The "twice dead" are of the beast that was (alive) but is now dead

[PinSeeker]

In your view what would be the result of an elect, born again person not heeding those warnings, specifically from an eternal perspective?

The following passage is one of the passages referenced, so I assume you're saying this is something we all need to take to heart.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

You said that the passages that were quoted are warnings for all of us who are born again. So, with that in mind, what is the end result that we would expect if we were to "depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" while "Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having" our "conscience seared with a hot iron"? What are the consequences of departing from the faith in the way that Paul described that could happen to any of us if we're not careful?

Now, this is a tongue-in-cheek response, but... <smile> ...we might get a smaller mansion in heaven... <smile>

Sorry... I mean, there's a point to be taken from that, but...<smile>

No, Jesus talks about the greatest and the least in heaven, so I do think each member of the elect will fall somewhere in this spectrum. One thing we can say for sure ~ because Scripture, which is all true, does ~ is that, as Paul says in Romans 2:4, God "will render to each one according to his works..." and the works of some will have been greater than those of others, even among the elect.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now, this is a tongue-in-cheek response, but... <smile> ...we might get a smaller mansion in heaven... <smile>

Sorry... I mean, there's a point to be taken from that, but...<smile>

No, Jesus talks about the greatest and the least in heaven, so I do think each member of the elect will fall somewhere in this spectrum. One thing we can say for sure ~ because Scripture, which is all true, does ~ is that, as Paul says in Romans 2:4, God "will render to each one according to his works..." and the works of some will have been greater than those of others, even among the elect.

Grace and peace to you.

So, you do indeed believe that an elect person can "depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron", but still maintain a right standing with God even if their reward isn't quite as good as it could have been otherwise. I disagree with your understanding as, it seems to me, that if you depart from the faith then you no longer have faith and faith is required for salvation.

We don't need to go on and on about this here, but I just wanted to get clarification on what exactly you think are the consequences of not heeding those warnings that are given to all of us. Honestly, from your perspective, it seems that those warnings are not really anything to take very seriously. That's how I see it.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You must have realized that your view that people will be dead and unconscious while standing before the throne before being cast into the lake of fire makes no sense. If I'm misrepresenting your view by saying that, don't blame me, blame yourself for foolishly not being willing to bother clarifying what you were saying.

I never said anything remotely close to that in my post, which proves you cannot understand my speech nor hear my words.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never said anything remotely close to that in my post, which proves you cannot understand my speech nor hear my words.

Don't be a jerk. Grow up. Think of all the times I've responded to your posts. Have I ever asked you for clarification before? No. So, I have been able to understand what you're saying a vast majority of the time, but in this case I'm not sure what you're saying. Don't take offense by that or be an immature little child and act like I must be the problem here. What is your problem with clarifying what you were saying? You were contrasting being cast alive into the lake of fire with being cast dead into the lake of fire. I don't know you mean by that, so can you explain it so I don't have to guess? Am I asking too much here? I don't think so.

 

[Behold]

Basically these are those who had fallen away from the faith.

Regarding Salvation........>"falling away from Faith" or "falling from Grace" .. does not mean you've lost your Salvation.

What it means is you dont actually understand it, and because of this your faith is ruined.

A Christian's ruined faith, is a sad situation, but it has no relevance regarding being born again, as you can't stop being born again.
See, if you are born again, then your faith issue, happened after the spiritual birth, so that means your Salvation is secure, but your mind of faith, is become deceived.

So, You can become faith ruined, and a "christian" Forum is a good place for that to happen.

In fact this very Thread is trying to ruin faith, in Real Believers.... and not just this Thread.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Regarding Salvation........>"falling away from Faith" or "falling from Grace" .. does not mean you've lost your Salvation.

Falling back to a life of sin unto perdition does not sound like salvation to me. To abide in the faith is to abide in Christ.

Jesus said in John 15:1-10 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2 Every branch inme that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.3 Now ye are cleanthrough the word which I have spoken unto you.4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide inmy love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
Ok, some claim all Christians still "abide in sin",and that they "keep on sinning" even though they claim to have been born again of God's Holy Spirit. And even despite that ongoing disobedience and reoccurring sin they proclaim you still "abide inChrist". This my friends is false doctrine, because you cannot remain in sin and also remain inChrist at the same time.
Notice Jesus said in order to bear fruit one must"abide in Him", that also means believing in and abiding in His words. And here is what it means to abide in Him…

1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
The "seed" mentioned there is "Christ".

And again to "abide in Christ" is to 1 John 3:6“Whosoeverabideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinnethhath not seen him, neither known him.”

