The Third Woe

[Trekson]

Re WW3 in your last block, wouldn't that be the 3rd woe (3 woes, 3 world wars)? (There is also a similarity of 3 woes with www world wide web? (Plus www in Hebrew is 666.))
In this scenario the 1st woe 1st world war, the 2nd woe is 2nd world war: Abaddon would be Hitler and scorpion-locusts Aryans and 5 months 5 years, and the Euphrates would be Atlantic. The 3rd woe 3rd world war? We would be between the 2nd and 3rd woes. The temple in Rev 11 hasn't been built yet. Though its just a possible scenario, I guess it doesn't really fit exactly.

They are all still future although another WW would be a woe in it's own way, it wouldn't be one of the three woes in the prophetic context.

 

[Trekson]

Just because the WOE is mentioned DOES NOT mean that they are the same event.

Revelation 12 is saying woe to the inhaviters of the earth for the DEVIL is come down to you. The three woes that within the 7th seal wrath of God...trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are Gods wrath on an unbelieving world.

Revelation 12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

You need to rethink this brother. Armageddon is happening at the 7th trumpets. It's God wrath and the Day of the Lord.

No, it's not. The events of the 7th trump ends w/ the first vial. They are all sequential. 7th seal = 1st trump, 7trump = 1 vial, 7th vial = Armageddon. Just saying, biblically the seven trumps are the wrath of the Lamb, Rev. 6:17 and the 7 vials are the wrath of God, Rev. 16:1. Since the bible separates the two, shouldn't we?

 

[Trekson]

Irrelevant? Christ fulfilled the Feast of Passover and and the Feast Fruits as He is first fruits of those that sleep. Pentecost will not be fulfilled until the harvest occurs


Negative. The fall Feast of Trumpets is for the Jews. Why do you think that there are 144,000 first fruits from 12 tribes. If there are first fruits, there will be a harvest.

You are correct and so is the 70th week for the Jews. However, the facts are undeniable Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Weeks. Pentecost was fulfilled on the 50th day when the HS, came but the church is still enjoying the fruits of the Holy Spirit's presence on earth. The three fall feasts are the only ones left to be fulfilled but they don't have to be fulfilled in the same year.

 

[The Light]

No, it's not. The events of the 7th trump ends w/ the first vial. They are all sequential. 7th seal = 1st trump, 7trump = 1 vial, 7th vial = Armageddon. Just saying, biblically the seven trumps are the wrath of the Lamb, Rev. 6:17 and the 7 vials are the wrath of God, Rev. 16:1. Since the bible separates the two, shouldn't we?

No, no............no, no,.......... No, NO NO. The wrath of Lamb IS the wrath of God. There is no separation.

You are not understanding what you are reading.

We could stop at the 7th trumpet. The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe which is the 7th seal wrath of God.

Revelation is written just like Genesis 7. When you read Genesis 7, you get 3 views of Noah loading the animals and 3 views of the flood. Each view gives you additional information of the same timeframe. There is only one time that Noah loads the animals, but we get three views with additional information. Same with the flood. There is only 1 flood, but we get three views with different information of the same flood.

In Revelation we get two views of the 1st six seals and we get two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.

Revelation is read like this. Rev 6 through 11 is read straight though. We'll skip Rev 12. Revelation 13 and 14 is the same timeframe as Revelation 6. When you are reading Revelation 15 it is the same timeframe of Revelation 7 plus the introduction of Revelation 8. When you are reading Revelation 16, it is the same timeframe as part of Revelation 8 and all of Revelation 9, 10, 11.

In short, the vials do follow the trumpets. It's over at the 7th trumpet. Just as it is all over at the 7th vial. They both happen in the same timeframe with different information.

 

[The Light]

You are correct and so is the 70th week for the Jews. However, the facts are undeniable Christ fulfilled all the spring feasts, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Weeks.

I'll say again. Has the dead in Christ been raptured to heaven. Has the alive Church that will remain been raptured to heaven. The spring and summer feasts are not fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the Church is raptured to heaven.

Pentecost was fulfilled on the 50th day when the HS, came but the church is still enjoying the fruits of the Holy Spirit's presence on earth.

I'll say again. Contrary to popular belief, that you've heard all your life, the Holy Spirit was not given to the Church on Pentecost. Pentecost is 50 days after Passover. But Pentecost does not fully come until 50 days after Pentecost. This is the Feast of New Wine. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church on the Feast of New Wine according to scripture. Read Acts 2 for the full story of the Holy Spirit and the Church.

