The True Interpretation of Revelation and Daniel

[JosyWales]

Thank you, Retrobyter, for asking me. I shall gladly answer.

You are correct in assuming that my viewpoint has serious repercussions. Very much so, but that is my whole point here.

Your first question is when will it start or end. I cannot say that, for to do so would put me in violation of the Bible whereby Jesus Himself says that no man knows when it will happen and He even included Himself in this. I have suspicions as to when, but that is too vague for me to present here in this forum.

As for when it ends, that will be dated from when it begins, so therefore, again, that is still open. Suffice it to say that when it does begin, it will follow the form I have have previously laid out, that being an overall period of 2300 days, with 70 weeks of it being 3 periods of trouble for Gods people of the time and 1810 days of trouble for those who are the inhabitants of the earth not part of this group. Please refer to my original post for this progression.

Also, the situation of the 3 1/2 times is cross referenced 3 times in the bible wih the 1260 days and the 42 months to make sure you understand that this is all the same time period. It is one of the best proofs I have that this whole thing is meant to be understood as days.

Allow me to show you:

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

Here God says it a slightly different way, but it is still the same:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

As you know, these are the first times the 3 1/2 times are mentioned in the Bible. This is pretty self-explanatory but just to say it plainly, God is tellling Daniel (and us through Daniel) that after this 3 1/2 times, the Beast will destroy the earthly forces at which point, the work of God will be finished. You see, people dont seem to understand that the whole point of this is about God creating a people that will not turn from Him even if their own destruction is sure. Unfortunately, there is only one way to do this, which is the reason behind the Apocalypse in the first place.

However, God is not satisfied with this being a vague and unknown time in the future, so in Revelation, (I am sure He foresaw all the misinterpretation about this) He makes sure we understand what the 3 1/2 times actually are.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent

As you see, God says directly that the 1260 days are the same as the 3 1/2 times, even using the exact same wording for it straight out of Daniel 12. This further also proves that this woman is a real person, just as I have asserted earlier since the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are the same.

However, God goes even further to make sure we understand this:

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

And then says:

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Now God is telling you that the 42 months and the 1260 days are also the same time period (1260 divided by a Jewish 30 day month is 42 months, as per normal).

But there is one more thing:

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

As you can see, God has just told you that the time that the 2 witnesses roam the earth, the sheltering of the Woman whom the Devil hates and the appointed time of the Beasts reign, are all the same time period. In other words, the 3 1/2 times, the 42 months, and the 1260 days are all the same time period, they are just being said in 3 different ways.

So there you have it.

And, all this supports what I have originally shown you here in this thread.

Please, if you have any more questions, I will look forward to answering them concerning this.

PS: I will say that I belive I will see these events unfold with my own eyes and the time is short, but this is only my opinion.

 

[neophyte]

Thank you, Retrobyter, for asking me. I shall gladly answer.

You are correct in assuming that my viewpoint has serious repercussions. Very much so, but that is my whole point here.

Your first question is when will it start or end. I cannot say that, for to do so would put me in violation of the Bible whereby Jesus Himself says that no man knows when it will happen and He even included Himself in this. I have suspicions as to when, but that is too vague for me to present here in this forum.

As for when it ends, that will be dated from when it begins, so therefore, again, that is still open. Suffice it to say that when it does begin, it will follow the form I have have previously laid out, that being an overall period of 2300 days, with 70 weeks of it being 3 periods of trouble for Gods people of the time and 1810 days of trouble for those who are the inhabitants of the earth not part of this group. Please refer to my original post for this progression.

Also, the situation of the 3 1/2 times is cross referenced 3 times in the bible wih the 1260 days and the 42 months to make sure you understand that this is all the same time period. It is one of the best proofs I have that this whole thing is meant to be understood as days.

Allow me to show you:

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

Here God says it a slightly different way, but it is still the same:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

As you know, these are the first times the 3 1/2 times are mentioned in the Bible. This is pretty self-explanatory but just to say it plainly, God is tellling Daniel (and us through Daniel) that after this 3 1/2 times, the Beast will destroy the earthly forces at which point, the work of God will be finished. You see, people dont seem to understand that the whole point of this is about God creating a people that will not turn from Him even if their own destruction is sure. Unfortunately, there is only one way to do this, which is the reason behind the Apocalypse in the first place.

