The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.

[rwb]

Our immortal/incorruptible body will be a spiritual body in contrast to the natural body we have now.

Prove this from the Word of God! What exactly is a spiritual body in contrast to natural body? It is through the Spirit of Christ within us that our spirit, when we have been born again, is eternally alive with Christ FOREVER! It is our spirit, through the Spirit of Christ in us that shall NEVER die. That's why Christ assures us the life we have through Him when we have been born again of His Spirit is eternal life.

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Romans 8:9 (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Earburner]

Did anyone in this thread claim that "Born again Christians who have died in faith" are "DEAD IN THEIR GRAVES"? I don't believe so. I mean, their bodies are, but not their souls and spirits.

Souls and spirits?? At the moment, which of the two is it that are asleep in Jesus right now? Or is it that you really do mean that all Born again Christians have both a soul and a spirit?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're not answering the question! The passage says Christ will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that do iniquity.

I addressed what I believe that passage means in detail. What more do you want? Your question isn't valid because it's based on a misunderstanding of what Jesus said.

What and where is the Kingdom of God the Son of man shall send forth His angels to gather out of all things that offend and them which do iniquity, if not the church, that is His body/bride of Christ?

Did you read anything I said in post 378? Apparently not. Just read that post again. Your question isn't even valid because you are misunderstanding what Jesus said. He was not talking about anyone in the kingdom of God/heaven being taken out of the kingdom of God/heaven, which only those who are born again are part of (John 3:3-5). It's talking about separating the wicked out from among those who are in the kingdom of God.

His Kingdom is NOT of this world, but IN this world through the church, which is why this world along with all that is evil will be utterly destroyed by fire that shall come down from God out of heaven. Why bother to send His angels to gather out of this world all that is destined to be destroyed by fire anyway?

Think about what you're saying here. You are conflating the world with the kingdom of God. What Jesus was saying is that the wicked in the world are going to be separated out from among those who are in the kingdom of God. How can you think that anyone except those who are born again are in the kingdom of God in light of what Jesus said in John 3:3-5? Please address this.

No! Christ first sends His angels to gather out of the Kingdom of God that is the church/body/bride of Christ whosoever is there who have NOT been born again!

Explain to me how anyone who is not born again can possibly be in the kingdom of God! That's not possible! Jesus Himself said that only those who are born again can see and enter the kingdom of God! (John 3:3-5). Please address this.

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 13:30 (KJV) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In that parable the field represents the world. It's talking about the saved and lost being together in the world until "the time of harvest" which represents the end of the age. It doesn't say both grow together in the kingdom of God/heaven. They both grow together in the world. At the end of the age the wicked will be separated out from those who are in the kingdom of God/heaven, which will reveal that they are not in the kingdom of God/heaven.

Matthew 13:39-40 (KJV) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The tares are those who are with faithful saints in the church that is the body/bride of Christ.

What do you mean here? Are you suggesting that you believe that the tares are in the church? If so, that is false. They are in the world, but not in the church and not in the kingdom of God.

First Christ sends His angels to gather THEM out of the Kingdom of God, and the tares bundled to be burned up.

How can they be gathered out of the kingdom of God when they are not in the kingdom of God in the first place because they are not born again? Do you not accept what Jesus taught in John 3:3-5 when He said no one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again? Are you really trying to claim that anyone who is not born again is in the kingdom of God?

While also calling all who have been born again to come up to meet Him in the air that they shall not be burned up with this world and all who remain in unbelief.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How is the Kingdom of God in this age of time manifested unto the world if not through physical flesh called church/body/bride of Christ here and now?

It is. But, only those who are born again are in the kingdom of God and the church. How can you not know this?

That's how the Kingdom of God now, in this age of time, can be both IN the world, but not OF the world!

It's in the world because those who are born again are in the world, but the kingdom and those who are in the kingdom are not of the world (not worldly, not evil, not earthly, etc.).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Prove this from the Word of God!

Hello? I already did! Do you not actually read anything I say? You keep telling me to do things I've already done.

Read the following carefully and objectively and follow the flow of what Paul is talking about here...

