The Trinity

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is God’s Anointed.

Agreed.
But He is so much more.

The Anointed Messiah
In a few places, the Bible authors also refer to an "Anointed One" that is different from everyone described above. This Anointed One is God Himself, which modern Bible translations often make clear by capitalizing the letters in the term.

Here's an example from Daniel 9:

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
Daniel 9:25-26

This is a prophecy given to Daniel while the Israelites were captives in Babylon. The prophecy describes a future time when a promised Messiah (the Anointed One) would restore the fortunes of Israel. Of course, with the benefit of hindsight (and the New Testament), we know that promised One to be Jesus, the Messiah.

source: Who Is the "Anointed One" in Scripture?

 

[Wrangler]

Immanuel is a title given to Jesus.

No, it’s not! It’s a name meaning ‘God with us.’ Many people are named Immanuel. None of them are God.

 

[Wrangler]

This Anointed One is God Himself

Nonsense! Moses was anointed. Saul was anointed. David was Anointed. Jesus is Anointed. None of them are God.

 

[marks]

Immanuel is a Name appointed to Jesus by the angel. A man calls someone "Immanuel", is he? God with us?

An angel sent from God calls the One to be born Immanuel, God with us. Is He? Are we being asked to believe a falsehood, as if God's Naming were as sloppy as man's?

God is not like man, that He would tell us that which is not true.

Much love!

 

[tigger 2]

Immanuel is a Name appointed to Jesus by the angel. A man calls someone "Immanuel", is he? God with us?

An angel sent from God calls the One to be born Immanuel, God with us. Is He? Are we being asked to believe a falsehood, as if God's Naming were as sloppy as man's?

God is not like man, that He would tell us that which is not true.

Much love!

.......................................
Immanuel

Should Jesus really be considered to be God because he was symbolically “named” Immanuel (Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23) which means “God is with us”? No more so than Gabriel was calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: “The Lord is with thee” - Luke 1:28. Nor did Zacharias mean that John the Baptizer (his new son) was actually God when he was asked, “I wonder what this child [John] will turn out to be?”, and he answered, “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit his people and has redeemed them.” - Luke 1:66-68, LB.

(How do we know that Immanu El in Hebrew means ‘God is with us’? We know because shortly after it is introduced in Isaiah 7:14 and repeated in 8:8, the very same Hebrew term is explained in 8:10 - “God is with us” - KJV; RSV; NRSV; NASB; NIV; NEB; REB; NJB; NAB; MLB; LB; etc.)

Gabriel and Zacharias (Zechariah) meant exactly what Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years when saying “God is with us” and similar statements. They meant “God has favored us” or “God is helping us”! - Gen. 21:22; Ex. 18:19; Nu. 23:21; josh. 1:9; 1 Chron. 17:2; 2 chron. 1:1; 35:21; ezra 1:3; is. 8:10. And Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9 (cf., Jer. 1:8; Haggai 1:13). But if we insist on trinitarian-type “proof,” then Gabriel must have meant that he (Gabriel) is God! And Zacharias (whose own name means ‘Jehovah is renowned’ - p. 678, TDOTB) must have meant that John the Baptizer is God! – Also see 1 Sam. 17:37; 2 Sam. 14:17; 1 Ki. 8:57; 1 Chron. 17:2; 22:18; 2 Chron. 36:23; Is. 41:10; Amos 5:14; Zech 8:23.

This understanding is seen throughout the Bible. For example, “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” - 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, RSV.

Or, in a Psalm many of us apply to ourselves or our friends:

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me - Ps. 23, ASV.


The acclaimed trinitarian Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:

“The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. ‘God [is] with us’ .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass ‘before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.’ Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God’s gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us.” - p. 86. And, “The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God’s presence with his people through a child.” - p. 87.

Or as noted trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris tells us:

“Matthew [in Matt. 1:23] is not saying, ‘Someone who is “God” is now physically with us,’ but ‘God is acting on our behalf in the person of Jesus.’” - p. 258, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who wrote the Nicean Creed? Was it supposed to be equal to inspired scripture?

The persons whom you call inspired and wrote the gospels and the letters are the same persons that taught others before they died.
Is this a surprise to you? I know it isn't. So how would you say the teachings with which Jesus instructed the Apostles were carried forward after they died? I'm sure you know the bible was not written yet at this early time...I mean the New Testament as a "book".

