The True Interpretation of Revelation and Daniel

[JosyWales]

Though much symbolism is used in Revelation to try to describe certain spiritual aspects of physical things that are hard to be understood by us, it is literal in that 7 men will be born on the earth, each endowed with an abundance of the Holy Energy of God (also known as the Golden Oil per Zech 4) and will perform all the deeds listed in both Daniel and Revelation.

Of these will be Michael, who is prophesied in both Daniel and Revelation to fight the Beast, both physically on the earth and, simultaneously, spiritually in Heaven.

The beginning of the proof I will offer is to show you that the Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9 and the 2300 days of Daniel 8 are true days and are not to be reinterpreted as anything else, i.e. the infamous ‘Year for Day’ false theory that caused the doom of the followers of John Miller back in the 1843 and then again in 1847 as well as the confusion that most now experience trying to understand these writings today.

It goes like this:

Take 70 weeks (490 days) per Dan 9

Add the times given us for the 5th, 6th and 7th angels (note that no times are given for the first 4 Angels, who are real men on the earth as are the rest. This is because their actions are accomplished within the 70 weeks) in Revelation being:

5 months (150 days using 30 day months which is how the Jews counted all the days of their months) per Rev 9:5 (5th Angel)

1 hr, 1 day, 1 month and 1 year (396 1/4 days) per Rev 9:15 (6th Angel)

1260 days = 3 1/2 times = 42 months (this is all the same time period and is clearly laid out as such in Rev 11:2 & 3, 12:6, 12:14 and 13:5.

Lastly we have the 3 and 1/2 days that the Two Prophets lay dead as the people party down.

Let’s recap:

490 days, which is broken into 3 parts being 7 weeks (49 days) 62 weeks (434 days) and 1 week (7 days)

150 days

396.25 days

1260 days

3.5 days

And you get 2299.75 days, which is the 2300 days of Daniels prophecy in ch 8.

To restate the entire sequence in the order it will occur:

1. Seven weeks (49 days), the first part of the 70 weeks.

2. The First Woe, 5 months (150 days)

3. 62 weeks (434 days), the second part or middle of the 70 weeks.

4. The Second Woe, Hour, day, month, year (396 1/4 days)

5. One Week (7 days), this being the last part of the 70 Weeks.

6. The Beast's rule, 42 months (1260 days)

7. Death and Resurrection of Witnesses (3 1/2 days)

Total: 2300 days to the Cleansing of the Temple. Forces of Good and Evil finally defined and the Beast revealed for what he is clearly for all to see.

30 days after the killing of the Witnesses, but Beast assaults the stronghold of the Holy People for the final time, causing Jesus' Return. At this time the First Resurrection occurs.

35 days after that, those of the First Resurrection will be tested one last time and those who pass will be allowed in the inner court, to stand before the face of God, while those who fail will be in charge of the outer court, serving them and the people of the earth for the next 1000 years under the reign of Jesus Christ. This is outlined in Ezekiel.

At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is released and the Universe is destroyed, which is the Second Death. After this, New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth and a time begins that is outside of our current grasp of understanding.

The key to this is the understanding that the ‘Messiah’ of Daniel 9 (a word that is used in the OT 38 times and interpreted as “Anointed One” in every case except in Daniel 9 and is even used to describe Cyrus the Persian in Isaiah 45:1) was never meant to be applied to Jesus. It is a reference to Michael who Daniel speaks again of in Dan 12:1. Once you understand this, the rest of it makes sense.

 

[whitestone]

Lol. Sounds like quite the circus. There was this one part you were close about, the "outside your grasp of understanding" part, you definetly that part.
You should do a word study on the New Testament word, "Fulfilled".
Then perhaps you would begin to "hear" and "see" what is actually fulfilled in Christ, and not place it all out of your reach into some future pie in the sky "futurism" style religion that leaves you with nothing now. Word to the wise.

 

[JosyWales]

Well, first you misquoted me. I said that the time after the universe is destroyed after the 1000 year reign of Christ is 'outside OUR understanding', but if you are so wise as to understand what it will be like when even the current laws of Physics no longer apply, then I tip my hat to you.