1 Corinthians 15:42
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

I highlighted the parts that talk about the natural body in red and the parts that talk about the spiritual body in blue. Notice in verses 42 to 44 how Paul contrasts the body that is sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness with the body that is raised in incorruption, glory and power. He proceeds to indicate that the body that is sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness is a natural body and the body that is raised in incorruption, glory and power is a spiritual body. This is very clear. Are you seeing it? Paul also indicated that the natural body is earthly and the spiritual body is heavenly. Then Paul goes on to indicate that the natural body, which he had previously indicated was corruptible, must put on incorruption, and he also indicated that the natural body is mortal and must put in immortality. So, Paul taught that the natural body like we have now is corruptible, dishonorable, weak, earthly and mortal. In contrast, he indicated that the spiritual body we will have after we are changed at the last trumpet when Jesus returns will be incorruptible, glorious, powerful, heavenly and immortal.

What exactly is a spiritual body in contrast to natural body?

See above.

It is through the Spirit of Christ within us that our spirit, when we have been born again, is eternally alive with Christ FOREVER! It is our spirit, through the Spirit of Christ in us that shall NEVER die.

We're talking about bodies here, not spirits. Why are you conflating our spirit with our body?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Souls and spirits??

You haven't heard of them? Are you somehow not aware that we all have a body, soul and spirit?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

At the moment, which of the two is it that are asleep in Jesus right now?

Only the body is asleep/dead. The soul is conscious in heaven with Jesus right now, as passages like Revelation 6:9-11 indicate.

Or is it that you really do mean that all Born again Christians have both a soul and a spirit?

Of course they do. Is 1 Thessalonians 5:23 in your Bible? How about Hebrews 4:12?

 

[rwb]

It's talking about separating the wicked out from among those who are in the kingdom of God.

How can the wicked be separated from those who are in the Kingdom of God if they are NOT with believers in the Kingdom of God? They are not separated from believers in the WORLD; they are separated from believers who have been born again of the Spirit of Christ who are spiritually in the Kingdom of God. They are separated because as Scripture repeatedly shows there are MANY who profess to be of Christ who have never been born again growing together with the church/body/bride of Christ during this age of time.

How can you think that anyone except those who are born again are in the kingdom of God in light of what Jesus said in John 3:3-5? Please address this.

This is your problem, and is what is blinding you from receiving what is plainly written. You believe the church on earth that spiritually represents the Kingdom of God in heaven is inhabited only by those who have been born again. So, you read the plethora of warnings to believers as if born again believers with ETERNAL LIFE could fall away and lose their eternal salvation. You don't understand the warnings are not so those who have eternal life will not fall away. Rather the warnings are so that in our lives we will receive God's blessings, rather than chastening from the Lord. Because the Lord chastens whom He loves. But He does not take away the ETERNAL LIFE they received through Christ the moment they believed and were born again.

Let me help you to better understand this verse. This is not saying that some who are not born again might spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God. The word 'see' is NOT to be defined as physical sight! It means to know, be aware, perceive through the power of being born again of the Spirit of Christ.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see [KNOW] the kingdom of God.

Neither can a man who is not born again of the Spirit of Christ spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God. That does not mean that only those who are born again of the Spirit can enter the church, that spiritually represents the Kingdom of God on this earth. That's why there are so many warnings in Scripture to watch and be on guard for many come in among the body of Christ here on this earth who are not born again. They are the ones the angels will gather out of the Kingdom of God (church/body/bride of Christ) when Christ comes again. They cannot spiritually enter the Kingdom of God in heaven, but they can and do physically enter into the representation of the Kingdom of God as it exists as the church on this earth.

John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You are conflating the world with the kingdom of God.

No, that's what you are doing! The Kingdom of God in this age of time is not of the world, and is called the church/body/bride of Christ, that is called to be separate from the world that is physical and destined to die.

What Jesus was saying is that the wicked in the world are going to be separated out from among those who are in the kingdom of God.

No, what Jesus is saying is that the wicked will be separated from among born again believers who are physically together and called the church/body/bride of Christ in this world. Because the wicked though physically in the church/body/bride of Christ have never been born again, never shall they enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, because when Christ comes again, they will be physically cast out of the Kingdom of God forever to be burned up.

In that parable the field represents the world. It's talking about the saved and lost being together in the world until "the time of harvest" which represents the end of the age. It doesn't say both grow together in the kingdom of God/heaven. They both grow together in the world. At the end of the age the wicked will be separated out from those who are in the kingdom of God/heaven, which will reveal that they are not in the kingdom of God/heaven.

