The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[bdavidc]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

A good verse to begin with is Revelation 12:1:



The woman represents the carrier of the 'seed of the woman' that began in the Garden of Eden. In the context of Revelation 12:1, the woman carrying the seed at that particular moment in time was Sarah, who gives birth to Isaac. Similarly, the 'manchild' represents the carrier of Abraham's seed on the father's side.

Years pass and now the seed of the woman, through genealogy of the Israelites, flees into the wilderness of the Exodus. For 1260 years, the seed is nourished until Jesus is born. The Tabernacle in the Wilderness begins the 1260 years:



The 'place prepared' is the body of Jesus, i.e., the Tabernacle:



Again, the Israelites took care of their Messiah, baby Jesus, for 1260 years. At the same time, the Two Witnesses begin to testify. From Moses to John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses testify for 1260 years until the birth of Jesus:



All of the verses match up perfectly.

Here is a basic timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds the Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place (Messiah is cut off).
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

And there you have it. The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

PS: To those of you who believe you are one of the Two Witnesses, I am sorry to tell you... it aint you kid.

Anyone who can read the Bible for themselves knows better than what you just wrote. That is not what the text is saying, and it is not "fitting Scripture," it is making it up as you go. Revelation 11 very clearly says the Two Witnesses are in the future context of the Great Tribulation, prophesy for 1,260 days, then the beast makes war against them and kills them in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:3–8). Their dead bodies lie in the street for 3.5 days, then God miraculously raises them up in the sight of the world (Revelation 11:9–12). That has never happened in all of history. Your assertion that the Two Witnesses were Moses and John the Baptist ignores the clear words of the prophecy and stretches the time periods into something God never said. The 1,260 days are not stretched into 1,260 years by the text, it says "days," and the surrounding events in Revelation make it clear they happen in the same end-time sequence as the seventh trumpet and the final judgments. If your interpretation forces the words to mean something entirely different than what is written, then it is not the Bible you are believing, it is your own invention.

 

[Douggg]

Anyone who can read the Bible for themselves knows better than what you just wrote. That is not what the text is saying, and it is not "fitting Scripture," it is making it up as you go. Revelation 11 very clearly says the Two Witnesses are in the future context of the Great Tribulation, prophesy for 1,260 days, then the beast makes war against them and kills them in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:3–8). Their dead bodies lie in the street for 3.5 days, then God miraculously raises them up in the sight of the world (Revelation 11:9–12). That has never happened in all of history. Your assertion that the Two Witnesses were Moses and John the Baptist ignores the clear words of the prophecy and stretches the time periods into something God never said. The 1,260 days are not stretched into 1,260 years by the text, it says "days," and the surrounding events in Revelation make it clear they happen in the same end-time sequence as the seventh trumpet and the final judgments. If your interpretation forces the words to mean something entirely different than what is written, then it is not the Bible you are believing, it is your own invention.

Here are two charts that have the 1260 days of the two witnesses on them. The 1260 days is during the first half of the 7 years.

 

[Exegesis]

When were the Two Witnesses killed in Jerusalem...

Where did you get Jerusalem from?

Revelation 11:8 - "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

The word 'Jerusalem' is not present. We must be careful not to make a faulty assumption. Note that Egypt is not a city.

The word 'spiritually' is of monumental importance to interpreting the verse properly:

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The 'great city' is a spiritual city, not a physical one. The streets that the Two Witnesses lie in are not physical streets either. This is a revolutionary concept that most are blind to. Much is revealed by it. We are potentially looking at the underworld here.

...and their bodies lying in the street for 3.5 days?

Remember, this is part of Daniel's 70 week prophecy in which the day/year principle applies. We are looking at the 'middle of the week' reference here.

 

[Exegesis]

Revelation 11 very clearly says the Two Witnesses are in the future context of the Great Tribulation,

No it doesn't actually. And, btw, we have been in the so called 'Great Tribulation' since 70AD:

Matthew 24:21 - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

The above verse is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem. The tribulation never ended.

