The Two Witnesses....two Men Or Two Groups Of Men?

[amigo de christo]

After four days Lazarus' body had decayed.

Being that GOD is in control , i would think not my friend . This was all in the glorious control of the LORD .

 

[Heart2Soul]

Being that GOD is in control , i would think not my friend . This was all in the glorious control of the LORD .

If you read the whole story Jesus knew the moment Lazarus died and said Lazarus is asleep...
John 11 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹¹ These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
¹² Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
¹³ Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
¹⁴ Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
¹⁵ And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

…
²³ Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
²⁴ Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
²⁵ Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
²⁶ And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

…
³² Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
³³ When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
³⁴ And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
³⁵ Jesus wept.

…
³⁸ Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
³⁹ Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
⁴⁰ Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
⁴¹ Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
⁴² And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
⁴³ And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
⁴⁴ And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

The whole point of Jesus delaying his arrival was intended....so that those who witnessed the miracle would see that he had power even over death.
Even though He had already raised the widow's son and Jairus daughter Lazarus death was different...his body in the natural was already decaying inside the tomb.
The widow's son had died but had not began decomposing, Jairus daughter was dying and as Jesus was on His way word came she died...again no decomposing body...
But Lazarus was beyond having a body that could be inhabited...so the miracle of raising Lazarus meant Jesus had to speak to His Father (perhaps to ask Him to send Lazarus spirit back to His body)
And when He spoke and said Lazarus come forth!
Notice Jesus didn't lay hands on him...(I can imagine why)...
3 miracles of raising someone from the dead...
1 had just died, 1 had died and was about to be buried, and 1 had died and was buried and had lain in the grave for 4 days already....
Interesting...very interesting...

 

[David in NJ]

After four days Lazarus' body had decayed.

Something to meditate on here as we discuss what God means by decay/corruption of the physical body.

He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’
And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’
Therefore He also says in another Psalm:
‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’
“For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;
but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Acts 13:34-37

 

[David in NJ]

Being that GOD is in control , i would think not my friend . This was all in the glorious control of the LORD .

Something to meditate on here as we discuss what God means by decay/corruption of the physical body.

He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’
And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’
Therefore He also says in another Psalm:
‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’
“For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;
but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Acts 13:34-37

 

[David in NJ]

Something to meditate on here as we discuss what God means by decay/corruption of the physical body.

He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’
And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’
Therefore He also says in another Psalm:
‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’
“For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;
but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Acts 13:34-37

So, there seems to be a definite scriptural 'decay/corruption' period of time.

 

[David in NJ]

The Man who walked this earth as The First Witness - The Lord Jesus Christ , the perfect lamb.
And the second witness The Body Of Christ - The Overcoming sons …

SEE Post #33

There are Two Literal Witnesses who are assigned specifically to Jerusalem by the LORD.

There has been and will continue to be Two Witnesses throughout the world unto His Coming - also by the LORD.

And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matt 24

Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts ch1

They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony.
And they did not love their lives
so as to shy away from death. Rev 12

Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14

SEE Post #33

 

[Ronald Nolette]

THE TWO WITNESSES​

Are these two literal entities or...two groups of witnesses?

Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth” These are the two olive trees AND the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.​

For some reason I always saw that verse as the olive trees and candlesticks being the same thing. They are not. He explains:

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, "What seest thou?" And I said, "I have looked, and behold, a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:"​

Christ of course is that One golden candlestick and from Him the olive trees and candlesticks receive the Holy Oil which gives His Light to the world. But, what are those olive trees and candlesticks...for they together are the two witnesses.

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.​

Christ, The Golden Candlestick was in the midst of seven candlesticks which He explains are "the seven churches." Notice that in the millennium He is with the seven churches but...not before the millennium. Then He is only among two churches.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks, The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.​

So, we see that candlesticks are churches and two of those seven are "standing before the God of the earth." [Revelation 11:4] Those two I believe would be Philadelphia and Smyrna because of what they teach. (another study for another time) There are many more folks than two that make up the congregation of those two churches/candlesticks. But, what of the two olive trees? What does that mean?

Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?​

We are told in [Zechariah 4:12-14] that the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth, are the two olive branches. Those branches have many twigs.Those two anointed ones are two of the seven churches and the two olive trees....both wild and natural.

Psalms 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead.Isaiah 43:10. Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.43:12 I have declared and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “that I am God.Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,​

In conclusion, the two witnesses, the two prophets, the two anointed ones are made up of two of the seven churches and two olive trees which are Gentile and of Israel. Together they take His message, the oil from Him, to the world.

2 individual dudes! Not a group! The group is the 144,000! You need to stop mysticizing the word of God and retranslating it. It is simple the language shows the singular.

 

[quietthinker]

Are these two literal entities or...two groups of witnesses?