Was it even necessary?

Of course it was! YOU are proof of the fact that everything needed to be written down.
It sounds like you know the history of the church, but then you make comments that are of no logical sense.
I'm being sincere - not mean.

You must surely know that every single council was held in order to combat heresy and to declare in writing what the Christian faith believed; in order to clarify for everyone who, by the end of the 1st century, were/was spread all over Asia Minor.

The Council of Nicea was held specifically to combat the heresy of Arianism...
the idea that some were teaching that stated Jesus to be just a man.
The church wrote the words of the Nicene Creed to clarify who Jesus was.

See what Paul had to say:
1 Corinthians 15:2-17
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Christ died for our sins according to scripture.
He was buried and was raised on the 3rd day.
He appeared to Peter and the rest of the 12.
He appeared to 500 which were still living when Corinthians was written.
IF Christ was not raised the preaching of the Apostles was in vain.
IF Christ has not been raised, we are still in our sins.

You see the Jews fell into this trap of making up and writing down what they thought the scriptures meant.....the Talmud ended up replacing the Bible as the “go to” for spiritual information...but who wrote it? Like the Catechism is for Catholics....who wrote it? Are these man inspired explanations of scripture even correct? Can we trust the people who penned them?
In the case of Judaism the answer is NO! And in the case of the Catechism and the so called ”creeds” I believe the answer is the same.
These are not inspired of God, but the work of men, whom Jesus and the apostles warned would go way off track. (2 Peter 2:1-3(
1 Timothy 4:1-3...
"However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron. 3 They forbid marriage and command people to abstain from foods that God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth."

Can Russell be trusted?
Is he not just a man?
Is he inspired?
Do you abstain from food or the blood of another to save a life?
Did he have to write a bible expressly to support his own beliefs?
DIFFERENT from every other bible?
You trust THAT bible more?

If you think some will fall away IN LATER TIMES...
Why don't you at least believe those from the beginning of the church?
Do you think Russell knew more than the Apostles or those they taught?

Who forbids marriage to its priests, even when there is no scriptural reason for it? The early Popes were married and had children, so who along the way, imposed this sanction on them? Who was it that forbade Catholics to eat meat on Fridays? If it was a mortal sin to do so, are those poor souls till in hell?

Everything you mention above, except for the early Popes being married, are doctrine that came fairly recently (hundreds of years) after the beginning of the church.

Not eating meat on Friday was for a specific reason.
Priests not getting married was for a specific reason.
Those that ate meat on Fridays are not in hell.

But why are you always discussing the Catholic Church?
They have the Catechism
You have The Watchtower and Awake.
You have all literature to read that is specific to the JWs.
You are not even allowed to ready and study other belief systems.
You have nothing to disdain within the CC...whose members are free to do as they wish.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@Aunty Jane

part 2 of 2

Lets see.....

Nicene Creed (325AD)
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

So far so good...

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,

OK, now we start to deviate....
Here...”God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father”
This is not what scripture teaches at all. Here we have the opposite of what is stated at the beginning...”one God the Father Almighty” and now we have “God from God”...”true God from true God”...nowhere does scripture teach that....this is identifying another god. “consubstantial” is a made up word that is not expressed anywhere in the Bible....so there is your first deviation.
Jesus is a creation of his God and Father. (Revelation 3:14) He was created before all things....the “firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)

Look at the words:
You said in another post that a begotten must have a begetter...
Above it says Begotten NOT MADE...so begotten does not mean MADE.
Begotten means unique in the way it was used in the N.T.

Cosubstantial with the Father is not in scripture?
What does Jesus mean when He states that He and the Father are One? John 10:30
What does Jesus mean when He states If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. John 14:9
If I see a normal man...do I see the Father?

I highlighted a sentence of yours above.
Could you please give me verses when you post?
Especially since you use a bible that has differences in it.
Thanks. (I know you have many times).

