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The Two Witnesses

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by samy, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Christina;61720)
    then what are we arguing about I agree they are two individuals ...two olive trees and the candlesticks are the churchesThe only thing I disagee about is that John was Elijah
    I disagree also... it makes feel like a reincarnation doctrine...which is easily disproved.Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
     
  2. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts New Member

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    Hi[/SIZE] No I am having trouble with this white text I cant read it very good so It is bigger for me.............if you could jump a text size that would be great LOL Well lets leave your disagreement with Jesus plain words for a thread just on that (smile) As I pointed out this is a repeat of the early rain of the first Martyrdom soCan you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
     
  3. SonicStudent

    SonicStudent New Member

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    (samy;44932)
    Rise and measure the temple of GodIn the New Testament, the temple and its various features are often used to illustrate truth about the church. Peter writes: "you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 2:5). Paul reminds the church at Corinth, "for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are" (1 Cor. 3:17). Members of the Philadelphian church are promised that they will be made "pillar(s) in the temple" (Rev. 3:12). In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he illustrates redemption by describing the wall of the temple that divided the inner Jewish court and outer gentile court. Christ’s redemptive work tore down "the dividing wall" and created one body of believers (Eph. 2:14). Paul then presents Christ, the apostles and prophets, and all the saints as the foundation and building materials fitted together "into a holy temple in the Lord...a dwelling of God in the Spirit" (Eph. 2:20-22).In Revelation 11, the temple, the outer court, and the holy city are similarly employed to portray saints. Some of these saints, later designated as "two witnesses," are first introduced as "the temple, altar and those who worship in it." They are measured and specifically distinguished from a larger community, those who do not worship in the altar and the "court which is outside." The entire church, the whole body of Christ, is presented by the figure of the temple, the outer court, and the holy city, but this chapter focuses on those who "worship in the altar." The subsequent discussion and description of two witnesses revolve around those "measured" members of the church whose worship is altar-worship.The saints brought to our attention as the two witnesses are ethnic believing Jews. In the temple, the inner and outer courts separated ethnic Jews and gentiles who worshipped the one true God. Likewise, the believing Jews in chapter 11 are distinguished from believing gentiles. Worship in the altarOur understanding of the central purpose of the two witnesses' ministry is established when they are described as "those who worship in [the altar]" (11:1). The entire book of Revelation is a call to worship in the altar, to recognize and value above all else the nature of God demonstrated in the Lamb. It is the Lamb who is central to God's rule, "in the center of the throne" (5:6, 7:17). It is the Lamb's wisdom ("eyes") and Lamb's power ("horns") that are the spirits sent "into all the earth" (5:5). It is from the altar that prayers ascend and judgment descends (8:3-5). It is in the blood of the Lamb that robes are made white (7:14). It is the sacrifice of the Lamb, the ultimate Priest and King, that makes both priests and kings (5:10). The power of the altar, "four horns of the golden altar," appropriately calls for the inevitable destruction inherent and residing in the Euphrates, the life-source of Babylon (9:13-15). It is from the altar that the angel comes to reap the harvest of the earth hostile to God (14:18). It is the altar that speaks during the judgment of the earth's rivers and springs saying, "Thus, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments" (16:7). The two witnesses, as those who worship in the altar, are witnesses to life defined by the altar.Thus, in chapter 11, our attention is drawn to the two witnesses. They are first characterized and distinguished by the scene where John is instructed to measure between the Jewish and gentile courts of the Temple. They are described specifically as those who worship in the altar. And then their identity is further developed as "the two olive trees and the two lampstands." Two olive treesIn verse 4, the two witnesses are identified as "the two olive trees...that stand before the Lord of the earth." Although the two olive trees are not found elsewhere in the book of Revelation, they are identified in Zechariah 4. In that context, an angel shows Zechariah two olive trees that supply oil to a single lampstand. As Zechariah presses the angel for an explanation, especially of the two olive branches, he learns that "these are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech. 4:14). Dr. Feinberg says of this scene,Practically all expositors interpret the last three verses thus: the two olive trees are the priestly and kingly offices of Israel; the two olive branches or twigs are their then incumbents, Joshua and Zerubbabel. Theirs is a position of responsibility in service before the Lord of all the earth. Ultimately these two servants of God in their official capacities adumbrate the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah who is both King and Priest. Thus the reference to