Acts 2
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

The three fall feasts are the only ones left to be fulfilled but they don't have to be fulfilled in the same year.

As I said. There have been no harvests, so all of the spring and summer feasts have not been fulfilled.

The Feast of Trumpets is for the Jews. That is why there is 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, which are the seed of the woman Israel.
The rapture of the 12 tribes will occur on the Feast of Trumpets at the last trump blown at the celebration, a day of 100 trumpets.
Then there is the Day of Atonement which will happen after the wrath of God which ends at the 7th trumpet. Then there is Tabernacles. And you are correct that that they won't happen in the same year.

 

[Douggg]

Not correct Douggg. The 3rd woe is the Day of the Lord when Christ comes with the armies of heaven to Armageddon

Armageddon is the gathering, assembly, location place. It does not say in the text of Revelation 16:13-16 as being one of the "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" trumpets.

Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Revelation 16 describes the 7 vials of God's wrath - not the 7 trumpets. The three woes to the inhabiters of the earth are tied to the last 3 trumpets (i.e. 5th, 6th, 7th).

5th trumpet - first woe to the inhabiters of the earth
6th trumpet - second woe to the inhabiters of the earth
7th trumpet - third woe to the inhabiters of the earth

 

[Trekson]

Re WW3 in your last block, wouldn't that be the 3rd woe (3 woes, 3 world wars)? (There is also a similarity of 3 woes with www world wide web? (Plus www in Hebrew is 666.))
In this scenario the 1st woe 1st world war, the 2nd woe is 2nd world war: Abaddon would be Hitler and scorpion-locusts Aryans and 5 months 5 years, and the Euphrates would be Atlantic. The 3rd woe 3rd world war? We would be between the 2nd and 3rd woes. The temple in Rev 11 hasn't been built yet. Though its just a possible scenario, I guess it doesn't really fit exactly.

No, no............no, no,.......... No, NO NO. The wrath of Lamb IS the wrath of God. There is no separation.

You are not understanding what you are reading.

We could stop at the 7th trumpet. The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The trumpets and vials happen in the same timeframe which is the 7th seal wrath of God.

Revelation is written just like Genesis 7. When you read Genesis 7, you get 3 views of Noah loading the animals and 3 views of the flood. Each view gives you additional information of the same timeframe. There is only one time that Noah loads the animals, but we get three views with additional information. Same with the flood. There is only 1 flood, but we get three views with different information of the same flood.

In Revelation we get two views of the 1st six seals and we get two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.

Revelation is read like this. Rev 6 through 11 is read straight though. We'll skip Rev 12. Revelation 13 and 14 is the same timeframe as Revelation 6. When you are reading Revelation 15 it is the same timeframe of Revelation 7 plus the introduction of Revelation 8. When you are reading Revelation 16, it is the same timeframe as part of Revelation 8 and all of Revelation 9, 10, 11.

In short, the vials do follow the trumpets. It's over at the 7th trumpet. Just as it is all over at the 7th vial. They both happen in the same timeframe with different information.

That is one opinion, I have one of my own that I'm still working on, Why should we skip Rev. 12 and what about cps/ 17 & 18?

 

[Trekson]

I'll say again. Has the dead in Christ been raptured to heaven. Has the alive Church that will remain been raptured to heaven. The spring and summer feasts are not fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the Church is raptured to heaven.


I'll say again. Contrary to popular belief, that you've heard all your life, the Holy Spirit was not given to the Church on Pentecost. Pentecost is 50 days after Passover. But Pentecost does not fully come until 50 days after Pentecost. This is the Feast of New Wine. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church on the Feast of New Wine according to scripture. Read Acts 2 for the full story of the Holy Spirit and the Church.

Acts 2
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.


As I said. There have been no harvests, so all of the spring and summer feasts have not been fulfilled.

The Feast of Trumpets is for the Jews. That is why there is 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, which are the seed of the woman Israel.
The rapture of the 12 tribes will occur on the Feast of Trumpets at the last trump blown at the celebration, a day of 100 trumpets.
Then there is the Day of Atonement which will happen after the wrath of God which ends at the 7th trumpet. Then there is Tabernacles. And you are correct that that they won't happen in the same year.

Sorry, but Pentecost is 50 days after the feast of weeks, not Passover. The 1/3 of Israel that will be saved are part of those of Rev. 12:14, well before Christ's actual arrival. It's the a/c's setting up the AoD in Rev. 13:14-15 that opens their spiritual eyes. The Qumran scroll is "not" scripture and shouldn't be the base for anyone's beliefs.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I don't disagree that sadly 2/3 of the Jews will die during the great tribulation.