However, God is not satisfied with this being a vague and unknown time in the future, so in Revelation, (I am sure He foresaw all the misinterpretation about this) He makes sure we understand what the 3 1/2 times actually are.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent

As you see, God says directly that the 1260 days are the same as the 3 1/2 times, even using the exact same wording for it straight out of Daniel 12. This further also proves that this woman is a real person, just as I have asserted earlier since the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are the same.

However, God goes even further to make sure we understand this:

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

And then says:

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Now God is telling you that the 42 months and the 1260 days are also the same time period (1260 divided by a Jewish 30 day month is 42 months, as per normal).

But there is one more thing:

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

As you can see, God has just told you that the time that the 2 witnesses roam the earth, the sheltering of the Woman whom the Devil hates and the appointed time of the Beasts reign, are all the same time period. In other words, the 3 1/2 times, the 42 months, and the 1260 days are all the same time period, they are just being said in 3 different ways.

So there you have it.

And, all this supports what I have originally shown you here in this thread.

Please, if you have any more questions, I will look forward to answering them concerning this.

PS: I will say that I belive I will see these events unfold with my own eyes and the time is short, but this is only my opinion.

You completely misinterpret/misunderstand both the Book of Daniel and Revelation, it is a " convention " of apocalptic literature that the visions are to be kept in a sealed book until the end time.

" Daniel," he said, "go away. These words to remain secret and sealed until the time of the End. [ Dan. 12: 9 ] the setting was during the Babylonian exile, and the end time, the time when the visions were revealed was the time of the author , during Antiochus' persecutions.

Read this passage of [ Rev.22:10-15 ]

In the above passage of Rev. 22: 10-15 the author John makes it clear that he is speaking to his audience about their own time in history.The end time to which they look forward is the end of the persecutions which they are presently enduring.

Many of you people may be disappointed to learn that the Book of Revelation was not written to help Christians who lived 2,000 years later to figure out if the end of the world is immeinent. We, just like the people of Jesus' generation, seem to want to concentrate on a question which is a waste of time and effort. Jesus continually waylaid questions which were directed at discovering when "all this would cme to pass". Jesus is never talking about the end times in order to help people figure out " when" they will occur. Rather His interest is in teaching people " how" to be ready . He discourages conjectures about "when" by saying:, " But as for that day or hour , nobody knows it, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, no one but the Father' [ Mark 13:32 ].
Jesus' message about the end times is not to try and ' figure out when it is" but " be ready now " A concern about " when" is a useless diversion. If we follow Jesus' advice to be ready now we have no reason to be concerned about "when ".

 

[JosyWales]

Neophyte, I am afraid that it is you that misunderstand.

First, I will agree that the "When" is not something to concentrate on, since we should always be ready and we cannot know the exact time anyway. However, you labor under the misunderstanding that the Apocalypse already occured during the time of Antiochus' persecutions.

You make a very serious error in doing this.

To say that the time of Antiochus' persecutions were during the "time of the Author" (meaning Daniel), you are subscribing to the false belief that Daniel did not actually write the Book of Daniel. I have heard this teaching before and have rejected it for a number of reasons.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes ruled the Seleucid Empire from 175 BC until his death in 164 BC according to Wikipdia. You are trying to sneak in the belief that there is no Daniel who wrote the Book of Daniel, but was an author who lived during the time of Antiochus and simple pretended to be Daniel, thus retrofitting the Book of Daniel to make it fit with Antiochus. You are saying that the Bible was written after the fact then made to look like it had been written hundreds of years before to fool everyone.

I disputed with the Head of the Religion Dept at the University over this belief for it means that the Bible was not written by those who it claims wrote it and is the only way the unenlightened can believe that the Bible could show real prophesy, since it does not exist according to them.

In other words people, Neo is trying to tell you that the Bible lies in both prophecy and who it says actually wrote it, He is saying that unknown people in the future wrote it after the fact then backdated it to make it seem like God had prophisied of the events before hand.