the two olive trees tells us that the two witnesses of Revelation typify respectively the offices of priest and king. Two lampstandsIn their respective typical roles, the two witnesses are also "the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." Lampstands are a familiar symbol from the context of Revelation 1-3. In chapter 1, the seven churches are identified as seven lampstands (1:20). In chapters 2 and 3, the two lampstands, the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, are distinguished by the fact that they stand without criticism while the five others are warned by the Lord to repent from their fallen condition. But for Philadelphia and Smyrna to be "the two lampstands that stand" we would expect them also to be composed of Jews, with one church demonstrating the priestly office and the other church the kingly. Such appears to be the case. Of all the remarks made to the seven churches, only Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as Jews who had become followers of Christ. In both cases, the Lord speaks to the concern of believing Jews who had been put out of synagogues by unbelieving Jews, "those who say they are Jews" (2:9, 3:9). When we consider that the Lord addresses only these two churches regarding their experience with the "synagogue of Satan" (ethnic Jewish non-believers who falsely claimed to be God's true synagogue), it seems reasonable to conclude that the Lord regarded Philadelphia and Smyrna as the rightful claimants to the title "Jew," and saw their assemblies as the true synagogues. Gentile churches would not be inclined to a negative reaction toward ethnic non-believing Jews calling themselves Jews, or consequently in need of the Lord's assurance that He regarded such false claimants as a synagogue of Satan. Converted gentiles were called Christians, not Jews, and they gathered together as churches, not synagogues. Likewise, of all the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as those destined to demonstrate the offices of priest and king. Whereas Smyrna (2:8) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who was dead and has come to life" (first advent, the great High Priest who gave His own life), Philadelphia (3:7) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who has the key of David" (second advent, the King of Kings). Whereas Smyrna will suffer tribulation and death just as her High Priest Jesus, Philadelphia will be treated as a king by her enemies who "will come and bow down" at their feet. Philadelphia and Smyrna are therefore two lampstands (ethnic Jewish churches) that stand and exhibit characteristics of the priestly and kingly offices (the two olive trees). Measured for ministryThe act of "measuring" both of these churches apart from the five gentile churches ("court which is outside") relates to enabling these two churches to accomplish their special prophetic task, whether they find themselves in the heat of persecution (as in Smyrna) or in a position of relative safety (as in Philadelphia). In the same way, whether Old Testament prophets were persecuted, as Elijah, or roamed free, as Elisha, they were equally set apart and supernaturally endowed for the service of God.John is supplied "a measuring reed like a ruler's scepter" (11:1). This scepter is not a normal measuring device. The fact that a scepter is to be used for measuring is notice that the results are the function of a king's authority. And the kind of measuring that John is acting out is apparently similar to what King David did when he defeated Moab (2 Sam. 8:2). The measuring in that context meant the difference between life and death for a conquered people.This picture of ethnic Jewish believers being distinguished from and treated differently than gentile believers with whom they share a common identity in the body of Christ, is consistent also with the pictures in Revelation 7, 12, 14, and 15. In chapter 7, the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel share a common identity as servants of God with the great multitude of all the nations, but are distinguished by nationality and the act of sealing. In chapter 12, "the woman" (12:1) and "the rest of her offspring" (12:17) share identity as those who "keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" but are distinguished in the exclusively Jewish-Christian description of the woman and the special treatment ("place prepared by God," "nourished," "two wings of the great eagle") given her by God during the career of the dragon. In chapter 14, the 144,000 are with the Lord on Mount Zion as "firstfruits" of the Lord's harvest, singing a song no others could learn, while an undesignated group "who had come off victorious from the beast" (15:2) sing the Lord's praises with the phrase, "all the nations will come and worship before You." This last group only comes into our view after the 144,000 are with the Lord, and the subsequent scene of harvest is described (14:14-16). This singling out of a believing Jewish remnant for a powerful prophetic ministry during the time of the great tribulation was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28 ff.) and was repeated by the assembled saints on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:17). Joel said that the Spirit was to be poured out upon the sons of Israel without distinction between sex, age, or class ("all flesh"), resulting in a ministry of prophecy and the display of God's power. Two witnesses not two peopleSome commentators have suggested Old Testament prophets such as Moses and Elijah as historically typical of the two witnesses or are coming again to be the two witnesses. Indeed, some such Old Testament individuals or scenarios may be typical of the Revelation scene. A likely pair whose case strongly resembles the present scene are Moses and Aaron. They