The Third Woe

[Trekson]

Aaah, you were doing so good...until your "As we all know..." paragraph!

That common "70th week" doctrine--that many do indeed believe, but do not "know"-- is unfortunately part of the "destructive heresies" originally taught by the "false teachers" spoken of by Peter, resulting in the "lie" and "strong delusion" ("as we all know") crowd foretold by Paul. All of which is also prophecy and the word of God, not to be continually kicked down the road ahead as if it did not include the many members and many generations of the Church that followed--which most still do even to this day.

But I am not going to argue, I am just going to state the actual truth--which God has not left never to be revealed, but has in fact also included in prophecy, as it is written of these times in particular. Here is what is actually true:

Daniel equated the seventy weeks or seven years--or whatever so many have imagined--as also being three times, in the phrase: "a time, times, and half a time"...which are the three times of Christ which Jesus stated, saying, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third I shall be perfected." Which are not three advents, but three acts occurring in this world over all of "time" from the beginning unto the end--"time" which is divided in "half." Which is also that "half" an hour of "silence in heaven."​

Very concisely then, the third woe, is a reference to what happens to evil and darkness and to the tares, when Jesus is perfected.​

A "time" in Daniel means 1 year. Time, times and 1/2 a time equates to 3 1/2 years and it is just a different way of saying 42 months or 1260 days. There is a reason why different time descriptions were used. Some folks like to throw them all into one three and a half year period, in the latter 3 1/2 yrs. of the 70th week but that isn't how they work., A week is 7 yrs. and 70 weeks is 490years. His tory has already shown that Christ was crucified on the last day of the 69th week or the 483rd year. The gap is right there in the context of Dan. 9:24-27 and it is prophesied by Christ in Matt. 23:39 because that hasn't been fulfilled yet. No gap = no church. The pause between the 69th week and the 70th week has always been part of God's plan.

 

[Trekson]

The Jews are the ones who will build the next temple. So, they are going to build it where the previous temple stood.

As I said, a portable tabernacle would suffice to fulfill the prophecies, however, I found this quote on the computer, "The Dome of the Rock is regarded as occupying the actual space where the Second Temple once stood, but some scholars disagree and instead claim that the Temple was located either just north of the Dome of the Rock, or about 200 m (660 feet) south of it, with access to the Gihon fresh water spring, or perhaps between the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque."

 

[Douggg]

As I said, a portable tabernacle would suffice to fulfill the prophecies, however, I found this quote on the computer, "The Dome of the Rock is regarded as occupying the actual space where the Second Temple once stood, but some scholars disagree and instead claim that the Temple was located either just north of the Dome of the Rock, or about 200 m (660 feet) south of it, with access to the Gihon fresh water spring, or perhaps between the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque."

The Gog/Magog event will basically end Islam as a major religion.

So right after Gog/Magog, the Jews are going to demolish the dome of the rock and Al-Aqsa mosque.

Some scholars think the rock was where the Holy of Holies chamber was located in the first two temples.

The Temple Institute, a organization in Israel dedicated to the rebuilding of the temple has been making preparations for decades. The Temple Institute of Jerusalem - Learn About the Temple Institute

In Revelation 11, John was told to measure the temple - why ? Perhaps as an indicator that initially it will be downsized to get the animal sacrifices and temple ordinances going as quickly as possible.

The Jews believe that the messiah will be part of the rebuild. So the Antichrist (who the Jews will initially mistake him as being their long awaited King of Israel messiah) will likely participate in its rebuild.

 

[ScottA]

A "time" in Daniel means 1 year. Time, times and 1/2 a time equates to 3 1/2 years and it is just a different way of saying 42 months or 1260 days. There is a reason why different time descriptions were used. Some folks like to throw them all into one three and a half year period, in the latter 3 1/2 yrs. of the 70th week but that isn't how they work., A week is 7 yrs. and 70 weeks is 490years. His tory has already shown that Christ was crucified on the last day of the 69th week or the 483rd year. The gap is right there in the context of Dan. 9:24-27 and it is prophesied by Christ in Matt. 23:39 because that hasn't been fulfilled yet. No gap = no church. The pause between the 69th week and the 70th week has always been part of God's plan.