He is saying that the Bible is a lie and was manipulated to make you believe in something that does not exist.

When my Professor taught this, I asked him two questions.

I said "If Daniel does not exist, then why does Ezekiel speak of his wisdom so elequently in Eze 28:3 and put him in the same class as Noah and Job in Eze 14", since I knew that he accepted the existance of Ezekiel. His response was that he didnt know who that Daniel was. I was astounded by this answer but moved on and asked a second question.

I asked that if Prophecy didnt actually exist and Daniel did not really exist either, then why did Jesus say:

Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

This is also repeated in Mark 13:14.

I asked him if Jesus was a liar since in this passage Jesus acknowledged both Daniel as a real person and prophecy as not only possible but absolute.

He then said "Yes, I will accept that. He was only making up stories for the rabble to teach them morals."

I must point out again, that this man was the head of the Religion Dept., a professor with a Masters Degree in Religion.

I left that University the next day.

So I say to you, you are as mislead as that teacher was if you also believe this.

Also, I notice that, once again, no one is addressing that, if what I am saying in this thread is not true, then why do all the days listed in Revelation attributed to the Apocalypse (1810 days) added to the only other time in the Bible that that a time frame is attributed to the Apocalypse (i.e. the 70 weeks of Daniel 9) come up to exactly the time prophisied as the entire length of time that the Apocalypse lasts (the 2300 days of Daniel 8)?

Once again, no answer.

My proof stands. The days and weeks are literal and add up perfectly, providing the link between Daniel and Revelation and the time is still to come and has not already passed as you are trying to say.

PS: God does not tell Daniel to 'Go away" as you state. He told Daniel to "Go his way" a phrase used 15 times in the Bible to mean, "continue on your path".

 

[JosyWales]

I think that the main reason most people cant accept what I am saying here is simply because they misunderstand that Jesus and Michael are two different people and that the Anointed One (Messiah it is interpreted here, tho it is interpreted Anointed One in the other 30+ places this word is used) is not Jesus, but is Michael.

 

[veteran]

.... that the Anointed One (Messiah it is interpreted here, tho it is interpreted Anointed One in the other 30+ places this word is used) is not Jesus, but is Michael.

There's no doubt that Daniel was given to write about Christ Jesus as The Messiah of Daniel 9:25.

Dan 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(KJV)


Only priests and kings were 'anointed' (except for Elisha in 1 Kings 19). The word for Messiah there is a noun, not an adjective, and it's connected with the "the Prince" in referring to a Priest-King.

There's only ONE in all of God's Word Who is known as a Priest-King, and That is The Lord Jesus Christ (Ps.110:4; Zech.6:13; John 4:25).

 

[JosyWales]

Sorry, Daniel calls Michael "the Great Prince" in Dan 12:

Dan 9:25 Know [sup]3045[/sup] therefore and understand [sup]7919[/sup], [that] from the going forth [sup]4161[/sup] of the commandment [sup]1697[/sup] to restore [sup]7725[/sup] and to build [sup]1129[/sup] Jerusalem [sup]3389[/sup] unto the Messiah [sup]4899[/sup] the Prince [sup]5057[/sup] [shall be] seven [sup]7651[/sup] weeks [sup]7620[/sup], and threescore [sup]8346[/sup] and two [sup]8147[/sup] weeks [sup]7620[/sup]: the street [sup]7339[/sup] shall be built [sup]1129[/sup] again [sup]7725[/sup], and the wall [sup]2742[/sup], even in troublous [sup]6695[/sup] times [sup]6256[/sup].

Also, as I have pointed out many times, the word Messiah in Daniel 9 means only "Anointed One" and was used 38 times in the bible, including once to refer to Cyrus, king of Persia.