As to Colossians 1:15,
Jesus was there before anything was created because HE created everything, being the Word of God.
This is explained in the all-important first words of John in his gospel and which is not the same in your version.
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD
THE WORD WAS WITH GOD
AND THE WORD WAS GOD

We also read in Colossians 1:15 that Jesus is the IMAGE of God...
NOT the likeness, but the image. When we see Him, we see God.
He has PRIORITY over all creation and was present already in order to create everything.

and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

Now this is speaking about the “God from God” in the previous part, but no such God exists.
Therefore who is incarnated in Mary was not God but his only begotten son......who was begotten long before creation existed...and was “with God” “in the beginning”.

??
Luke 1:35
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

What does ONLY BEGOTTEN SON mean to you?
The Son was with God from the beginning.
He was born as Jesus to Mary 2,000 years ago.
He is IMMANUEL, GOD WITH US. A title.
He is the IMAGE of God. (not the likeness).

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

No problem with any of that except that now it is applied to the one identified as “true God from true God” so NO! This is not correct because it is wrongly applied. A devious departure from the truth. Spiritual sleight of hand IMO.

It's Jesus that is true God from true God.
He was with God from the beginning.
He "came out of God", being the 2nd Person of the Trinity, The Son, as Jesus.
There is no deviation.
Jesus, the Only Son, the Begotten, the 2nd Person, rose on the 3rd day.
It's all the same Person.

But a distinction must be made.
God Father did NOT go to the cross.
Jesus went to the cross.
The Holy Spirit did not go to the cross.
They are separate in function, but one in nature.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

Again not what the Bible teaches. Nowhere is the holy spirit called "Lord" or "God".
There is no "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" because neither of these designations if from the Bible, but from the church.
Like Mary, nowhere is the holy spirit to be glorified or adored.

I have no more time for now...
But didn't the O.T. speak of THE SPIRIT?
Whose spirit do you suppose it was speaking of?

Genesis 1:2
Exodus 31:3
Job 33:3
Psalm 139:7
Isaiah 42:1 (sounds like Jesus)

and many more...

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

"One holy catholic and apostolic church"? In no way does that describe what Jesus started.
"Catholic" initially meant just the "universal" nature or cohesion of the church, which we know from history was soon to become divided. The foretold apostasy was to last until the "harvest time" of the angels to get rid of the "weeds" who dared to corrupt the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Right. The CC is the universal church.
It is the original church and is holy.
And yes, eventually it did become divided.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ya know it is all a matter of perspective.....objective.....look at the forest from a distance.
Why is it that I can get along with all those denominations that I fellowship with?
For one I don't debate in church....LOL...They do not see that side of me.
For another, I love Christians....but I do not think that any of the denominations are totally correct....
Of course I think I am pretty close....but I am not perfect so I have to be wrong on a couple things....LOL

So in a lot of ways we are in the same boat.....so it is best to fellowship with one another and love one another....kind of what you are told to do.....the boat is Christianity.

As long as their beliefs are not too crazy!....if ya have any OSAS people in the boat....that would make it difficult and uncomfortable because you would always have to sleep with one eye open because they believe they could do anything to you or everyone and still go to heaven. One guy alive in the boat and he thinks he is going to heaven.

Same thing goes with Calvinists.....they could kill everyone in the boat and think that it is not their fault because God predestined them to kill everyone. Irresistible Grace right?

You don't want any Jehovah's Witnesses in the boat because Christ might walk out there and sink the boat.... because he is only a man.

Maybe we could put them on a tether in a dinghy boat and see if they would get along. "No I am the elect! No I know the one true God! You guys worship a man!" All the while the OSAS people are loading there shotguns. "Either way we are getting forgiveness for this and going to heaven!"

But still no one is perfect and no one is totally right and all live in glass houses and have banana peels for sandals. But we can keep rowing that boat and sing hymns to the Lord together.

LOL
Yeah.
I liked your representations there!

 

[GodsGrace]

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Why Was Jesus Not Named Immanuel?

 

[GodsGrace]

That church is only doing what it has always done . it is as the chameleon and will change its color to FIT in with its surroundings .
They are decieving us . All they want is to get us all to come together as one .

Every denomination seems to be involved with this idea.
I'll have to say that (until this Pope) the CC held steady on its beliefs.
It's moral beliefs I mean.
It would not agree to female priests, homosexual marriage, acceptance of gender issues, etc.
In this sense I can't agree that it's a chameleon.