filled the offices of priest and king in Israel in opposition to the wicked Pharaoh and his magician priests. In that case, we also see God's supernatural power granted in opposition to the diabolical power of Pharaoh's priests.However likely it is that Moses and Aaron or others are typical of the two witnesses' ministry, the language of chapter 11 does not support the suggestion that the two witnesses are two individual persons. The text states that they are "the two lampstands that stand," a direct reference to the churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna. The singular nouns "mouth" (11:5) and "body" (11:8-9) properly express functions of a large body of people but would be linguistic errors in reference to two persons. The beast is said to "make war with them and kill them" at the conclusion of their testimony. Such a description does not fit the simple execution of two persons. Next, we are notified that their dead "body" (singular, not plural) lies (verb supplied by translators) “in the street of the great city.” Because the phrase "the great city" is discovered to be a reference to the "woman" (great harlot) of chapters 17 and 18, who personifies the multiplied Babylon-like cities of the world, a great number of dead are envisioned lying in the streets of the world's cities. It was here in the Babylon-like world-city that Jesus was crucified. In addition, the wide number of those from "the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations" who look at their dead bodies speaks of a large number of dead bodies distributed widely. Nothing in the text of chapter 11 leads us to hypothesize two individual persons; but everything about the text and the further context of Revelation leads us to the two churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. Two witnesses and the trumpetsAs the witnesses fulfill their prophetic calling in the context of the beast's opposition, calamity results on a world-wide scale. A comparison between the description of the two witnesses' miraculous power and the scene from chapter 8 at the beginning of the trumpets brings this picture into sharp focus. In chapter 8, the ascent of the saints' prayers is seen to precede the hail and fire (trumpet one), a great star burning with fire (trumpet two), and a great star burning like a torch (trumpet three), all of which fall consecutively on earth with various consequences, followed by a darkness (trumpet four) and a plague (trumpet five). By comparison, in chapter 11 it is said of the two witnesses that,...if any one desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies...these have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. (11:5-6)If "fire proceeds out of their mouth" means that they speak and fire results as Moses spoke and a fiery hail resulted, or Elijah spoke and fire came down from heaven, then the scenes under the trumpets and the ministry of the two witnesses appears to be one and the same. The two witnesses turn water to blood and smite the earth with plagues and call fire down from heaven just as we see under the trumpets. And if to this we add the scene that Joel foresaw, then we conclude that the supernatural calamity under the trumpets is directed from heaven in response to the words of the two witnesses against the ungodly. This is not unlike the case of Israel being delivered from Egypt.Thus we conclude that the two witnesses are the two churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna, demonstrating the priestly and kingly function, composed exclusively of the tribes of Israel. They are set apart from the five gentile churches who will by this time have become compromised by the world to the point where they no longer present themselves as an effective force for the Lord. They will be supported spiritually by faithful gentiles who, as minority members of the five churches, continue to obey and glorify the Lord (cf: Rev. 2-3). The identity of the two witnesses, and the condition of the five gentile churches, provides a chilling reminder of Paul's words to the Romans,You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you (Rom. 11:19-21).
    Hi Samy, with the greatest of respect to your views here, can I disagree with a symbolic view. I feel that the language used here refering to the 'two witnesses' is literal when compared with text and imagery that is clearly sybolic.To show what I mean I just want to put something by everyone. I’m only putting this up because while I was reading, it came to me and felt right. So I’m not putting this up as some radical teaching that I’m saying is correct. Only that it seems to fit, others seem to have had the same observation and if nothing else is interesting and worth pondering.I know that many already believe (not all) that the identity of the two witnesses could be Elijah & Moses. So, not being one to accept stuff without there being good biblical reason, I decided to see if that might be right.I know that the main reason for this belief is because the two witnesses bring about miracles similar to Elijah & Moses in the Old Testament. I.e. bringing fire down from heaven and similar plagues etc.But there could be more reason than this!Why does the bible call these two men, ‘the two witnesses’?I think we should look into this, as it is obviously an important detail of their description.I was pondering this and thought, where else have Elijah and Moses been mentioned together? Also, where else has there been two men sent from God been together?The first place I thought of was on the mount of transfiguration. Moses and Elijah appear on the mount to talk with Jesus:Luke 9: 28-31 28Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.The thing that I questioned here was, why did Moses and Elijah appear here to talk with Jesus about the crucifixion in