You are interpreting. I was not.

 

[ewq1938]

Scripture says differently. The word "woe" isn't mentioned again after Rev. 12:12. If that doesn't clarify it for you, nothing will.

The word is not needed. It was foretold concerning the 3 woe trumps that were left, which is the 5th 6th and 7th trumps. The actual word WOE is not spoken in any of those trumps. It simply means woe or warning about the events those 4 trumpets cause to happen.

 

[ewq1938]

The Gog/Magog event will basically end Islam as a major religion.


In Revelation 11, John was told to measure the temple - why ? Perhaps as an indicator that initially it will be downsized to get the animal sacrifices and temple ordinances going as quickly as possible.

He was also to measure the worshippers...seems less literal. I see it as more like "take measure" of those who worship there like an an assessment of morality in and of the temple rather than measuring inches etc.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

[Button]

Dan. 12 tells us that in the latter days, knowledge will increase. I believe that includes both secular and prophetic knowledge as well.

A few of the prophecies given in Rev. couldn't even begin to be understood until we reached a level of technology that reveals them.

Please elaborate upon the Revelation prophecies you're referring to in the last of your remarks. I separated and bolded them for clarity.

Thanks.

 

[Douggg]

He was also to measure the worshippers...seems less literal. I see it as more like "take measure" of those who worship there like an an assessment of morality in and of the temple rather than measuring inches etc.

I agree, not a physical dimension of the individual worshippers.

Since the two witnesses will be testifying the first 1260 days of the 7 years, there will be animal sacrifices, praise and worship of the One True God by the Jews going on for most of that time. Until the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice and goes into the temple sanctuary building, sits, and claims to be God.

He will probably take a camera crew with him to broadcast his actions around the world.

 

[ewq1938]

Since the two witnesses will be testifying the first 1260 days of the 7 years,

There is no 7 years in my view but they are killed 3.5 days before the 7th trump which is the second coming so in 7 year view it should be the last 1260 days of the 7 years give or take a 3.5 day discrepancy.

 

[Trekson]

The Gog/Magog event will basically end Islam as a major religion.

So right after Gog/Magog, the Jews are going to demolish the dome of the rock and Al-Aqsa mosque.

Some scholars think the rock was where the Holy of Holies chamber was located in the first two temples.

The Temple Institute, a organization in Israel dedicated to the rebuilding of the temple has been making preparations for decades. The Temple Institute of Jerusalem - Learn About the Temple Institute

In Revelation 11, John was told to measure the temple - why ? Perhaps as an indicator that initially it will be downsized to get the animal sacrifices and temple ordinances going as quickly as possible.

The Jews believe that the messiah will be part of the rebuild. So the Antichrist (who the Jews will initially mistake him as being their long awaited King of Israel messiah) will likely participate in its rebuild.

I agree w/ most of that, but why do you think it's a separate war from Armageddon?

 

[Trekson]

The word is not needed. It was foretold concerning the 3 woe trumps that were left, which is the 5th 6th and 7th trumps. The actual word WOE is not spoken in any of those trumps. It simply means woe or warning about the events those 4 trumpets cause to happen.

Are the three woes contained within the 5th-7th trumpet, yes and satan being cast down is "literally identified as THE woe contained in the 7th along, with several other things which are "not" considered as the woe. The difference is that the 5th and 6th trump are singular events, t6he 7th has multiple parts to it and, imo, is why God needed to let us know which part was the third woe. Is the woe spoken in the events, no, but they are introduced as such which should be sufficient.

 

[Trekson]

Please elaborate upon the Revelation prophecies you're referring to in the last of your remarks. I separated and bolded them for clarity.

Thanks.

Rev. 9:16 (not tech, but quantity) 11;9-10, 12:14, 13:3 (basically every time it says something like "all the world"), 13:15, 17:10,15, 18, 18:11,18-19 (modern times), they shouldn't be hard to figure out when one takes them literally, as they should.

 

[Douggg]

I agree w/ most of that, but why do you think it's a separate war from Armageddon?

Gog/Magog will be a war directed against the nation of Israel.