It's true the field does represent the world. Both the children of the Kingdom of God with the tares, children of the devil grow together in this world, but when the Son of man sends His angels the children of the devil are NOT gathered out of THIS world, NO! The angels shall gather them out of the Kingdom of God that is physically in this world, but spiritually is NOT OF this world. As I've already said it makes no sense to gather them out of this world since this world is destined for fiery destruction anyway.

Matthew 13:38-41 (KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

What do you mean here? Are you suggesting that you believe that the tares are in the church? If so, that is false. They are in the world, but not in the church and not in the kingdom of God.

Of course there are tares among the wheat in the church as it physically exists in this age of time!

It's in the world because those who are born again are in the world, but the kingdom and those who are in the kingdom are not of the world (not worldly, not evil, not earthly, etc.)

Why then is Christ going to send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that work iniquity? According to you, there cannot be anything that offends or workers of iniquity in the Kingdom of God even as it is physically represented as the church/body/bride of Christ in this world???

 

[rwb]

Hello? I already did! Do you not actually read anything I say? You keep telling me to do things I've already done.

Read the following carefully and objectively and follow the flow of what Paul is talking about here...

1 Corinthians 15:42
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

I highlighted the parts that talk about the natural body in red and the parts that talk about the spiritual body in blue. Notice in verses 42 to 44 how Paul contrasts the body that is sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness with the body that is raised in incorruption, glory and power. He proceeds to indicate that the body that is sown in corruption, dishonor, and weakness is a natural body and the body that is raised in incorruption, glory and power is a spiritual body. This is very clear. Are you seeing it? Paul also indicated that the natural body is earthly and the spiritual body is heavenly. Then Paul goes on to indicate that the natural body, which he had previously indicated was corruptible, must put on incorruption, and he also indicated that the natural body is mortal and must put in immortality. So, Paul taught that the natural body like we have now is corruptible, dishonorable, weak, earthly and mortal. In contrast, he indicated that the spiritual body we will have after we are changed at the last trumpet when Jesus returns will be incorruptible, glorious, powerful, heavenly and immortal.


See above.


We're talking about bodies here, not spirits. Why are you conflating our spirit with our body?

Paul plainly tells us that when our natural body dies it is raised a 'spiritual body'! Why? Because there is both a natural body and spiritual body. That's why Paul writes elsewhere that when we are absent from the natural body we are present with the Lord. How? Because after death our spirit returns to God alive (living soul), for those who have been born again. Is there any wonder that Paul speaks of his earnest desire to put off his natural body of death so that as spiritual body of Christ, he will be with Christ in heaven! Knowing that death of his natural mortal body cannot prevent him and all who are born again from being with the Lord a spiritual body, living souls in heaven, and that as spiritual body every born again believer shall come with Christ when He comes again to give life to our new immortal/incorruptible body of flesh that shall be fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can the wicked be separated from those who are in the Kingdom of God if they are NOT with believers in the Kingdom of God?

Because the kingdom of God is spiritual and only those who are born again see and enter the kingdom of God. Are you just not willing to acknowledge what Jesus taught in John 3:3-5? Tell me how anyone who is not born again can be in the kingdom of God in light of what Jesus said. Explain that to me. The wicked live with us who are born again and in the Kingdom of God in the world and they will be separated from us at the end of the age when Jesus returns. This should not be difficult to understand.

They are not separated from believers in the WORLD; they are separated from believers who have been born again of the Spirit of Christ who are spiritually in the Kingdom of God.

They will be at the end of the age. That is what Jesus said. I've already pointed this out. It seems that you are not reading everything I'm saying.

They are separated because as Scripture repeatedly shows there are MANY who profess to be of Christ who have never been born again growing together with the church/body/bride of Christ during this age of time.

They are beside us in the world, but they are absolutely not in the kingdom of God. Again, Jesus made it very clear that only those who are born again see and enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5)? Do you agree with Jesus about that?

This is your problem, and is what is blinding you from receiving what is plainly written.

This is rich coming from someone who is contradicting what is plainly written in John 3:3-5, which is that no one can see and enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again. You are just BLATANTLY contradicting that passage and you can't even see that.