Isa 45:1 Thus saith [sup]559[/sup] the LORD [sup]3068[/sup] to his anointed [sup]4899[/sup], to Cyrus [sup]3566[/sup], whose right hand [sup]3225[/sup] I have holden [sup]2388[/sup], to subdue [sup]7286[/sup] nations [sup]1471[/sup] before [sup]6440[/sup] him; and I will loose [sup]6605[/sup] the loins [sup]4975[/sup] of kings [sup]4428[/sup], to open [sup]6605[/sup] before [sup]6440[/sup] him the two leaved gates [sup]1817[/sup]; and the gates [sup]8179[/sup] shall not be shut [sup]5462[/sup];

Please notice the same number used for Strongs Concordance (indicating the same Hebrew word is being used) in relation to Messiah in Dan and Anointed in Isa. This proves that just because that word is used, it does not have to be Jesus (and no I am not trying to say that Cyrus is Jesus please)

Since I already showed that NO PART of the 70 weeks has occured yet at the beginning of this thread, the Anointed One of Daniel 9 is exactly who Daniel said it is in Dan 12, that is Michael.

You do err in trying to place Jesus into a prophecy that He was never meant to be in.

 

[veteran]

"Messiah" (mashiyach) is attached to the title of "Prince" (nagiyd) in Dan.9:25, which most definitely is different than "great" (gadowl) "prince" (sar) in Dan.12:1.

Nowhere in God's Word is the Archangel Michael called 'anointed' (Messiah), nor having been anointed.

So you might want to say you're sorry to someone else.

 

[JosyWales]

No, I gotta stick with what I have already said. Daniel identified Michael in the 12th chapter and I am sure he was speaking of him in the 9th chapter as well. I have outlined some pretty good reasons to think so too, which no one can find a flaw with.

Next you will be telling me that Cyrus is Jesus because in Isa 45:1 God calls Cyrus "messiah" (mashiyach). So this pretty much proves that using that word does not ALWAYS mean Jesus, it just means what it says, which is Anointed One. If you dont think Michael is Anointed by God, then you might want to take another look at the Bible.

My original post stands. Daniel 7 is the meeting of Jesus and Michael at the end of the Apocalypse and Daniel 9 is about the actions of Michael before the return of Jesus. Revelation goes into more detail of Michael's work in every passage where it speaks of the 'Strong' or 'Mighty' Angel and by name in Rev 12.

Its right there.

 

[veteran]

Then your confusion means there's more than One Anointed High Priest-King, for that's what the phrase "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel means.

And actually, for 'some' people on earth, to them, Christ Jesus is not the only Anointed High-Priest King. But those are not of God.

 

[tgwprophet]

JOSY... " While the Jewish calendar consists of 12 30-day months (360 days) because of the use of the lunar cycle, they have been quite aware from the beginning that this does not make up a full year. As a result, there are several days added to this cycle every year to make up the difference. In other words, the Jews calculated their months by the Moon but they calculated their years by the Sun. "

In my studies, another month was peridocially added...ever certai years not a few days. Off hand I do not remember the name of that month but I do remember it has a name.

 

[oliver]

JOSY, you claim that the 70 sevens are 490 days and you don't know when they start. However the prophecy says exactly when they start; it is with the decree for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, which is the decree given to Nehemiah, somewhere in the 480's BC. The 69th seven ends just before Messiah is cut off(crucified) and the city and temple destroyed. So there is no way that this can be 490 days; it has to be years.

 

[tgwprophet]

Alrighty then.... as fer as a math background goes... I knows my gazintas purdy gude. lemme see...
2 gazinta 4 twice 4 gazinta 8 twice....

Oh, yeah, I ken due sum more ifin you guyz kneadz sum hep.

 

[Elle]

Well Josey, I do appreciate the effort you put into your timeline and I will not try to force you to alter what you believe, but I do have one thing to say in regards to the 2300 days. You may take it or leave it. In Daniel 8:13-14 it says "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said to that certain saint who spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said to me, Unto two thousand three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." It is the word "days" I want to focus on. These are not literal 24 hour days. The word "days" here are translated from the 2 Hebrew words "erev boqer" which should be translated as "evenings and mornings", not "days". What does the vision concern? The daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation. Mornings and evenings are tied to the daily sacrifice. The priests were commanded to offer up a lamb every morning and every evening from one solar year to another. So 2300 evenings (sacrifices) and mornings (sacrifices) are 1150 days of evening and morning sacrifices. If God wanted to use a word that means 24 hours, he would have inspired Daniel to use the Hebrew word "yowm" which means a 24 hour day amongst other things.