Armageddon will be the kings of the earth gathering their armies to make war against Jesus and his army of heaven. Heavenly powers.

Take a look at Revelation 19:19...

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Douggg]

There is no 7 years in my view but they are killed 3.5 days before the 7th trump which is the second coming so in 7 year view it should be the last 1260 days of the 7 years give or take a 3.5 day discrepancy.

The two witnesses killed, bodies dead for 3 1/2 days, then their bodies brought back to life, then the strong earthquake in Jerusalem - all those things go together, I agree.

But.... Revelation 11:14 is not a continuation. Revelation 11:14, John switches back to talking about the woes.

There is noting contained in Revelation 11:3-13, that even remotely speaks about the events of the second woe.

The text of Revelation 11:14 could be misunderstood, when considering the wording.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

What John is meaning is that it has already been revealed to the reader what the second woe will be (back in Revelation 9). And that shortly it will be revealed to the reader what the third woe will be (in Revelation 12).

 

[dismas]

The Three Woes.

Rev. 8:13 - " And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is completed by the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."
The second woe is completed by the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 Rev.11:13-14. - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

The third woe sounds at the 7th trump ( the last time a “woe” is mentioned in Revelation in the KJ ) and is found in Rev. 11:15 - Just after the 7th trump sounds there is a short interlude in the narrative. The 7th trump completes the wrath of the Lamb and the angels are speaking forward in faith about what will come when the wrath of God is completed. Rev. 12:12 tells us what the third woe is" Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This third and final time a woe is mentioned is connected to the originating verse, Rev. 8:13 by the phrase, “woe to the inhabiters of the earth” (This is also the last time that phrase is used in the KJ). Since this is the case, shortly after this verse we find in Rev. 12:14 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

We also see in Rev. 13:5 that the Beast out of the Sea (the a/c) is given the equivalent time of 42 months.

As we all know the underlined times given means 3 1/2 yrs. So, here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week.

I've come up with another question and a possible, tentative alternative for my fellow futurists.
Who said that all the seals must be within the context of the 70th week? I've always believed they were but is there any scriptural "proof"?

Here's my tentative alternative. Could WW3 as shown in the 2nd seal begin the 70th week and could the a/c make a covenant based on that war that begins the week? The 1st seal doesn't imply that is when the covenant is signed. The a/c will need some time to earn his rep, so to speak and he comes conquering by deception, not war. Some event has to put him in the limelight for the folks in Rev. 13:4 to say what they do!
What do you guys think?

The 3rd woe is the 7th Trumpet. The woman being in the wilderness is when she is scattered to be 'gathered' after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:31).

The 'sign of the son of man' in Matt 24:30 is Rev 12:1's sign in heaven of the woman giving birth (which is occurring after the tribulation of those days). This sign of the son of man is the same as Isaiah 7 & 8's sign of Immanuel. Isa 7:18-25's has Israel turned into pasture for cows and bees - hence the child eating curds and honey - because the Assyrian has killed the king of Ephraim and Syria.

In other words, by the 7th Trumpet we have already seen the abomination of desolation. That occurs at the start of the 6th Trumpet. The killing of a third of humanity is the largest kill off recorded in Revelation. That is why Joel 1:4-9 says that the 'locusts' (which means an invading army) cut off the daily grain and wine offering. That is what causes the start of Dan 12:11's 1290 days. The 'locusts' of the 5th Trumpet cause the daily grain & wine to be cut off at the end of the 5 months/ start of the 6th Trumpet.

Rev 9:13-21 is presumably something akin to WWIII. After 30 days (30 days into the start of the 1290 days), then the Dan 9:27 covenant is confirmed. The Revelation 10 mighty angel is the angel Tyre of Ezek 28, and is the 'dragon' of Rev 12. It is the Rev 10 angel who is confirming the covenant as evidenced by his swearing an oath with an upraised hand (see Deut 8:18 among many other verses describing the swearing of the oath as starting the covenant).

So there will be 2 abomination of desolation events- one on each end of the 1290 days. One at the start of the 6th Trumpet and one at the start of the 7th Trumpet. See Zechariah 5 for how the idol/ ephah moves from Jerusalem to Shinar/ Mystery Babylon.