But that is not what the 7 months of Ezekiel 39:11-12 is about. Those 7 months are Israel burying the dead of Gog's army (verse11).

So you are saying that Gog's dead army who warred against Christ, comes before the GT? Disagree. These are all who He wars with when He comes close to the end of the GT (at the 7th Trumpet, which then releases the 7 bowls of wrath), Armageddon. Actually all the billions of unbelievers are scattered over the planet at the end of the GT if they weren't incinerated. I'm thinking not just Israel are burying dead in the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[The Light]

Sorry, but Pentecost is 50 days after the feast of weeks, not Passover.

The Feast of Weeks is Pentecost, Shavuot.
The period known as the "Seven Weeks" or "Counting of the Omer" is a biblically significant timeframe that spans from the Feast of Passover to the Feast of Pentecost, also known as Shavuot. This period is rooted in the agricultural and spiritual rhythms of ancient Israel and holds deep theological significance.

And yet Pentecost is not fully come in until 50 after Pentecost, which is the Feast of New Wine when the Holy Spirit was given to the Church.

The 1/3 of Israel that will be saved are part of those of Rev. 12:14, well before Christ's actual arrival.

The 1/3 that will be saved are all of those from Israel, the woman, that flee to a place of protection.

It's the a/c's setting up the AoD in Rev. 13:14-15 that opens their spiritual eyes.

Yes.

The Qumran scroll is "not" scripture and shouldn't be the base for anyone's beliefs.

Never mentioned it.

 

[The Light]

That is one opinion, I have one of my own that I'm still working on

Your opinion will change if you get to the point where you realize that the trumpets happen in the same timeframe as the vials.

In other words, the 7 trumpets are not followed by the 7 vials.

, Why should we skip Rev. 12 and what about cps/ 17 & 18?

I was skipping Rev 12 because it goes from the time of Josephs dream until the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. I was skipping to reduce confusion.

As for Rev 17 and 18 they occur during the 1st 6 seals. They do not occur in the 7th seal.

 

[The Light]

Armageddon is the gathering, assembly, location place. It does not say in the text of Revelation 16:13-16 as being one of the "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" trumpets.

If you understood that the 7 trumpets are not followed by the 7 vials, .............you would understand.

The 7 trumpets are Gods wrath that occur in the 7th seal.
The 7 vials are also Gods wrath that occur in the 7th seal.

You are getting two views of the same timeframe with different information.

It's all over when the 7th trumpet sounds. Armageddon is already OVER. We don't need the vials to understand what has happened. The vials are just a different vision of the same timeframe as the trumpets.

When the 7th sounds it's OVER, finished, done. Armageddon is over.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 16 describes the 7 vials of God's wrath - not the 7 trumpets.

Both are Gods wrath. It's just a different vision of the same timeframe with different information.

When the 7th trumpet sounds......it's over. Armageddon is over.
Then you get another vision of the same timeframe with the vials.
When the 7th vial is poured out it's also over. Two visions of the same timeframe with different information.

The three woes to the inhabiters of the earth are tied to the last 3 trumpets (i.e. 5th, 6th, 7th).

5th trumpet - first woe to the inhabiters of the earth
6th trumpet - second woe to the inhabiters of the earth
7th trumpet - third woe to the inhabiters of the earth

And when the 7th trumpet sounds.......it's over. We don't need the vials to be poured out as they are a different vision of the same timeframe with different information.

 

[Douggg]

So you are saying that Gog's dead army who warred against Christ, comes before the GT? Disagree. These are all who He wars with when He comes close to the end of the GT (at the 7th Trumpet, which then releases the 7 bowls of wrath), Armageddon. Actually all the billions of unbelievers are scattered over the planet at the end of the GT if they weren't incinerated. I'm thinking not just Israel are burying dead in the Millennial Kingdom.

Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:1-6 attack the nation of Israel. The Gog/Magog attack on Israel will be 7 years before Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

Your opinion will change if you get to the point where you realize that the trumpets happen in the same timeframe as the vials.

There is some overlap. But the 7 trumpets are not the 7 vials.

Here is my timeline chart showing the 7 trumpets only. The second chart shows both the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials. The third chart shows the 7 seals.

 

[The Light]

There is some overlap. But the 7 trumpets are not the 7 vials.

Douggg. When the 7th trumpet sounds.........Armageddon is OVER. Christ has returned.