You believe the church on earth that spiritually represents the Kingdom of God in heaven is inhabited only by those who have been born again.

LOL! Of course I believe that because it's true! Show me any scripture which teaches that anyone who is not born again is part of the church/body of Christ. You need to start putting your money where your mouth is and show me scripture that backs up your claims. You know, like I'm doing by showing you how you are contradicting John 3:3-5? What scripture do you have to support your claims?

So, you read the plethora of warnings to believers as if born again believers with ETERNAL LIFE could fall away and lose their eternal salvation.

So, here you go again with this. What does this have to do with Matthew 13:40-43 or Matthew 13:47-50 which relate to the separation of the just from the wicked at the end of the age?

You don't understand the warnings are not so those who have eternal life will not fall away.

Yes, they are. They are clearly addressed to born again believers. You can't tell me that "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" are not born again believers.

Rather the warnings are so that in our lives we will receive God's blessings, rather than chastening from the Lord.

You are clearly not even reading the warnings. Is that all you think is the result of being cut off because of unbelief as Paul wrote about in Romans 11? Just chastening from the Lord? No, of course it isn't. Being grafted into the good olive tree represents being saved and being in the kingdom of God. Paul warned that believers who are grafted in can be cut off because of unbelief. He said that in Romans 11:22 in relation to Gentile believers.

Because the Lord chastens whom He loves

Yes, He does. That's what Jesus said in Revelation 3:19.

. But He does not take away the ETERNAL LIFE they received through Christ the moment they believed and were born again.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said figuratively that He would vomit anyone in the church of the Ladodiceans out of His mouth if they did not repent? These are the same people that He was talking about right before He said "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.". Do you think it's just automatic that they would repent? It seems clear to me that it was not and if they did not repent, it's hard to imagine them still having a relationship with Christ after figuratively being vomited out of His mouth.

Let me help you to better understand this verse.

I don't need your help to understand it, that's for sure. But, I'll see what you have to say...

This is not saying that some who are not born again might spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God.

Of course it's not. That's what I've been trying to tell you. Only those who are born again enter the kingdom of God, but your understanding of the parables in Matthew 13 has the wicked in the kingdom of God and being taken out of it. That's not possible since the wicked cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The word 'see' is NOT to be defined as physical sight!

Of course. I did not say otherwise. Why do you waste so much time with strawman arguments? I'd love to know.

It means to know, be aware, perceive through the power of being born again of the Spirit of Christ.

Of course.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see [KNOW] the kingdom of God.

Neither can a man who is not born again of the Spirit of Christ spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God.

Hello? So, why do you have the wicked in the kingdom of God and being gathered out of it in Matthew 13:41? When you read the similar parable in Matthew 13:47-50 you can see that it's not talking about the wicked being in the kingdom of God and taken out of it. It's talking about the wicked being separated from those who are in the kingdom of God.

That does not mean that only those who are born again of the Spirit can enter the church, that spiritually represents the Kingdom of God on this earth.

My goodness! Yes, it does! You can't be serious! Jesus explicitly said that "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). But, here you are saying that someone who is not born again can enter the kingdom of God. No! That blatantly contradicts what Jesus said. You need to stop making scripture contradict itself.

That's why there are so many warnings in Scripture to watch and be on guard for many come in among the body of Christ here on this earth who are not born again. They are the ones the angels will gather out of the Kingdom of God (church/body/bride of Christ) when Christ comes again.

They will not be gathering anyone out of the kingdom of God, they will be separating the wicked out from among those who are in the kingdom of God.

They cannot spiritually enter the Kingdom of God in heaven, but they can and do physically enter into the representation of the Kingdom of God as it exists as the church on this earth.

John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You are making things up! No scripture says what you are saying here. Do you think you're talking to someone who has never read the Bible and will just accept whatever you say? Show me the scripture that you think backs up your claim.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, that's what you are doing!

You are definitely the one doing that! The saved and lost are together in the world, but NOT in the kingdom of God! This is elementary stuff that you are not understanding. I'm truly amazed at this.

The Kingdom of God in this age of time is not of the world, and is called the church/body/bride of Christ, that is called to be separate from the world that is physical and destined to die.