The beast from the sea and earth are coming up after the 1290 days and is occurring during the 1290 to 1335th day. (Meaning the the 2nd half of Dan 9:27's 7 years are the 42 months given the beast from the sea which is shortened to 45 days.)

The 2 witnesses 1260 days are during the 1st half of the covenant and yet also after the events of the 1st abomination at the start of the 6th Trumpet.

 

[Davy]

The Three Woes.

Rev. 8:13 - " And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is completed by the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."
The second woe is completed by the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 Rev.11:13-14. - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

The third woe sounds at the 7th trump ( the last time a “woe” is mentioned in Revelation in the KJ ) and is found in Rev. 11:15 - Just after the 7th trump sounds there is a short interlude in the narrative. The 7th trump completes the wrath of the Lamb and the angels are speaking forward in faith about what will come when the wrath of God is completed. Rev. 12:12 tells us what the third woe is" Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This third and final time a woe is mentioned is connected to the originating verse, Rev. 8:13 by the phrase, “woe to the inhabiters of the earth” (This is also the last time that phrase is used in the KJ). Since this is the case, shortly after this verse we find in Rev. 12:14 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

We also see in Rev. 13:5 that the Beast out of the Sea (the a/c) is given the equivalent time of 42 months.

As we all know the underlined times given means 3 1/2 yrs. So, here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week.

I've come up with another question and a possible, tentative alternative for my fellow futurists.
Who said that all the seals must be within the context of the 70th week? I've always believed they were but is there any scriptural "proof"?

Here's my tentative alternative. Could WW3 as shown in the 2nd seal begin the 70th week and could the a/c make a covenant based on that war that begins the week? The 1st seal doesn't imply that is when the covenant is signed. The a/c will need some time to earn his rep, so to speak and he comes conquering by deception, not war. Some event has to put him in the limelight for the folks in Rev. 13:4 to say what they do!
What do you guys think?

You've got it kind of backwards...

Each sounding of a Trumpet coincides with a Woe, representing a specific time period.

The 6th Trumpet and 2 Woe ends the 5th Trumpet-1st Woe period.

The 7th Trumpet and 3rd Woe ends the 6th Trumpet-2nd Woe period.

That means only certain 'events' are assigned to occur within... each Trumpet-Woe period.

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is the time of "great tribulation" with the "dragon" reigning over all nations for 42 months.

The 7th Trumpet-3rd Woe is the day of Lord Jesus' coming to do battle with His army, and gather His Church.

 

[Zao is life]

The Three Woes.

Rev. 8:13 - " And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is completed by the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."
The second woe is completed by the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 Rev.11:13-14. - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

In Joshua chapter 6 we read about seven priests - each has a trumpet - and each priest blows his trumpet once as the people march around the walls of Jericho, for six days. On the 7th day the people marched around the city 7 times, and at the time of the 7th march around the city and the blowing of the 7th trumpet, the people gave a great shout, and the walls of Jericho fell.

In the Revelation we read about seven angels - and each has a trumpet - and each angel blows his trumpet once, and at the time of the blowing of the 7th trumpet (and the pouring out of the 7th bowl of wrath), the cities of the nations fell (Revelation 16:19).

Just look how the Revelation is wrapped - and bear in mind that no one ever sealed a blank scroll, and the loosening of the 7th seal causes what was already written in the scroll to be seen - because that's when the scroll unrolled.

The second woe is the 6th trumpet, as you mentioned:

666 (6TH TRUMPET, 6TH BOWL OF WRATH, 6TH SEAL) | Armageddon |

6th TRUMPET - THE SECOND "WOE" - KEY SYMBOLS:

1. EUPHRATES - THE TIMING: I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

(Timing): And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year. (Revelation 9:13-15).

2. FIRE, SMOKE, AND BRIMSTONE: And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;

3. MOUTHS: and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. (Revelation 9:17-19).

6TH BOWL OF WRATH (Chapter 16) KEY SYMBOLS:

1. EUPHRATES: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

2. MOUTHS: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
​

--- Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments,
lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. ---

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Revelation 16:13-16).​

Compare Jesus's interjection in the middle of the 6th bowl of wrath with the loosening of the 6th seal:

6th SEAL:

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?"