So the simple truth is in order to bear good fruit we must "abide in Christ", which is to "abide in God's Word". And as we saw above to "abide in His love" we must keep His commandments" And to abide in Christ and remain in Christ one must stop sinning, because sinning is not abiding in Gods Word, neither is sinning abiding in the faith of Christ.
Now if one is still sinning are they truly "inChrist"? Not according to the words of God. Also we are shown in John 15 what happens if one inHim does not bear good fruit, Jesus said in John 15:2 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:”
So anyone in him that does not bear good fruit he takes away, meaning you will no longer "abide in"the Life of Christ (the vine).


And not only that we are told in verse 6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
That is not salvation people, that is Destruction.
Also we cannot bear good fruit on our own except we abide in Him John 15:4 “Abide in me, and I inyou. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”

And again, to abide in Christ means you cannotabide in sin. Sin is not good fruit.
And if you remain in sin, then you truly don’t "abide in Christ" do you? And as Jesus said, those who do not "abide in Him" are cast forth as a branch, and then gathered and cast into the fireand burned.

Christ is not a vine of sin (minister of sin) Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Anyone who says you can abide in sin and still remain in Christ at the same time is a liar and a deceiver.
It is written in 2 John 9-10 “ Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”

It is your sins that separate you from God…
Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”
Just as Jesus is separated from sinners…..
Hebrews 7:26 “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate fromsinners, and made higher than the heavens;”

And again "in Christ" there is no sin….. 1 John 3…..
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

And to Love God and to "abide in Christ" is to keep His commandments….
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Abide in the Light of the Truth….1 John 2…..
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not inhim.5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”
Did Jesus walk in sin? Of course not!
Jesus said in John 12:46 " I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not "abide in darkness."

Meaning you should not abide in "the works of darkness," which is sin.
Also no false doctrine, or lie is of the Truth…..21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is ofthe truth.”
Just as the prince of this world and his spirit has no place in Christ either…. John 14:30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”

Sin and darkness do not abide in the Light of Christ, and neither do those who still abide in sin and in darkness.

Jesus said whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin, and a servant of sin will not abide in His house forever.

 

[Behold]

Falling back to a life of sin unto perdition does not sound like salvation to me. To abide in the faith is to abide in Christ.

I dont read your excessive cut and paste, nor does anyone else.
(just in case you were wondering)... @Stewardofthemystery


Listen...

We are not saved by "abiding in faith".

We are not saved by Faith.
We are Saved THROUGH Faith....

See GOD is the SAVIOR, not faith.

I'll prove it to you.

Did FAITH hang on The Cross for you? If it did, then keep on believing in Faith, instead of Trusting in Christ @Stewardofthemystery .

Listen,
We are saved by God, through Christ, and the only proof of this is to be "born again".

Talking about "faith" is nothing... .
Being born again is the Proof of Salvation.


Also, i can show you millions of Christians, who watch ""adult type"" movies on Netflix, or on Cable, and they are certainly not "worshipping the Lord in Faith" when they are doing that 7 nights a week.

I can show you "Christians" who watched "Game of Thrones" for 7 yrs..........the rapes, the incests , the extreme sexuality, and they were not "worshipping the Lord by faith"... every week they watched it for 7 yrs.

So, your idea of Salvation, is to maintain it by self effort. @Stewardofthemystery , and that is not God's Salvation.

What you are posting is.. "SELF Righteousness" which has nothing to do with faith in Christ, other then to not actually have it.

See, Faith in Christ, believes that The Same Jesus who saved you when you were a sinner, now keeps you saved for the same reason.

Broken faith, false faith, or no faith, is.....>>"Yes, Jesus saved me, but now i have to ... do, and do, and dont do.. so that ME ME ME< keep ME SAVED"

See that?
That is NO FAITH in Christ, = pretending to have it.
That is a deceived faith, a broken faith and a false faith.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, you do indeed believe that an elect person can "depart from the faith..."

I do, actually. However... and this is a really big 'however'... <smile> Huge, actually... <smile> He or she will return, having never truly departed, but only ~ for a time ~ thinking he or she had. We are kept in the power of God... which you agree with, I know... and even our faith is a gift of the Spirit, which, like all the gifts we are given by God and the calling He issues inwardly to us, is irrevocable (Romans 11:29). And... "He Who began a good work in us will..." (will, not might) "...bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6). Do you understand what I'm saying now?

We don't need to go on and on about this here...

Agreed.

...I just wanted to get clarification on what exactly you think are the consequences of not heeding those warnings that are given to all of us.

Understood. Fair enough.

Honestly, from your perspective, it seems that those warnings are not really anything to take very seriously.

Oh, boy. Well that's certainly not my perspective. At all.

That's how I see it.

