among the just, who are called the church and body/bride of Christ. If false professors of faith are not with faithful Christians in the body of Christ, His church and bride who are these saying Lord, Lord and prophesy in Christ's name, and in His name cast out devils, and done many wonderful works in His name, who will in the end hear Christ say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"???

Matthew 13:41 (KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:49 (KJV) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 7:21-22 (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23 (KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What and where is the Kingdom of God the Son of man shall send forth His angels to gather out of all things that offend and them which do iniquity?

You are not interpreting the passage correctly. Jesus is not talking about "them which do iniquity" being in the kingdom of God and then removing them from it. He's talking about everyone in the world being separated into two groups, with one group being those who are in the kingdom of God and the other group being those who are not in the kingdom of God. Stop making scripture contradict itself. You must be born again to be in the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5), so why do you have people who are not born again in the kingdom of God?

Notice the wicked must be severed from among the just, who are called the church and body/bride of Christ.

Yes. So? That doesn't mean they are actually part of the church. No scripture teaches that any unbeliever is part of the church, regardless of whether they think they are or not. The wicked will be separated from the just who are in the church.

If false professors of faith are not with faithful Christians in the body of Christ, His church and bride who are these saying Lord, Lord and prophesy in Christ's name, and in His name cast out devils, and done many wonderful works in His name, who will in the end hear Christ say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"???

They are people who think they are in the kingdom of God and body of Christ, but are not. They are instead included among the wicked and will be separated from the true Christians and placed with the rest of the wicked at the judgment.

Matthew 13:41 (KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

You obviously don't understand what this verse means. You apparently did not keep John 3:3-5 in mind when interpreting this verse. It's unfortunate that the verse is worded the way it is because it does give the impression that "them which do iniquity" are in the kingdom and then taken out of it. Of course, that can't be true since John 3:3-5 makes it clear that you must be born again in order to be in the kingdom of God. So, we have to interpret Matthew 13:41 in a way that doesn't contradict any other scriptures like John 3:3-5. And the way to do that is to not only look at Matthew 13:41, but also Matthew 13:49. Ironically, you did quote Matthew 13:49, but did not allow that verse to help your understanding of Matthew 13:41. All Jesus was saying in verse 41 is that at the end of the age the wicked will be separated from the just who are in the kingdom of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, that is when we get our immortal/incorruptible body of flesh that shall be made alive through our spirit that God will bring with Him. Because without the spirit giving us life, our flesh profits nothing.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Our immortal/incorruptible body will be a spiritual body in contrast to the natural body we have now. No one but Jesus has a spiritual body yet.

Paul contrasted the natural body and the spiritual body and indicated that the natural body is sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness while the spiritual body, in contrast, will be raised in incorruption, glory and power (1 Corinthians 15:42-44). And it will be immortal. No one but Jesus has an immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful spiritual body yet.

What 1 Thessalonians 4:14 is referring to are the souls and spirits of the dead in Christ whose bodies will be resurrected at that point and will then be changed to be immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful spiritual bodies.

 

[rwb]

You are not interpreting the passage correctly. Jesus is not talking about "them which do iniquity" being in the kingdom of God and then removing them from it. He's talking about everyone in the world being separated into two groups, with one group being those who are in the kingdom of God and the other group being those who are not in the kingdom of God. Stop making scripture contradict itself. You must be born again to be in the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5), so why do you have people who are not born again in the kingdom of God?

You're not answering the question! The passage says Christ will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that do iniquity. What and where is the Kingdom of God the Son of man shall send forth His angels to gather out of all things that offend and them which do iniquity, if not the church, that is His body/bride of Christ? His Kingdom is NOT of this world, but IN this world through the church, which is why this world along with all that is evil will be utterly destroyed by fire that shall come down from God out of heaven. Why bother to send His angels to gather out of this world all that is destined to be destroyed by fire anyway? No! Christ first sends His angels to gather out of the Kingdom of God that is the church/body/bride of Christ whosoever is there who have NOT been born again!

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 13:30 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:39-40 (KJV) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The tares are those who are with faithful saints in the church that is the body/bride of Christ. First Christ sends His angels to gather THEM out of the Kingdom of God, and the tares bundled to be burned up. While also calling all who have been born again to come up to meet Him in the air that they shall not be burned up with this world and all who remain in unbelief.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How is the Kingdom of God in this age of time manifested unto the world if not through physical flesh called church/body/bride of Christ here and now? That's how the Kingdom of God now, in this age of time, can be both IN the world, but not OF the world!