 

[michaelvpardo]

No, I gotta stick with what I have already said. Daniel identified Michael in the 12th chapter and I am sure he was speaking of him in the 9th chapter as well. I have outlined some pretty good reasons to think so too, which no one can find a flaw with.

Next you will be telling me that Cyrus is Jesus because in Isa 45:1 God calls Cyrus "messiah" (mashiyach). So this pretty much proves that using that word does not ALWAYS mean Jesus, it just means what it says, which is Anointed One. If you dont think Michael is Anointed by God, then you might want to take another look at the Bible.

My original post stands. Daniel 7 is the meeting of Jesus and Michael at the end of the Apocalypse and Daniel 9 is about the actions of Michael before the return of Jesus. Revelation goes into more detail of Michael's work in every passage where it speaks of the 'Strong' or 'Mighty' Angel and by name in Rev 12.

Its right there.

Interesting ideas, but as they point to a created being rather than to the creator, even Jesus Christ our Lord, they remain unsound ideas. You need to take time to spend some time alone with our Lord. His Spirit is given to reveal things about Him, not about Michael, or anyone else. His Spirit glorifies God the Father through God the Son. These other things may be interesting, but at best they're just diversions, and at worst they're blinding doctrines intended to make you stumble through pride. Don't go there.
If you could arrive at a knowledge of God through the study of the scripture alone, then the Pharisees and Saudacees that condemned the Lord of glory would never have done just that.
God hates sin and condemns pride. We have nothing that we haven't been given by Him. He formed us in our mother's wombs. Will you stand on your educational record and accomplishments before the judgment seat of Christ? Please don't misunderstand. I'm impressed with your personal accomplishments in school. I somehow managed to win a NYS scholarship when I was in high school and in spite of a partying lifestyle managed to score in the top 5% in the GRE for my chosen field of endeavor at that time (though biological sciences doesn't require the acumen of physics or electrical engineering, etc.), yet I still have trouble keeping my shoes tied. Who cares? So what? Big deal! If we must boast, let it be in that we know the Lord, and when it comes to being born again by His Spirit, that was His choice and not ours, so we can't take pride in that either.
If you're spending your time trying to prove the saints wrong, you're just spinning your wheels. I'm not saying that being born again makes a person omniscient or always correct, but we have the imputed righteousness of Christ, an eternal inheritance that can't be taken away, and a right by way of adoption to call Jesus the Lord of glory, our big brother. You mess with the saints, you're messing with the Lord. (See Saul's experience on the road to Damascus in the book of the acts of the apostles.)
If you've been born again, why are you concerned with this numbers game? How does it edify the body of Christ? If you haven't been born again, what are you waiting for?
I didn't really hear and understand the gospel until I was 39 years old, but I could've heard it as a child and received it. I did get a gospel tract in my bag of candy one Halloween day many years ago and what it said was essentially true, but I had no one to explain the meaning of the tract from its derivation in scripture and I was unable to accept the notion that my sin was already paid for by Jesus Christ, probably because I was raised under false teachings in that regard and told that I had to keep going back to certain people to receive grace through them rather than to receive the gift given to all through the Son of God. Jesus died once for sin and receiving Him by faith is all that anyone need do to receive His Spirit, given that His Spirit testifies to the Truth of this and of His person, both alive and reigning as Lord over all creation.
[sup]14 [/sup]For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, [sup]15 [/sup]while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. Hebrews 3:14-15
If you haven't read the book of Hebrews, it's certainly worth reading and spending a good amount of time in. It was originally written for Hebrew believers, but could've been written for all of the professing church (and in God's plan actually is.)
As far as I can see, no one here appears to have the intention of simply discouraging you, but of getting you back on track, (or on the right track if you've never been on it it in the first place.) It's getting late and I do want to get up for worship service in the morning, so I'll cut myself short here, but I urge you not to cut yourself short. Rather, I would say run with all your might into the everlasting arms. There is real security there and not for just today, but for all time and beyond. Amen.