Jerusalem? I don’t personally feel it was simply for a chat about it! But rather something more was going on.The conversation was concerning Jesus’ mission, His death and resurrection that Jesus was about to accomplish, His purpose for being on earth this time round. The bible says that they appeared as glorified men!The next time we see two glorified men is at the actual tomb of Jesus after his death and at the point of resurrection:Luke 24:1-8 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.'Once again the bible indicates that two men were present at Jesus’ point of ascension;Acts 1: 9-12 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven."The next time we see two men together is in Revelation, the two witnesses:Rev 11: 3-6 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”4These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands standing before the God of the earth. 5And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.There description here is ‘the two olive trees and two lamp stands’. Olive trees indicates that they are Jewish. Most Jews are expecting Elijah to return before the Messiah comes, so already many accept that Elijah could well be one of these witnesses, and to back that up this witness does very similar things that Elijah did on his first visit. Also many are aware that Elijah never died, but that God took him up, so expect a literal bodily return. Many believe already that the 2nd witness could be Moses, Another study puts it this way; (Many of the miracles that will be done, during the Tribulation, by the two witnesses were also done by Moses previously. The following are some of them. It is written, regarding the Tribulation, AND THE FIRST (angel) WENT, AND POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE EARTH; AND THERE FELL A NOISOME AND GRIEVOUS SORE UPON THE MEN WHICH HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST-Rev 16:2. Moses did something similar in the Old Testament-ref Ex 9:10. It is written, regarding the two witnesses during the Tribulation, THESE HAVE POWER...OVER WATERS TO TURN THEM TO BLOOD-Rev 11:6. Moses did this in the Old Testament-ref Ex 7:20)However, many struggle because Elijah never died, but Moses did. Again, this is explained in another study observation:(Some may say that Moses was never raptured as Elijah was. This is true; nevertheless, consider the following. When Moses died, the Bible tells us that his natural force was not abated. It is written, AND MOSES WAS AN HUNDRED AND TWENTY YEARS OLD WHEN HE DIED: HIS EYE WAS NOT DIM, NOR HIS NATURAL FORCE ABATED (or gone)-Deut 34:7. Since we would expect Moses to have his natural body when he returns during the Tribulation, we then should be able to understand why Satan wanted to find out where his body was. Apparently, he wanted to destroy it. Nevertheless, no man knows where it is. This should have prevented Moses from returning. As it is written, YET MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, WHEN CONTENDING WITH THE DEVIL…ABOUT THE BODY OF MOSES-Jude 9; SO MOSES...DIED...AND HE (the Lord) BURIED HIM...BUT NO MAN KNOWETH OF HIS SEPULCHER UNTO THIS DAY-Deut 34:5,6. It seems God is protecting the body of Moses so that, when the day comes, Moses will appear. God demonstrated how He can keep things from decaying or growing old; as it is written, THY RAIMENT WAXED NOT OLD UPON THEE, NEITHER DID THY FOOT SWELL, THESE FORTY YEARS-Deut 8:4. Moses wanted to enter the Promised Land, but God told him no. Yet it appears God will yet allow him to enter during the Tribulation. It is written, AND I BESOUGHT THE LORD AT THAT TIME, SAYING, O LORD GOD...I PRAY THEE, LET ME GO OVER, AND SEE THE GOOD LAND THAT IS BEYOND JORDAN...BUT THE LORD WAS WROTH WITH ME FOR YOUR SAKES, AND WOULD NOT HEAR ME: AND THE LORD SAID UNTO ME, LET IT SUFFICE THEE; SPEAK NO MORE UNTO ME OF THIS MATTER-Deut 3:23,25,26)Anyway, my point is this! Maybe Moses and Elijah are called the ‘two witnesses’ here because of one simple reason;They were the only two people on earth ‘Ever’ to ‘literally’ witness the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead! The apostles and many others witnessed the risen Jesus, but never witnessed Jesus literally rise from the dead! Many believed the apostles witness of the risen Christ, but as a whole the Jewish nation rejected the apostles witness.Why appear to Jesus to discuss what was about to happen in Jerusalem? They were there for a reason and I’m sure not just for a chat about it.Why two glorified men in the tomb, who had obviously been there during the resurrection?Why two glorified men at the ascension, again, possibly as a witness to the event for the end time Jews.Now it seems too much of a coincidence to me that Moses & Elijah would appear to Jesus to discuss the events of the crucifixion & resurrection and it not be them ‘at the resurrection site’.The Jews tried to counter the claims that the apostles would say regarding Messiah’s resurrection when they said; The Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”But if this is right, no man will have excuse, as here are the only two who ever literally witnessed Jesus’ literal resurrection and also witnessed His ascension too!What an amazing thing this could be! It says in Revelation that everyone hated these two. Their message was clearly not well received. What if that message was a testimony to what they had literally seen? The resurrection from the dead and the ascension of Christ!Maybe this is what the Jewish nation needs to be able to come to faith as a nation. Maybe it’s God’s time to ‘make straight the paths’ again, before the day of the Lord. Well this excites me, and my heart and spirit says yes. However, please understand, I’m a simple man who looks for answers in truth. If this is right then wonderful, if not ok.
     