So, how can anyone who is not born again be in the kingdom of God in this age of time then? It's not possible. But, you say it is. But, you have no scripture to back up that claim. Your post is filled with your own words that contradict the word of God.

No, what Jesus is saying is that the wicked will be separated from among born again believers who are physically together and called the church/body/bride of Christ in this world.

What?! You are saying the wicked are part of the church/body/bride of Christ? Absolutely not! That is outrageous! Who taught you this nonsense?

Because the wicked though physically in the church/body/bride of Christ

Physcially in the church/body/bride of Christ? What in the world are you talking about? Where does scripture ever teach such a thing?

It's true the field does represent the world. Both the children of the Kingdom of God with the tares, children of the devil grow together in this world,

Think about what you just said here. To this point you've been saying that the wicked, represented by the tares, are in the kingdom of God. Yet, it says they are the children of the devil rather than children of the kingdom of God. Why do you have children of the devil in the kingdom of God? You need to take a step back and prayerfully think about what you're saying.

but when the Son of man sends His angels the children of the devil are NOT gathered out of THIS world, NO!

They will be separated out from those who are born again in the kingdom of God and then appear before Jesus to be judged, just as is described in Matthew 25:31-46.

The angels shall gather them out of the Kingdom of God that is physically in this world, but spiritually is NOT OF this world.

There is no kingdom of God that is physically in this world. Where do you get your ideas from? As Paul said, "the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17).

As I've already said it makes no sense to gather them out of this world since this world is destined for fiery destruction anyway.

Matthew 13:38-41 (KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

What Jesus meant is what He said in the similar parable that followed that one. He said "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just". He was just talking about separating the wicked from the just who are in His kingdom. Only the just are in His kingdom, but the wicked live with us in the world. They will be separated from us when Jesus comes at the end of the age. That is what Jesus was saying. The kingdom of God consists only of those who are born again which are those who experience "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit".

Of course there are tares among the wheat in the church as it physically exists in this age of time!

They might be physically among us, but not spiritually, which is what matters. The only people in the church/body of Christ and the kingdom of God are born again believers. That is a fact. How can you deny it?

Why then is Christ going to send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that work iniquity? According to you, there cannot be anything that offends or workers of iniquity in the Kingdom of God even as it is physically represented as the church/body/bride of Christ in this world???

At the end of the age when Jesus returns it will have already been determined before that time who is part of His kingdom and who is not. Only those who are born again are in His kingdom. The ones who think they are part of the church and the kingdom and the ones who pretend to be, along with all of the wicked, will be separated from those who are in the kingdom of God. They are not in the kingdom of God because only those who are born again enter the kingdom of God, as Jesus clearly said in John 3:5. Why are you willing to contradict what Jesus said by having people who are not born again being allowed entrance into the kingdom of God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul plainly tells us that when our natural body dies it is raised a 'spiritual body'!

No, he does not! Why did you not address a single word I said in my post? Are you afraid to address any challenges to your view? You should be willing to do that.

The following passage relates to the resurrection of the dead, which does not happen when our natural body dies!

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You are contradicting the context of this passage. Paul is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead here. You agree that the bodily resurrection of the dead will occur when Jesus returns, don't you? If so, how can you think the above passage refers to what happens right after people die? It clearly does not since that is not when people are bodily resurrected.

What Paul is saying here is that when the resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs, which he taught will happen when Jesus comes at the last trumpet, they will be resurrected with bodies that are incorruptible, glorious and powerful and he says their bodies will be spiritual bodies at that point. That is when the change in our bodies will occur from being natural bodies that are corruptible, dishonorable, weak and mortal to spiritual bodies that are incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal.

Why? Because there is both a natural body and spiritual body. That's why Paul writes elsewhere that when we are absent from the natural body we are present with the Lord.

When we are absent from the body, that means we have no body at that point. It is our souls and spirits that are then present with the Lord. We can see a description of the souls of the dead in Christ described in Revelation 6:9-11. I would acknowledge that we can't currently comprehend how people can exist without bodies, but they do. You can't say that someone is absent from the body, but still has a body. No, Paul was saying that our souls and spirits go to be with the Lord when our bodies die.

How? Because after death our spirit returns to God alive (living soul), for those who have been born again. Is there any wonder that Paul speaks of his earnest desire to put off his natural body of death so that as spiritual body of Christ, he will be with Christ in heaven!