And for that I'm grateful.
It has some doctrine I can't agree with - what church doesn't?

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not understand you. TEXBOW said in response to me, "Angels were not made in God's image. Please. #244"
Aren't angels spiritual beings like God? I think they are.

And who was God talking to when he said, "Let us make man in our image" if it wasn't the angels? Back then, Jesus was the pre-incarnate Creator, the WORD. The One God. There was no other in heaven apart from the WORD and the angels. Jesus was not born on earth until billions of years later.
.

It's accepted Christian theology that God was, in effect, speaking to Himself.
But Himself still was 3 Persons.
The Holy Ghost always existed.
And Jesus always existed but as the 2nd Person, OR as THE WORD, as John described Him
in John 1...IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD (Jesus is the Word)
AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD
AND THE WORD WAS GOD

In the O.T. some words for GOD, Elohim, are actually plural.


The following might be helpful to you:

Why does God refer to Himself in the plural in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22? | GotQuestions.org

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s more like the last 1600 years, since the trinitarians made up their doctrine in the 4th century.

The Apostles were not trinitarians and Jesus never taught the doctrine of the trinity. This is the Scriptural record.

This is an important discussion and I'm willing...

You say the Apostles were not trinitarians and this is the scriptural record.
Could you post something to which I could reply?

I will say that it SEEMS that the Trinity was not spoken of in scripture in a very clear way....
It was spoken of, but not clearly.

A lot was studied by the early theologians after Jesus was resurrected.
So many letters, writings and then the gospels.
This had to be sifted through....the early Christians were very serious about what they believed.
They were dying for their beliefs.
They would not accept Caesar as god...they would not bow down to him and were sent to the lions.
And worse.

If I can remember, or you remind me, tomorrow I'd like to show you what some of those that were taught by the Apostles beleived.
The Trinity was taught early in Christianity and the Council of Nicea confirmed this.

The best example is Jesus in Matthew 28:19 telling the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Didn't these 3 persons exist in scripture?...going back to the O.T.?

 

[TEXBOW]

The plain reading of the scriptures is just too challenging for some. In righteous pursuit, they desire to spiritualize any scripture that gives even the slightest opportunity to do so. When the plain reading makes plain sense, leave it alone.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it’s not! It’s a name meaning ‘God with us.’ Many people are named Immanuel. None of them are God.

I think I already replied to this....

The following may be of help:

Why Was Jesus Not Named Immanuel?

 

[GodsGrace]

Nonsense! Moses was anointed. Saul was anointed. David was Anointed. Jesus is Anointed. None of them are God.

Jesus was resurrected from the dead.

Moses was not.
Saul was not.
David was not.

NO ONE else was.

We Christians believe Jesus rose from the dead.
Otherwise, he's just another guy.
And a crazy one at that.

 

[Wrangler]

Cosubstantial with the Father is not in scripture?
What does Jesus mean when He states that He and the Father are One? John 10:30

No. God is Spirit. Jesus is flesh. Not co-substantial.

What Jesus meant is the same as us being one with God. It means being on the same page, not being God.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. God is Spirit. Jesus is flesh. Not co-substantial.

What Jesus meant is the same as us being one with God. It means being on the same page, not being God.

Except that Jesus always existed.
HE IS THE WORD OF GOD.
The WORD was with God from eternity past.
The WORD became flesh.
This flesh was called Jesus.

Think about it.
John 1:1

 

[Wrangler]

You say the Apostles were not trinitarians and this is the scriptural record.
Could you post something to which I could reply?

The trinity is not in the Bible. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Every epistle prologue mentions God, who is the Father, and the son.

 

[TEXBOW]

The best example is Jesus in Matthew 28:19 telling the Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Didn't these 3 persons exist in scripture?...going back to the O.T.?

It's too simple. It's more gratifying for some to hold a more spiritual explanation for certain verses. An exegesis that the common Saint cannot understand without their enlightenment.
We all know there are parables and prophecies and some scripture is not meant to be taken literally but the vast majority of the Bible does not need scripture gymnastics to understand its meaning.

 

[Wrangler]

NO ONE else was.

That’s not true. Both Elijah and Elisha brought people back from the dead. Samuel was brought back. And Elijah and Moses were brought back on the mountain at the transfiguration.