Personally, I dont even really know what 'Futurism' even is. All I know is the Bible and what it says. If you can see a flaw biblically in what I have presented, then please enlighten me.

As for it being a circus, then I dont think you see the half of it, but a circus might be a good way to describe it. When the time comes, it will be interesting to see if you will be one of the lion tamers or simply the food.

The interesting thing to me is that I seem to be the only one who has discovered a way that all this fits perfectly without having to actually leave the Bible to do it. Everyone else tries to assign times and places that they cannot prove actually relates to the prophesies.

 

[day]

JoseyWales, How does your timeline fit in with Daniel's 1290 days and 1335 days? ( Daniel 12:11-13)

Also, for your 6th angel I get only 391 days and 1 hour. When did 1 hour equal 1/4 day? A regular Jewish year contains 360 days, not 365. You need to stay consistant.

What is the starting point, when does the count begin?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, day.

JoseyWales, How does your timeline fit in with Daniel's 1290 days and 1335 days? ( Daniel 12:11-13)

Also, for your 6th angel I get only 391 days and 1 hour. When did 1 hour equal 1/4 day? A regular Jewish year contains 360 days, not 365. You need to stay consistant.

What is the starting point, when does the count begin?

(Shhh... It was the only way to get it to add up to the 2300 days!)

 

[JosyWales]

Sorry for the delay in my response, but thank you for asking Day. It also appears that Retrobyter needs this answer as well.

Your first question was: How does your timeline fit in with Daniel's 1290 days and 1335 days?

In looking at my timeline I realize I do not state clearly (for this I apologize) that the 30 days after the death of the 2 Witnesses, which is when the Beast attacks Jerusalem, is the 1290th day. It occurs 30 days after the end of the 1260 rule of the Beast (1260 + 30 equal 1290). . It is at the end of the 1290 days that I believe the first Resurrection will occur,

Also, in the same manner I did not clearly state that the 45 days after that attack (the 1335th day, being 1260 + 30 + 45 = 1335) on Jerusalem will be some type of defining last test of those who are a part of the first resurrection, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel 12:2 where it states:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

This corresponds to the statement in Eze 44 where God speaks of the Levites who went astray not coming near to him while the Levites who kept the charge during the tribulation being rewarded by being allowed to see the face of God. I don’t really want to get into a discussion with someone trying to tell me that the events of Eze never came about and are therefore worthless. I simply wish to show that this is the explanation for the prophecy in Daniel 12:2. As for what this defining event is, I think God is keeping it a secret for that time.

Your second question contains an error on your part, one which Retrobyter also did not catch.

While the Jewish calendar consists of 12 30-day months (360 days) because of the use of the lunar cycle, they have been quite aware from the beginning that this does not make up a full year. As a result, there are several days added to this cycle every year to make up the difference. In other words, the Jews calculated their months by the Moon but they calculated their years by the Sun.

This is proven by simply looking at the Jewish calendar and you will see that each year begins on the same day, otherwise their months would shift (like it does in the Muslim calendar, which does not make this adjustment) during each year to different times, which it does not. In other words, the fact that Jewish Holidays occur at the same time every year (like Passover and such) is a simple proof that a Jewish Year is 365 1/4 days long. In contrast, Ramadan, the Muslim holiday, happens at different times of the year because they DONT use a solar year to base their calendar on like the Jews (and most of the rest of us) do.

Therefore, when the Bible mentions a month, they are referring to 30 days. This is also proven in the Bible when it tells us in Rev 11:2-3 that the 42 months and the 1260 days are the same period (1260 divided by 30 = 42, like it says). However, when the Bible mentions a year, it is always 365 1/4 days long. This is why they use the term 3 1/2 TIMES (not years) in Daniel 12:7 and Rev 12:4 when referring to the 1260 day/42 month time period, because they acknowledge that it is not EXACTLY years (in the classic sense) they are speaking of, even though it is very close.

And yes, Retrobyter, it does fit exactly, doesn't it?