He never speaks of having a spiritual body immediately after death. Never! The context of having spiritual bodies is in relation to when the bodily resurrection of the dead occurs and that will not occur until Jesus returns. Look more carefully at the context of 1 Corinthians 15:42-44. You are somehow missing that it is in relation to the bodily resurrection of the dead. And that clearly does not happen until Jesus returns (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17).

Knowing that death of his natural mortal body cannot prevent him and all who are born again from being with the Lord a spiritual body, living souls in heaven, and that as spiritual body every born again believer shall come with Christ when He comes again to give life to our new immortal/incorruptible body of flesh that shall be fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth.

Nothing you're saying can be found taught in scripture anywhere. Which is why you are not quoting any scripture to back up your claim. How about exegeting 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 like I did in post 384 so we can see exactly how you are interpreting the passage? Or, at least verses 42-44.

 

[rwb]

Because the kingdom of God is spiritual and only those who are born again see and enter the kingdom of God.

EXACTLY! The wicked and the righteous are together in the Kingdom of God as it is manifested physically as the church/body/bride of Christ in this world. That's why Christ will send His angels to gather out of HIS KINGDOM, not the world, all things that offend and them that work iniquity.

The wicked live with us who are born again and in the Kingdom of God in the world and they will be separated from us at the end of the age when Jesus returns.

The wicked are together with the righteous in the church/body/bride of Christ as it is made known in this world. Only the righteous have been born again and SPIRITUALLY belong to the Kingdom of God through the Spirit of Christ in us. The wicked who have not been born again belong PHYSICALLY to the Kingdom of God through their mortal flesh that is destined to be burned up. Both spiritual and physical are together in the church that is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God on this earth. That's why Christ will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that work iniquity!

Show me any scripture which teaches that anyone who is not born again is part of the church/body of Christ.

There are many verses and passages that show us many who have not been born again is part of the church/body/bride of Christ as it is known in this world. I'll give you two! Listen to the words Paul speaks to the church calling it the flock/church of God, warning that wolves would enter in among the church, and even so who profess to be born again shall arise to draw away disciples after them.

Acts 20:28-31 (KJV) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Why would Christ warn His disciples to beware of those who are false coming as prophets who shall be among them in the church, who are ravening wolves. Are you really so foolish to ignore Christ's warnings pretending that only those who are born again are among the church/body/bride of Christ which is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God in this world? Surely you cannot be that clueless???

Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Yes, they are. They are clearly addressed to born again believers. You can't tell me that "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" are not born again believers.

The warnings are addressed to the CHURCH that is the body/bride of Christ on this earth, and as long as the church is in this world it will have both those who HAVE ETERNAL LIFE (holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling) being born again of Christ's Spirit, and also those who remain in unbelief (wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, workers of iniquity). The Kingdom of God manifested as the church/body/bride of Christ on this earth shall never be pure and without sinners until Christ comes again and gathers out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that work iniquity. Then and only then shall the Kingdom of God as the church/body/bride of Christ be pure and undefiled in the age to come.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said figuratively that He would vomit anyone in the church of the Ladodiceans out of His mouth if they did not repent?

EXACTLY! They claim to be the born-again church/body/bride of Christ, but are in fact neither cold nor hot, because they are in unbelief (wicked with the righteous) giving lip service to God without conviction of heart. But they are still addressed as the church on earth, that is representative of the Kingdom of God on this earth. The Lord promises to rebuke and chasten them unless they repent and prove themselves on fire for doing the deeds of God.

Revelation 3:17-19 (KJV) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

So, why do you have the wicked in the kingdom of God and being gathered out of it in Matthew 13:41? When you read the similar parable in Matthew 13:47-50 you can see that it's not talking about the wicked being in the kingdom of God and taken out of it. It's talking about the wicked being separated from those who are in the kingdom of God.

Because Scripture shows us the wicked are among born again Christians in the church that is the physical manifestation of the Kingdom of God in this world. You cannot accept only verses and passages that agree with your doctrine and ignore everything that does not! In doing this you force contradiction and confusion into the Word of God.