Hm. Well maybe now you see it differently... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do, actually. However... and this is a really big 'however'... <smile> Huge, actually... <smile> He or she will return, having never truly departed, but only ~ for a time ~ thinking he or she had. We are kept in the power of God... which you agree with, I know... and even our faith is a gift of the Spirit, which, like all the gifts we are given by God and the calling He issues inwardly to us, is irrevocable (Romans 11:29). And... "He Who began a good work in us will..." (will, not might) "...bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6). Do you understand what I'm saying now?

I understand that you minimize the consequences of departing from the faith and ignore man's responsibility in his salvation (in your view he has none). Departing from the faith has much more dire consequences than what you are saying.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

You say it results in a smaller mansion while smiling and acting like it's not really a big deal. That doesn't line up with what I read in passages like the above that I quoted.

Oh, boy. Well that's certainly not my perspective. At all.

Isn't it? You say the consequences of departing from the faith are just a smaller mansion in heaven or whatever. Is that really something that concerns you (oh no, I don't want to end up with a smaller mansion!) and motivates you to make sure you work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12)?

Hm. Well maybe now you see it differently... <smile>

Nope. But, I'm sure that doesn't surprise you.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Also, i can show you millions of Christians, who watch ""adult type"" movies on Netflix, or on Cable, and they are certainly not "worshipping the Lord in Faith" when they are doing that 7 nights a week.

I can show you "Christians" who watched "Game of Thrones" for 7 yrs..........the rapes, the incests , the extreme sexuality, and they were not "worshipping the Lord by faith"... every week they watched it for 7 yrs.

You need to look up the definition of what it means to be Christian.

So, your idea of Salvation, is to maintain it by self effort.

Never said that.

What you are posting is.. "SELF Righteousness" which has nothing to do with faith in Christ, other then to not actually have it.

If you are truly made righteous by Christs imputed Righteousness then you will also do righteousness.

See, Faith in Christ, believes that The Same Jesus who saved you when you were a sinner, now keeps you saved for the same reason.

Jesus did not save us so we could keep on sinning, He came to make us free from sin.

 

[PinSeeker]

I understand that you minimize the consequences of departing from the faith and ignore man's responsibility in his salvation...

Okay, well stop understanding that, because that's not what I do at all; never would I do such a thing.

(in your view he has none). Departing from the faith has much more dire consequences than what you are saying.

Well, if you say that, then I say you're not really hearing what I'm saying.

You say it results in a smaller mansion...

Dude. I said that was a tongue-in-cheek thing. Goodness gracious. Not something to be flippant about, certainly, but that was not my intent.

Isn't it?

Not at all.

Nope.

Okay, well, to each his own.

I'm sure that doesn't surprise you.

No; when you grab on to something, it seems near impossible for you to let it go.

You know, I gotta say, SI... In person, you may very well be a quite pleasant conversationalist and person, but here not so much.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You know, I gotta say, SI... In person, you may very well be a quite pleasant conversationalist and person, but here not so much.

I honestly do not care what you think about that. I don't sugarcoat the truth. You find me unpleasant because we disagree very strongly on soteriology. If you think you were being pleasant when we discussed that topic in detail awhile back then you are fooling yourself. You can look back at those discussions and see for yourself how unpleasant you were. But, go ahead and keep fooling yourself into thinking you're holier than everyone if you want. That's your free will choice.

 

[PinSeeker]

I honestly do not care what you think about that.

That seems to me a problem, but fair enough.

I don't sugarcoat the truth.

Neither do I.

You find me unpleasant because we disagree very strongly...

No, that's not it. <smile> Your manner of "conversation" is very, very abrasive. And not just with me. <smile>

on soteriology. If you think you were being pleasant when we discussed that topic in detail awhile back then you are fooling yourself. You can look back at those discussions and see for yourself how unpleasant you were. But, go ahead and keep fooling yourself into thinking you're holier than everyone if you want. That's your free will choice.

Ah, okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, that's not it. <smile> Your manner of "conversation" is very, very abrasive. And not just with me. <smile>

<smile>

 

[Scott Downey]

Considered as Twice Dead, read how these people are described in Jude.
There is no salvation for them.

God must grant repentance to believe the truth and escape the snare of the devil.
To be like those twice dead, tells me Jude is telling us God will not grant them repentance to believe the gospel
Thier doom is certain, as is written in the book.


24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[Scott Downey]

Okay, but you should refer to them in a different way to avoid any possible confusion because the phrase "those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" will make everyone immediately think of 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

"those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord"
Yes,
Should definitely always be considered in the original context of those God saves when Christ returns
WE are none other than us saved people who are of God

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

The unsaved are never always with the Lord.

And those God saves are those God has saved from eternity past from the beginning of time, because for the brethren whom God loves, God from the beginning chose them for salvation

He gave us everlasting consolation, means never ending.

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.