...prophesy for 1,260 days...

As per Daniel's prophecy, one day = one year. Why do you cheat and change it to something not Biblical?

...then the beast makes war against them and kills them in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:3–8).

Again, the word 'Jerusalem' is not there.

Their dead bodies lie in the street for 3.5 days

3-1/2 years from around the time John the Baptist dies to the Crucifixion (middle the week):

Luke 16:16 - "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Have you never heard that the Two Witnesses are symbolic of the Law and Prophets?

​

• Law = Moses
• Prophet = Elijah/John the Baptist

To state that I am 'making it up as you go' is bearing false witness on me. Jesus and the Two Witnesses say stop your tomfoolery.

​

...then God miraculously raises them up in the sight of the world...

Yep:

Matthew 27:51-54 - "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God."

There was an earthquake too.

That has never happened in all of history.

And yet the verses I quoted prove you wrong.

If your interpretation forces the words to mean something entirely different than what is written, then it is not the Bible you are believing, it is your own invention.

Meditate on what you just wrote and look in the mirror.

 

[shepherdsword]

Where did you get Jerusalem from?



The word 'Jerusalem' is not present. We must be careful not to make a faulty assumption. Note that Egypt is not a city.

The word 'spiritually' is of monumental importance to interpreting the verse properly:



The 'great city' is a spiritual city, not a physical one. The streets that the Two Witnesses lie in are not physical streets either. This is a revolutionary concept that most are blind to. Much is revealed by it. We are potentially looking at the underworld here.



Remember, this is part of Daniel's 70 week prophecy in which the day/year principle applies. We are looking at the 'middle of the week' reference here.

Rv 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

It's pretty obvious this refers to Jerusalem.

 

[Exegesis]

It's pretty obvious this refers to Jerusalem.

It is not obvious. How is Jerusalem the same as Egypt and Sodom which are two very different things?

Where did Jesus go immediately after his crucifixion?

Matthew 12:40 - "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Jesus went to the 'heart of the earth', a spiritual place like Egypt and Sodom. Get it?

The underworld.

 

[David in NJ]

Where did you get Jerusalem from?



The word 'Jerusalem' is not present. We must be careful not to make a faulty assumption. Note that Egypt is not a city.

The word 'spiritually' is of monumental importance to interpreting the verse properly:



The 'great city' is a spiritual city, not a physical one. The streets that the Two Witnesses lie in are not physical streets either. This is a revolutionary concept that most are blind to. Much is revealed by it. We are potentially looking at the underworld here.



Remember, this is part of Daniel's 70 week prophecy in which the day/year principle applies. We are looking at the 'middle of the week' reference here.

Revelation 11:8 - "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Location on Earth = "the great city" = "where also our Lord was crucified."

Please notice how the Holy Spirit signifies "spiritually" with the actual location = "where also our Lord was crucified."
This signifying that Jerusalem on earth is in bondage to sin and is dead "spiritually"

 

[soberxp]

Sodom and Egypt

Egypt
A land of slavery, symbolizing the bondage of sin.

Sodom
The nature of evil.Horizontal spread of moral corruption.

 

[Exegesis]

Revelation 11:8 - "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Location on Earth = "the great city" = "where also our Lord was crucified."

Please notice how the Holy Spirit signifies "spiritually" with the actual location = "where also our Lord was crucified."
This signifying that Jerusalem on earth is in bondage to sin and is dead "spiritually"

Did you see my last post? The grave where Jesus was in the 'heart of the earth' was in that area correct? Sheol.

Let me try this...

Have you ever heard Christians claim that the Two Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah because they never died? Said Christians then go on to say that the Two Witnesses *will* die once they come in the future to be killed.

Now think of the Transfiguration. There was a dispute about the body of Moses. Was Moses raised so that he could fulfill the Two Witnesses prophecy? In other words, were Moses and Elijah sent to the times of Jesus to be killed? Was that the real meaning of the Transfiguration?