777 | JUDGMENT / FINAL PLAGUE / BOWL OF WRATH

KEY SYMBOL: Lightnings and thunderings:

- seen at the time of the receiving of the Testament: lightnings, thunderings (Exodus 20:18).

- seen proceeding out of the throne in heaven: lightnings, thunderings, and voices (Revelation 4:5).

- seen when the 7th bowl of wrath is being poured out: lightnings, thunderings.

- seen when the 7th trumpet is blown: lightnings, thunderings, and the Ark of the Testament.

- seen when the 7th seal has been loosened (Revelation 8:5): lightnings, thunderings.

If you're searching for a tribulation that the world endures when God's wrath is being poured out rather than a great tribulation that the saints will endure at the hand of the beast before the rapture and before the 7th trumpet sounds, then you are not going to understand the Revelation properly.

Likewise if you are looking for a 7-year tribulation instead of only a 42 month tribulation.

Likewise if you are looking for a covenant "signed by "the Antichrist" with Israel."​

 

[Trekson]

Gog/Magog will be a war directed against the nation of Israel.

Armageddon will be the kings of the earth gathering their armies to make war against Jesus and his army of heaven. Heavenly powers.

Take a look at Revelation 19:19...

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Yes, Gog/Magog is the king of the north at that point leading up to Armageddon, the king of the south is in Dan. 11 and king of the east is identified by Rev. 9:16. Gog is the only king given a name because of his demonic longevity.

 

[Trekson]

The 3rd woe is the 7th Trumpet. The woman being in the wilderness is when she is scattered to be 'gathered' after the tribulation of those days (Matt 24:31).

The 'sign of the son of man' in Matt 24:30 is Rev 12:1's sign in heaven of the woman giving birth (which is occurring after the tribulation of those days). This sign of the son of man is the same as Isaiah 7 & 8's sign of Immanuel. Isa 7:18-25's has Israel turned into pasture for cows and bees - hence the child eating curds and honey - because the Assyrian has killed the king of Ephraim and Syria.

In other words, by the 7th Trumpet we have already seen the abomination of desolation. That occurs at the start of the 6th Trumpet. The killing of a third of humanity is the largest kill off recorded in Revelation. That is why Joel 1:4-9 says that the 'locusts' (which means an invading army) cut off the daily grain and wine offering. That is what causes the start of Dan 12:11's 1290 days. The 'locusts' of the 5th Trumpet cause the daily grain & wine to be cut off at the end of the 5 months/ start of the 6th Trumpet.

Rev 9:13-21 is presumably something akin to WWIII. After 30 days (30 days into the start of the 1290 days), then the Dan 9:27 covenant is confirmed. The Revelation 10 mighty angel is the angel Tyre of Ezek 28, and is the 'dragon' of Rev 12. It is the Rev 10 angel who is confirming the covenant as evidenced by his swearing an oath with an upraised hand (see Deut 8:18 among many other verses describing the swearing of the oath as starting the covenant).

So there will be 2 abomination of desolation events- one on each end of the 1290 days. One at the start of the 6th Trumpet and one at the start of the 7th Trumpet. See Zechariah 5 for how the idol/ ephah moves from Jerusalem to Shinar/ Mystery Babylon.

The beast from the sea and earth are coming up after the 1290 days and is occurring during the 1290 to 1335th day. (Meaning the the 2nd half of Dan 9:27's 7 years are the 42 months given the beast from the sea which is shortened to 45 days.)

The 2 witnesses 1260 days are during the 1st half of the covenant and yet also after the events of the 1st abomination at the start of the 6th Trumpet.View attachment 80826

Sorry bro, but you are way off on practically everything.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, Gog/Magog is the king of the north at that point leading up to Armageddon, the king of the south is in Dan. 11 and king of the east is identified by Rev. 9:16. Gog is the only king given a name because of his demonic longevity.

The Gog/Magog event will be right before the 7 years begin. Making war against Israel.

The Armageddon event will be at the end of the 7 years. Making war against Jesus and His army of Heaven, at the time of Jesus's return.