The word 'witness' encompasses/embraces far more than merely 'men'

Creation is a witness to God....truth is a witness against lies.....light is a witness against darkness.....history is a witness to itself

 

[David in NJ]

The LORD could not touch the dead body of Lazarus - it would make Him Unclean before God.

Secondly, the reason HE spoke was to demonstrate to John and others this which would follow: John ch1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

What did the Word do in Genesis ch1 = "God said/spoke............." and it came into Being/Life

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Being that GOD is in control , i would think not my friend . This was all in the glorious control of the LORD .

But what you would also be saying is that if you opened up the grave of my father and mother, they would not have decayed. So why did they take the bones of Joseph with them when they left Egypt? Wouldn't they just have to take his sleeping body?

 

[quietthinker]

But what you would also be saying is that if you opened up the grave of my father and mother, they would not have decayed. So why did they take the bones of Joseph with them when they left Egypt? Wouldn't they just have to take his sleeping body?

'thou enquirest not wisely concerning this' :)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Something to meditate on here as we discuss what God means by decay/corruption of the physical body.

He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’
And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
‘I will give you the sure mercies of David.’
Therefore He also says in another Psalm:
‘You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.’
“For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;
but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Acts 13:34-37

Jesus is the only person ever said that his dead body did not see corruption. Is not Jesus the Creator?

 

[David in NJ]

But what you would also be saying is that if you opened up the grave of my father and mother, they would not have decayed. So why did they take the bones of Joseph with them when they left Egypt? Wouldn't they just have to take his sleeping body?

All that was left of Joseph were his bones - YES, he definitely decayed an his body/flesh was completely corrupted/gone.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

'thou enquirest not wisely concerning this' :)

Okay, QT, so do you believe Lazarus' body, after being dead for 4 days, did not see any corruption?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

All that was left of Joseph were his bones - YES, he definitely decayed an his body/flesh was completely corrupted/gone.

I agree, but why not believe then that Lazarus' dead body saw corruption after 4 whole days? My response is to someone who believes that he didn't, and that Jesus raised up a body that saw no corruption.

 

[David in NJ]

I agree, but why not believe then that Lazarus' dead body saw corruption after 4 whole days? My response is to someone who believes that he didn't, and that Jesus raised up a body that saw no corruption.

Some things are not crystal clear and are not answered at this point in time - we have to wait.

i also am curious as to what happened to Lazarus after his resurrection - the Bible does not tell us.

However, he may have died again for this reason - only at the Second Coming of Christ is the consummate Resurrection of the Just and our Transformation into New Glorified Immortal Bodies made in His Likeness - 1 Cor 15 , 1 John 3:1-3

 

[quietthinker]

Okay, QT, so do you believe Lazarus' body, after being dead for 4 days, did not see any corruption?

as Mary his sister said, it was probably on the nose

 

[MatthewG]

THE TWO WITNESSES​

Are these two literal entities or...two groups of witnesses?

Revelation 11:3-4 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth” These are the two olive trees AND the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth.​

For some reason I always saw that verse as the olive trees and candlesticks being the same thing. They are not. He explains:

Zechariah 4:2 And said unto me, "What seest thou?" And I said, "I have looked, and behold, a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:"​

Christ of course is that One golden candlestick and from Him the olive trees and candlesticks receive the Holy Oil which gives His Light to the world. But, what are those olive trees and candlesticks...for they together are the two witnesses.

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.​

Christ, The Golden Candlestick was in the midst of seven candlesticks which He explains are "the seven churches." Notice that in the millennium He is with the seven churches but...not before the millennium. Then He is only among two churches.

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks, The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.​

So, we see that candlesticks are churches and two of those seven are "standing before the God of the earth." [Revelation 11:4] Those two I believe would be Philadelphia and Smyrna because of what they teach. (another study for another time) There are many more folks than two that make up the congregation of those two churches/candlesticks. But, what of the two olive trees? What does that mean?

Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?​

We are told in [Zechariah 4:12-14] that the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth, are the two olive branches. Those branches have many twigs.Those two anointed ones are two of the seven churches and the two olive trees....both wild and natural.

Psalms 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after He rose from the dead.Isaiah 43:10. Ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “and My Servant Whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.43:12 I have declared and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses,” saith the Lord, “that I am God.Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,​

In conclusion, the two witnesses, the two prophets, the two anointed ones are made up of two of the seven churches and two olive trees which are Gentile and of Israel. Together they take His message, the oil from Him, to the world.

Very deep intense study, brother I did not read it all but I know someone who has made videos on the book of revelation and the two witnesses was one of the hardest things to understand. Could you summarize in a single statement for me possibly?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

'thou enquirest not wisely concerning this' :)

I don't have all day to watch videos. You'll have to give me a short scenario or synopsis. I don't know specifically what you think is not wise.

 

[David in NJ]

I don't have all day to watch videos. You'll have to give me a short scenario or synopsis. I don't know specifically what you think is not wise.

AGREE - same here - Peace