Are Moses and Elijah figuratively dead and 'in the streets of the great city'? There could be a connection there.

What about the Rich Man in torments?

Luke 16:27-31 - "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Look at how it connects the underworld to Moses and the Prophets. It even speaks of 'one' (Moses?) being raised from the dead to warn people. These verses aren't there to look pretty you know.

Moses and the Prophets: Written twice.
Raised from the dead: Written twice.

Two Witnesses.

See it?

 

[ScottA]

Don't be too stuffy in studying the Bible. Are you denying God's creation? Well, if the earth is a prison, a school, what else can we learn besides the Bible?

On the contrary, do take care not to look at the organic nature of creation as a source of knowledge. It is a product not the source. To focus on such is like focusing on symptoms rather than the root cause.

The created world is but an "image", like the words of a parable...where the object is never the subject. This is the Word from God since the beginning...as man made in the "image" of God is made of the same elements as the universe.

 

[ScottA]

All,

There are many good comments and posts here. Yet many of them still include the tenets brought in by "false teachers" following the ascension of Christ. You can know these false tenets, as they contradict Jesus' words describing His return and all that "must shortly take place" as "soon"--which even the events of 70AD do not quite fulfill. 70AD was just a foreshadowing--but also a snare for those who would "believe a lie"--which still taints the doctrine of most among Christendom.

 

[shepherdsword]

It is not obvious. How is Jerusalem the same as Egypt and Sodom which are two very different things?

What city was Jesus crucified in.......answer....Jerusalem.

Where did Jesus go immediately after his crucifixion?

What city was Jesus crucified in?

Jesus went to the 'heart of the earth', a spiritual place like Egypt and Sodom. Get it?

The underworld.

The term "Sodom and Egypt" has nothing to do with the underworld. It is a metaphor for certain types of sin.

 

[David in NJ]

Sodom and Egypt

Egypt
A land of slavery, symbolizing the bondage of sin.

Sodom
The nature of evil.Horizontal spread of moral corruption.

Which is the present day spiritually corrupt condition of Jerusalem on earth.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Galatians ch4

 

[David in NJ]

On the contrary, do take care not to look at the organic nature of creation as a source of knowledge. It is a product not the source. To focus on such is like focusing on symptoms rather than the root cause.

The created world is but an "image", like the words of a parable...where the object is never the subject. This is the Word from God since the beginning...as man made in the "image" of God is made of the same elements as the universe.

Good afternoon ScottA,

We love and appreciate art so much that we pay large amounts of money to have art in our homes because of the beauty and the message we receive from the inspiration of the creator who transposed his/her mind into their work = so also is the Creation

We certainly can perceive a Creator thru the Creation and marvel at the exceedingly great intelligence, power and love which includes us.

Because of this TRUTH for all mankind, satan has distracted/blinded the world from SEEING = Romans 1:18-23

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

 

[David in NJ]

Did you see my last post? The grave where Jesus was in the 'heart of the earth' was in that area correct? Sheol.

Let me try this...

Have you ever heard Christians claim that the Two Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah because they never died? Said Christians then go on to say that the Two Witnesses *will* die once they come in the future to be killed.

Now think of the Transfiguration. There was a dispute about the body of Moses. Was Moses raised so that he could fulfill the Two Witnesses prophecy? In other words, were Moses and Elijah sent to the times of Jesus to be killed? Was that the real meaning of the Transfiguration?

Are Moses and Elijah figuratively dead and 'in the streets of the great city'? There could be a connection there.

What about the Rich Man in torments?



Look at how it connects the underworld to Moses and the Prophets. It even speaks of 'one' (Moses?) being raised from the dead to warn people. These verses aren't there to look pretty you know.

Moses and the Prophets: Written twice.
Raised from the dead: Written twice.

Two Witnesses.