I would also like to point out that I appear to be the ONLY person presenting an interpretation that does not have to actually leave the Bible for it to work and to assign arbitrary events in history (which can never be proven, by the way) to try to fit it all together. Not only that, it is so simple to understand that even a child can grasp it.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, JosyWales.

Sorry for the delay in my response, but thank you for asking Day. It also appears that Retrobyter needs this answer as well.

Your first question was: How does your timeline fit in with Daniel's 1290 days and 1335 days?

In looking at my timeline I realize I do not state clearly (for this I apologize) that the 30 days after the death of the 2 Witnesses, which is when the Beast attacks Jerusalem, is the 1290th day. It occurs 30 days after the end of the 1260 rule of the Beast (1260 + 30 equal 1290). . It is at the end of the 1290 days that I believe the first Resurrection will occur,

Also, in the same manner I did not clearly state that the 45 days after that attack (the 1335th day, being 1260 + 30 + 45 = 1335) on Jerusalem will be some type of defining last test of those who are a part of the first resurrection, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Daniel 12:2 where it states:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

This corresponds to the statement in Eze 44 where God speaks of the Levites who went astray not coming near to him while the Levites who kept the charge during the tribulation being rewarded by being allowed to see the face of God. I don’t really want to get into a discussion with someone trying to tell me that the events of Eze never came about and are therefore worthless. I simply wish to show that this is the explanation for the prophecy in Daniel 12:2. As for what this defining event is, I think God is keeping it a secret for that time.

Your second question contains an error on your part, one which Retrobyter also did not catch.

While the Jewish calendar consists of 12 30-day months (360 days) because of the use of the lunar cycle, they have been quite aware from the beginning that this does not make up a full year. As a result, there are several days added to this cycle every year to make up the difference. In other words, the Jews calculated their months by the Moon but they calculated their years by the Sun.

This is proven by simply looking at the Jewish calendar and you will see that each year begins on the same day, otherwise their months would shift (like it does in the Muslim calendar, which does not make this adjustment) during each year to different times, which it does not. In other words, the fact that Jewish Holidays occur at the same time every year (like Passover and such) is a simple proof that a Jewish Year is 365 1/4 days long. In contrast, Ramadan, the Muslim holiday, happens at different times of the year because they DONT use a solar year to base their calendar on like the Jews (and most of the rest of us) do.

Therefore, when the Bible mentions a month, they are referring to 30 days. This is also proven in the Bible when it tells us in Rev 11:2-3 that the 42 months and the 1260 days are the same period (1260 divided by 30 = 42, like it says). However, when the Bible mentions a year, it is always 365 1/4 days long. This is why they use the term 3 1/2 TIMES (not years) in Daniel 12:7 and Rev 12:4 when referring to the 1260 day/42 month time period, because they acknowledge that it is not EXACTLY years (in the classic sense) they are speaking of, even though it is very close.

And yes, Retrobyter, it does fit exactly, doesn't it?

I would also like to point out that I appear to be the ONLY person presenting an interpretation that does not have to actually leave the Bible for it to work and to assign arbitrary events in history (which can never be proven, by the way) to try to fit it all together. Not only that, it is so simple to understand that even a child can grasp it.

I'm sorry, but I've got to be honest. You may not leave the Scriptures on the whole, but you sure do bounce around within them to get all your numbers to add up.

CONTEXT is the key, not numbers. One should make sure that the numbers SHOULD be added up before attempting to do so.

I'm a mathematician, specifically, a computer programmer. I understand statistics and probability and know that people can do amazing things with numbers. Anyone can make the numbers say whatever they want them to say, legitimately as well as illegitimately.

For instance, I've seen some math tricks that resort to dividing by a variable, and it all LOOKS good, except that, in the calculations, that variable would have contained a ZERO! (It was used to prove that 4=5.)

Another trick seems to always work with a person's age and dates, but it's simply complicating the number with factors and then stripping the factors back off with their reciprocals!

People are always skewing the results of a test population by multiplying by some factor that never should have been in the calculations at all!