Likewise, when the 7th vial is poured out........Armageddon is OVER. Christ has returned.

The trumpets and vials are just different visions of the same timeframe which is the 7th seal. Each vision has different information, but the timeframe is the 7th seal wrath of God.

 

[Trekson]

The Feast of Weeks is Pentecost, Shavuot.
The period known as the "Seven Weeks" or "Counting of the Omer" is a biblically significant timeframe that spans from the Feast of Passover to the Feast of Pentecost, also known as Shavuot. This period is rooted in the agricultural and spiritual rhythms of ancient Israel and holds deep theological significance.

And yet Pentecost is not fully come in until 50 after Pentecost, which is the Feast of New Wine when the Holy Spirit was given to the Church.

The 1/3 that will be saved are all of those from Israel, the woman, that flee to a place of protection.


Yes.

Never mentioned it.

The feast of new wine isn't actually spoken about in scripture. The feast of weeks is called that because it is seven weeks (49 days) from the feast of first fruits, not Passover, check your sources. The next day, the 50th day since firstfruits is Pentecost because that means the "50th". Shavuot celebrates the first summer harvest (mid-fruits) of wheat, whereas firstfruits celebrated the first spring harvest of barley. There is "not" another 50 day period "after" Pentecost. I agree w/ the 1/3.

 

[Trekson]

Your opinion will change if you get to the point where you realize that the trumpets happen in the same timeframe as the vials.

In other words, the 7 trumpets are not followed by the 7 vials.


I was skipping Rev 12 because it goes from the time of Josephs dream until the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. I was skipping to reduce confusion.

As for Rev 17 and 18 they occur during the 1st 6 seals. They do not occur in the 7th seal.

I don't believe they are the same. I believe they are separate as the judgments are not the same or in the same order. Those that are similar change in degree of intensity from 1/3 to "all". That would be like saying we had a season of mild hurricanes one year and the next year we had many more highly destructive hurricanes, they are not and will not ever be 'the same" season or judgment!

 

[Douggg]

Douggg. When the 7th trumpet sounds.........Armageddon is OVER. Christ has returned.

Likewise, when the 7th vial is poured out........Armageddon is OVER. Christ has returned.

Jesus doe not return until after the 7th vial event has taken place. Armageddon is in Revelation 16:13-16, following the 6th vial poured out in Revelation 16:12. Revelation 16 is about the vials, not the trumpets.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

[The Light]

The feast of new wine isn't actually spoken about in scripture.

Deut 18
4 The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.

Neh 10
39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.

The feast of weeks is called that because it is seven weeks (49 days) from the feast of first fruits, not Passover, check your sources.

From what I gather in the Christian tradition it is counted from first fruits. In the Jewish Tradition it is counted from Passover.

This might have to do with the Jewish day begins in the evening and encompasses the following day.

The next day, the 50th day since firstfruits is Pentecost because that means the "50th". Shavuot celebrates the first summer harvest (mid-fruits) of wheat, whereas firstfruits celebrated the first spring harvest of barley.

Pentecost, Shavuot, is the first fruits of the wheat harvest. The actual harvest takes place in the summer.

There is "not" another 50 day period "after" Pentecost. I agree w/ the 1/3.

Fifty days after Pentecost is the Feast of New Wine. Fifty days after the Feast of New Wine is the Feast of New Oil.

The Feast of New Oil is very likely the time that the 144,000 of the 12 tribes are sealed. This means they are Christians and are the first fruits of the second harvest.

 

[The Light]

I don't believe they are the same. I believe they are separate as the judgments are not the same or in the same order. Those that are similar change in degree of intensity from 1/3 to "all". That would be like saying we had a season of mild hurricanes one year and the next year we had many more highly destructive hurricanes, they are not and will not ever be 'the same" season or judgment!

John is given a vision that contains 7 trumpets of God's wrath. The vision ends at the 7th trumpet.

John is given another vision that contains 7 vials of God's wrath. The vision ends at the 7th vial.

Both visions are about the same timeframe.......the 7th seal wrath of God.

The information is different, but the timeframe is the same.

The vision of the vials is more intense than the trumpets. But it's still Gods wrath.

Take for instance Pharoh's dream of 7 healthy cows and 7 sickly cows. The seven sickly cows ate the 7 healthy cows.

Then Pharoh has another dream of 7 healthy ears of corn and 7 thin ears of corn. The seven thin ears ate the 7 healthy ears.

These are two visions of the same timeframe. The results will be the same, 7 good years followed by seven bad years and the bad years will eat the good years.