See it?

Good Afternoon @Exegesis

Thank You for your reply and i will soon respond.
SHALOM

 

[Douggg]

All,

There are many good comments and posts here. Yet many of them still include the tenets brought in by "false teachers" following the ascension of Christ. You can know these false tenets, as they contradict Jesus' words describing His return and all that "must shortly take place" as "soon"--which even the events of 70AD do not quite fulfill. 70AD was just a foreshadowing--but also a snare for those who would "believe a lie"--which still taints the doctrine of most among Christendom.

Since none to the trumpet and vial plagues have taken place yet, we can know that the phrase "must shortly take place" is God's perspective of shortly.

2Peter3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[ScottA]

Since none to the trumpet and vial plagues have taken place yet, we can know that the phrase "must shortly take place" is God's perspective of shortly.

No, that is still tainted with the false teachings of putting off all that certain among the early church could not then see...as what is of the Spirit is not visible to the man of flesh.

To the contrary, all those thing which Jesus said would shortly take place, took place (as He also said) during that generation present at the time, as He referred to who would see them, as "you" (will see). Which they did--but only in death.

Which is not to say, as some feared during Paul's day, that we all might have missed it. But rather, that just as the Lamb that was slain was slain before the foundation of the world, was only made manifest during the time of that generation--those things of Revelation were also before the foundation of the world--and are only revealed "here a little there a little" to all men during their own lives and times, and death. The exception being--as it is written--all truth was to come and that which was sealed, would come as the finish of the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets, only when the seventh angel is about to sound.

If you would like to name a vial or trump you believe has not yet occurred, I can further explain.

 

[David in NJ]

Did you see my last post? The grave where Jesus was in the 'heart of the earth' was in that area correct? Sheol.

Let me try this...

Have you ever heard Christians claim that the Two Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah because they never died? Said Christians then go on to say that the Two Witnesses *will* die once they come in the future to be killed.

Now think of the Transfiguration. There was a dispute about the body of Moses. Was Moses raised so that he could fulfill the Two Witnesses prophecy? In other words, were Moses and Elijah sent to the times of Jesus to be killed? Was that the real meaning of the Transfiguration?

Are Moses and Elijah figuratively dead and 'in the streets of the great city'? There could be a connection there.

What about the Rich Man in torments?



Look at how it connects the underworld to Moses and the Prophets. It even speaks of 'one' (Moses?) being raised from the dead to warn people. These verses aren't there to look pretty you know.

Moses and the Prophets: Written twice.
Raised from the dead: Written twice.

Two Witnesses.

See it?

The grave where Jesus was in the 'heart of the earth' was in that area correct? Sheol.

There are TWO distinct locations concerning the death of the Lord Jesus Christ

a.) His physical body was placed in a physical tomb on earth = same as being buried in a dirt grave as the location is the 'earth'

b.) His spirit/soul left His physical body when He died on the Cross = Luke 23:46
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And when He had said this, He breathed His last.

The soul of a person enters Sheol by first thru physical death = Psalm 49:14

Like sheep they sink down to Sheol; Death will be their shepherd; And the upright will rule over them in the morning, And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no lofty home.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now think of the Transfiguration. There was a dispute about the body of Moses. Was Moses raised so that he could fulfill the Two Witnesses prophecy? In other words, were Moses and Elijah sent to the times of Jesus to be killed? Was that the real meaning of the Transfiguration?

There is no indication that Moses and Elijah were in resurrected bodies.
As a matter of fact, they were not!!!

The Genuine Reason for Moses and ELijah appearing on the Mount where JESUS Transfiguration took place is...........................

To confirm to the Disciples exactly who JESUS is in relation to Moses and Elijah as well as more.........

 

[Douggg]

If you would like to name a vial or trump you believe has not yet occurred, I can further explain.

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

[soberxp]

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

These words really do not understand, do not know how to correctly understand.Maybe it's just a simple admission.