I've seen people do strange things with Biblical numbers by equating a year to 360 days, even though a year is actually 365.2422 days. That's an illegitimate practice, too, because even the Jewish year uses a leap month as often as every third year and at least every seventh year! It's based on the relationship of the planting cycle (the 365.2422-day year) and the lunar cycle (using a 29.5-day month).

We really don't need numbers that - WOW! - "magically" add up. What we need are ways we can be sure that particular passages of Scripture that are compared together SHOULD be compared together because their contexts prove that they are about the same time period or event. That's FAR more useful to an understanding of prophecy.

 

[JosyWales]

Retrobyter, I am also a numbers man, being an AutoCAD Tech and having just gone back to school and gotten an A in Advanced College Algebra this summer (I have over a 3.85 GPA and am on the Presidents List at college), so I can understand what you are getting at, but what I have shown you is not as you describe.

I can put this much more simply so that you can see that no manipulation of numbers is being done.

If you take the Seventy Weeks of Daniel and add ALL the numbers in Revelation attributed to the Seven Angels along with the last 3 1/2 days that the two Prophets lay dead before they rise, you get EXACTLY 2300 Days which is what Daniel 8 says it will be.

The only manipulation is how it all fits together, but that does not alter the facts I have just stated.

If you can possibly think to yourself that this simple combination is a coincidence, then you are welcome to do so, but to me it is too perfect to be ignored. Add to that that it suddenly makes all the other prophesies in both the Old and New Testiments make sense and work together seemlessly, and I think it is impossible to be ignored.

However, it is not my job to make you believe anything. God showed me and I am showing you.

 

[veteran]

One could probably discover several others ways to numerically arrive at the number 2300 using Biblical numerics, but that still does not prove that's what the Daniel 2300 days meaning really is.

 

[JosyWales]

Veteren, show me one.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JosyWales.

Retrobyter, I am also a numbers man, being an AutoCAD Tech and having just gone back to school and gotten an A in Advanced College Algebra this summer (I have over a 3.85 GPA and am on the Presidents List at college), so I can understand what you are getting at, but what I have shown you is not as you describe.

I can put this much more simply so that you can see that no manipulation of numbers is being done.

If you take the Seventy Weeks of Daniel and add ALL the numbers in Revelation attributed to the Seven Angels along with the last 3 1/2 days that the two Prophets lay dead before they rise, you get EXACTLY 2300 Days which is what Daniel 8 says it will be.

The only manipulation is how it all fits together, but that does not alter the facts I have just stated.

If you can possibly think to yourself that this simple combination is a coincidence, then you are welcome to do so, but to me it is too perfect to be ignored. Add to that that it suddenly makes all the other prophesies in both the Old and New Testiments make sense and work together seemlessly, and I think it is impossible to be ignored.

However, it is not my job to make you believe anything. God showed me and I am showing you.

I've been through Calculus 1, 2, and 3, Differential Equations, Statistics and Probability, Trigonometry, and Discrete Mathematics as well as Advanced College Algebra. I've also had several courses that required higher mathematics, such as the Fundamentals of Logic Design, Statics, Dynamics, Fluid Dynamics, Electricity and Electronics, Physics, Modern Physics (which included Quantum Mechanics, Nuclear Physics, and General Relativity), and Feedback Control Systems. I do have a degree in Computer Engineering and have passed the IEEE Engineering Exam. I can design a computer from the transistor level. I know how to program robotics and can build an AI (Aritificial Intelligence) system. I had a 3.82 GPA in H.S. and was Valedictorian. At the Community College level, I earned two degrees, an A.S. in Data Processing (Computer Programming with Electronics Specialization) and an A.A. in pre-Engineering with a 4.000 and 3.977 GPA, respectively. (The only B I got was in Macro Economics. I wasn't interested at the time.) At the University level, I earned a B.S.Cp.E. with an overall 3.548 GPA. Separately, I have a B.S. degree from a Bible college. SO WHAT?! NONE of that matters in the long run!