The parable is showing us what the Kingdom of Heaven is being likened unto. When the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed all mankind (good fish & bad) without distinction, but not without exception, will be gathered together in the church/body/bride of Christ that is representative of the Kingdom of God/heaven in this world. Though all mankind (good fish & bad) can physically be in the body of Christ physically, only those who belong (have been born again) will spiritually be in the Kingdom of God in heaven. At the end of the world Christ will send forth His angels to sever the wicked (bad fish) from those who have been born again (good fish) and cast them into the furnace of fire.

Matthew 13:47-52 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

In this way of understanding there is no contradiction and confusion but complete harmony of the parables.

Do you think you're talking to someone who has never read the Bible

I'm truly beginning to wonder?

 

[MonoBiblical]

EXACTLY! The wicked and the righteous are together in the Kingdom of God as it is manifested physically as the church/body/bride of Christ in this world. That's why Christ will send His angels to gather out of HIS KINGDOM, not the world, all things that offend and them that work iniquity.


The wicked are together with the righteous in the church/body/bride of Christ as it is made known in this world. Only the righteous have been born again and SPIRITUALLY belong to the Kingdom of God through the Spirit of Christ in us. The wicked who have not been born again belong PHYSICALLY to the Kingdom of God through their mortal flesh that is destined to be burned up. Both spiritual and physical are together in the church that is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God on this earth. That's why Christ will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that work iniquity!



There are many verses and passages that show us many who have not been born again is part of the church/body/bride of Christ as it is known in this world. I'll give you two! Listen to the words Paul speaks to the church calling it the flock/church of God, warning that wolves would enter in among the church, and even so who profess to be born again shall arise to draw away disciples after them.

Acts 20:28-31 (KJV) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Why would Christ warn His disciples to beware of those who are false coming as prophets who shall be among them in the church, who are ravening wolves. Are you really so foolish to ignore Christ's warnings pretending that only those who are born again are among the church/body/bride of Christ which is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God in this world? Surely you cannot be that clueless???

Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.



The warnings are addressed to the CHURCH that is the body/bride of Christ on this earth, and as long as the church is in this world it will have both those who HAVE ETERNAL LIFE (holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling) being born again of Christ's Spirit, and also those who remain in unbelief (wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, workers of iniquity). The Kingdom of God manifested as the church/body/bride of Christ on this earth shall never be pure and without sinners until Christ comes again and gathers out of His Kingdom all things that offend and them that work iniquity. Then and only then shall the Kingdom of God as the church/body/bride of Christ be pure and undefiled in the age to come.



EXACTLY! They claim to be the born-again church/body/bride of Christ, but are in fact neither cold nor hot, because they are in unbelief (wicked with the righteous) giving lip service to God without conviction of heart. But they are still addressed as the church on earth, that is representative of the Kingdom of God on this earth. The Lord promises to rebuke and chasten them unless they repent and prove themselves on fire for doing the deeds of God.

Revelation 3:17-19 (KJV) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


Because Scripture shows us the wicked are among born again Christians in the church that is the physical manifestation of the Kingdom of God in this world. You cannot accept only verses and passages that agree with your doctrine and ignore everything that does not! In doing this you force contradiction and confusion into the Word of God.

The parable is showing us what the Kingdom of Heaven is being likened unto. When the gospel of the Kingdom of God is proclaimed all mankind (good fish & bad) without distinction, but not without exception, will be gathered together in the church/body/bride of Christ that is representative of the Kingdom of God/heaven in this world. Though all mankind (good fish & bad) can physically be in the body of Christ physically, only those who belong (have been born again) will spiritually be in the Kingdom of God in heaven. At the end of the world Christ will send forth His angels to sever the wicked (bad fish) from those who have been born again (good fish) and cast them into the furnace of fire.

Matthew 13:47-52 (KJV) Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

In this way of understanding there is no contradiction and confusion but complete harmony of the parables.


I'm truly beginning to wonder?

Do you understand that the wicked are punished in the kingdom of God?

 

[rwb]

Do you understand that the wicked are punished in the kingdom of God?

What exactly are you asking? The wicked are gathered out of the Kingdom of God by the angels at the end of this age (Mt 13:41). Are you saying they are punished in the Kingdom of God or asking if they will be punished there???