There have to be REASONS why one would choose to add up certain numbers! Has there been ANY indication that one should add up THOSE particular numbers? How do we know that there is a connection between that sum and the number from Dani'el 8? Maybe it's just a coincidence! After all, it's not EXACTLY the same as the number given in Dani'el 8! As I've said before, numbers are just numbers without units and a proper definition as to what those numbers represent. Yes, they all have the same units, "days," but "days per ... (WHAT?)" What do these "x days" represent? and WHY should they be added together to get anything else?

It's like trying to get some linkage between the two "666"s in the Bible! Sure, we have the "number of his name" in Revelation 13:18, and we have the amount of money that came in to Shlomo's coffers in a single year, "666 talents of gold," in 1 Kings 10:14, but is there indeed a connection between the two or is it just some fluke coincidence? I'd say it's just a coincidence. After all, we're not told in EITHER passage that there is a connection, and yet, there are some who would SWEAR that "God told them" there was a connection. I say, baloney.

 

[JosyWales]

Retrobyter, I am glad we agree that the teachings of men do not always equate into understanding of the Bible. Personally, I would not even have mentioned my ability to understand numbers had you not thought it significant to bring it up in the first place. Actually, it is the fact that even a 5th grader can understand what I am saying here is the point I am making.

You see, I backward engineered this to find what I am showing you.

In other words, I didn’t figure it out because I am so smart, but because God showed me the answer by strength of the Holy Spirit (which is the Energy of Life) and then left it up to me to find out how it could be possible, because I knew the Bible had to support it for it to be real.

With this in mind, I began to look in the Bible for ways to support what God had shown me for my own peace of mind, for what He showed me did not fit into anything I had ever heard or been taught by anyone I had ever met, be they Bible teachers or otherwise.

As a result, I began to look at the Bible with a much more open mind and after having read it through, cover to cover, several times, and having read Daniel and then Revelation and Zechariah, several thousand times (literally), it became clear to me that there was an obvious corrolation between certain events.

At some point, I came to wonder if, since Daniel used numbers for the 2300 days, and if Revelation was speaking of the same time period that Daniel was, which became obvious to me that it must, then I should see some relationship between the two that would show how these two books related to each other.

Since I knew that starting with the 5th Angel of Revelation to the resurrection of the Two Witnesses, a sequence of exact time was explicitly given to us, I wondered what would happen if I simply added them up? I initially thought that they would simply add up to 2300 days and that would supply my link.

However that didn't happen.

They only added up to 1809 and 3/4 days plus 1 hour.

I was both confused and disappointed to be honest, but I decided to take it one more step.

Since I was looking for 2300 days, I decided to subtract this number from it.

I noticed that I had 490 days difference.

That number seemed awfully familiar to me.

Suddenly I realized that 490 days is the same as 70 weeks, which, as we know is how long God tells Daniel in Ch 9 that the trouble given to his people will last.

It was then that it all became clear to me.

This was why no times are listed concerning the first 4 Angels of Revelation. It is because this is time that is covered by the 70 weeks. It also explains why the 70 weeks is divided into 3 periods of 7, 62 and 1. It is because, just like in Daniel, the times of trouble were interlaced with the times of peace.

This also means that the 2300 days are real days and the 70 weeks are real weeks, just like they are in Revelation.

Retrobyter has pointed out that it only adds up to 2299 ¾ days and 1 hour, and not to 2300 days exactly, but he forgets that the prophesy in Daniel says that it lasts UNTO the 2300 days and since the last day is ¾ of a day plus 1 hour, it fits prophecy perfectly.

It also meant that the Messiah mentioned in Daniel 9 was not Jesus, but was someone else and who else did Daniel speak of? Of course, in Daniel 12, Daniel states that Michael will stand to save the children of his people.

The prophesies of Eze 9 of the Six Men who wreak havoc on the earth and the one clothed in linen who goes before them now make sense as well as many other prophesies, like the one listed in Zechariah concerning the colored Horses and the Angel of the Lord who stands among them, for instance.

This also solves many other mysteries that I will not go into at this time as well.

Anyway, if you wish to discard this method of thinking as erroneous, then that is your prerogative. At least you can never say no one told you.

 

[veteran]

Veteren, show me one.

I don't get into the Bible Codes junk, nor the Kabbalistic Gematria stuff. I leave that to occultists that 'think' they know but don't.

That kind of stuff is a nothing but a trap, same as those trying to determine who the antichrist is by doing numerology on titles of the pope and such to fit the number 666. All that is a path away from the simplicity God put in His Word so we could easily understand what's to occur in the last days.

 

[JosyWales]

Hmm, that's funny, I thought all I had done was simply taken all the number of days that God gives us in the Bible concerning this time and added them all up. Pretty straight forward in my opinion and not at all like the convoluted mess most everyone else has bought into.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JosyWales.

No, you just have your VERY OWN convoluted mess! Your "reverse engineering" was just what I was talking about; making ... no ... FORCING the numbers to fit into what you wanted them to say! It's not right, but I can see I'm not going to get anywhere with you. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

I believe you're dead wrong in all of this, and I don't for a moment believe that God has led you into such confusion, but - hey - you'll believe what you want to believe, right or wrong. Ask yourself, "What does all of this really matter as far as prophecy?" "How does this help me to win others to the Messiah Yeshua`?"

Lord bless you.

 

[JosyWales]

Well Retrobyter, I respect your view to disagree with me. After all, if you actually admitted that what I have shown you made sense, you would have to also admit that the stuff you believe is false. This is not likely I can see.

I do have to stick with the fact that what I have presented is very straight forward and could be understood even by a child, so calling it a convoluted mess is a bit ridiculous. I mean I hear everything on this board from "its already happened" to "we are all flying up in the air to make a gettaway". It's almost like a comedy act, but I am not sure God is laughing.

As for what good trying to tell anyone the truth does anyone, well, I guess time will tell. If these events are just around the corner, then maybe it has more significance than you think. It might just be the knowledge that allows some folks to keep their faith when the false interpretations they are so sure of fail.

 

[neophyte]

Both the Books of Daniel and Revelation are two examples of apocalyptic writing. These works were written in a four hundred year period and under similar circumstances. Apocalyptic literature is written to people who are suffering from persecution. Its whole intention is to assure its readers/ audience that the God of history is in control of the present situation so that one need not fear:the persecution will end and good will triumph over evil.
The function of apocalyptic literature might be compared to the function of a prophet. A prophet is not a fortune -teller. His role is not to see into the future but to speak for God in the contemporary situation.

 

[revturmoil]

In other words, I didn’t figure it out because I am so smart, but because God showed me the answer by strength of the Holy Spirit (which is the Energy of Life) and then left it up to me to find out how it could be possible, because I knew the Bible had to support it for it to be real.

Red flags should go up when people say these kind of things.

 

[JosyWales]

Ahh well, here we go.

I ran into people who spoke like Neophyte at the University. They taught in religion class that there is no such thing as prophesy. Prophets did not see the future and the Bible never speaks of coming events because no one can know them.

I disagreed then and I still do.

There are too many examples of the future being fortold to think otherwise such as:

Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give [me] my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver
Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Which is identified in the New Testement here:

Mat 26:15 And said [unto them], What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver
Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

This is only one of many such that shows that the Prophets actually did forsee future events. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, well, off base to say the least.

Kaoticprofit, you are right about one thing. If I can't even get people here to see whats written clearly in the Bible, then showing them (and you) any of the wonders God is done for me is foolish on my part. This is why I stand only on the Bible and not events that have happened to me in my life. I was goaded into saying that much, but I will surely never tell you more.

Now if you can actually come up with something concrete that proves that what I am showing you in the Bible is wrong, then do so. What you are doing now is just diversionary because you have nothing else.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JosyWales.

I've just gotta mention the repercussions of you viewpoint. First, by assuming the "seventy Sevens" refers to 490 days rather than 490 years, when did/will these 490 days begin? And, when did/will they end? Since the "time, times, and half a time" were thought to refer to years (3.5 years) as one half of a "Seven," do these words now refer to days also? How do we know, either way?

Just a few questions that arise from your viewpoint. There are probably others, as well.