 

[MonoBiblical]

What exactly are you asking? The wicked are gathered out of the Kingdom of God by the angels at the end of this age (Mt 13:41). Are you saying they are punished in the Kingdom of God or asking if they will be punished there???

Hades is in the kingdom of God. But punishments don't last forever there. An everlasting chastisement is different than everlasting punishment, and would translate the Greek better.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

EXACTLY! The wicked and the righteous are together in the Kingdom of God as it is manifested physically as the church/body/bride of Christ in this world.

Goodness sakes. You first act like you agree with what I said, which was "the kingdom of God is spiritual and only those who are born again see and enter the kingdom of God" and then you proceed to say something that does not agree at all with what I said. I cannot believe how confused you are. Considering that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, why do you have the wicked in the kingdom of God? Can't you see how nonsensical that is? Please explain that.

That's why Christ will send His angels to gather out of HIS KINGDOM, not the world, all things that offend and them that work iniquity.

How can "them that work iniquity" be in the kingdom of God when Jesus made it very clear that only those who are born again are in the kingdom of God? Please address this. I'm not going to respond to anything else you said until you first explain how the wicked can possibly be in the kingdom of God in light of what Jesus said in John 3:3-5 in relation to no one being in the kingdom of God except those who are born again.

 

[rwb]

Hades is in the kingdom of God. But punishments don't last forever there. An everlasting chastisement is different than everlasting punishment, and would translate the Greek better.

I'm not sure from where you are coming to these conclusions. Please show from the Bible where we read that hades, being the place of the dead is in the Kingdom of God.

 

[rwb]

Goodness sakes. You first act like you agree with what I said, which was "the kingdom of God is spiritual and only those who are born again see and enter the kingdom of God" and then you proceed to say something that does not agree at all with what I said. I cannot believe how confused you are. Considering that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, why do you have the wicked in the kingdom of God? Can't you see how nonsensical that is? Please explain that.


How can "them that work iniquity" be in the kingdom of God when Jesus made it very clear that only those who are born again are in the kingdom of God? Please address this. I'm not going to respond to anything else you said until you first explain how the wicked can possibly be in the kingdom of God in light of what Jesus said in John 3:3-5 in relation to no one being in the kingdom of God except those who are born again.

This has become an exercise in futility! I've already addressed Jo 3:3-5 and won't be doing so again!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are many verses and passages that show us many who have not been born again is part of the church/body/bride of Christ as it is known in this world. I'll give you two! Listen to the words Paul speaks to the church calling it the flock/church of God, warning that wolves would enter in among the church, and even so who profess to be born again shall arise to draw away disciples after them.

Acts 20:28-31 (KJV) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Why would Christ warn His disciples to beware of those who are false coming as prophets who shall be among them in the church, who are ravening wolves. Are you really so foolish to ignore Christ's warnings pretending that only those who are born again are among the church/body/bride of Christ which is the manifestation of the Kingdom of God in this world? Surely you cannot be that clueless???

Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Okay, I changed my mind and decided to address one more thing that you said for now because of how stupid, clueless and foolish your comments are.

In that Acts 20:28-31 passage "the flock", which refers to the church, are clearly differentiated from the "grievious wolves". You are trying to say that the grievious wolves are part of the flock/church! Nonsense! Stupid foolishness! Clueless ignorance! What excuse do you have for butchering scripture so badly? Just because they are false prophets living among us does not mean they are in the church/body of Christ with us. They are trying to deceive people to leave the church/body of Christ and "draw away disciples after them" in their own false religion/cult/philosophy apart from the church/body of Christ. They are not in the church/body/bride of Christ. You are so terribly confused. You need to go back to the drawing board and start over again and clear the nonsense out of your mind and look at all of this objectively for once.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This has become an exercise in futility! I've already addressed Jo 3:3-5 and won't be doing so again!

It's futile to get you to be honest with scripture! You have people who are NOT born again in the kingdom of God despite Jesus saying no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born again! A clear contradiction! No wonder you don't want to talk about this anymore. I suspect that, deep down, you know that makes no sense but you're too prideful to admit it and would rather stick with your nonsensical interpretations than admit you are mistaken about this.

 

[MonoBiblical]

I'm not sure from where you are coming to these conclusions. Please show from the Bible where we read that hades, being the place of the dead is in the Kingdom of God.

[Luk 16:20-25 KJV] 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.