  4. kkboldt

    kkboldt New Member

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    Hello all,I've read through the posts here. All of the posts bring up great points and demonstrate that many symbols, people, events, could represent the "Two Witnesses".Here is another take that is more simplified, that I find very interesting. Found here: http://www.historicist.com/articles2/twowitnesses2.htmThe Two WitnessesAnd I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. Revelation 11:3-6 (NIV)There are two witnesses, and only two. The whole Bible is divided into two great divisions, which are called the Old and New Testaments. There are then two Testaments. The term testament is a word that means to bear witness. It is derived from a Latin word, testor, which means, I testify. The two testaments then mean simply two witnesses.There are two editions, the tablets of stone and the current Bible These two are witnesses. Their business is to testify to certain facts or truths. These two witnesses of the Bible each testify of the Lord. Jesus said to the Jews concerning the Old Testament Scriptures, "They testify about me." John 5:46. The Apostle John says concerning his life of the Savior, "At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him." John 12:16One of these witnesses testifies of the Lord in type and prophecy; the other testifies by its history of facts. The Lord says they are "my" witnesses. They testify for the Lord. Revelation 11:3-6The Lord gives these witnesses power. "I will give power," etc. Revelation 11:3-6These witnesses are likened to two olive trees and to two candlesticks. Then I asked the angel, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?" So he said, "These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth." Zechariah 4:11 and 14 (NIV)The symbol of the candlestick, or rather of the lamp, is to give light. The olive tree furnished the oil needed for the lamp. The idea evidently is that the two witnesses are, like the lamp fed with olive oil, sources of light. This fact is also true of the Bible. Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path. Psalms 119:105 (NIV)----------------NOTE: The 10 Virgins or Bridesmaids needed to fill their lamps with oil in Jesus's parable.------------------It is stated that they shall have power to destroy their enemies. The Word of God can save and it can destroy. It can justify and it can condemn. It takes two witnesses to condemn a person. When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.Exodus 31:18 (NIV)On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. Deuteronomy 17:6 (NIV)The Two Books of the Word of God. The two witnesses in Sackcloth for twelve hundred and sixty years. Slain in 1793. For over a thousand years it was not allowed for anyone that was not a priest to read the Scriptures. It was taught that only priests were able to interpret them. Even the priests were compelled to preach the Word just as the Church directed. When some of them were honest enough to preach what they found in the Bible, they were put to death. A whole army of martyrs suffered because they preached faithfully what they read. For many centuries it was a crime for a person to have a Bible in their possession. Wherever the Bible was found it was burned, and thousands of saints were sent to the stake for no other crime than having in their possession a copy of the Word of God. In addition to all this the Bible was locked up in languages that the people did not understand. When it was read in the churches the Latin version was used, and it was the fixed policy of the Papacy that it should not be translated into the vernacular. Certainly, during this long period, when the Scriptures were locked up in dead languages, when it was a crime to own a Bible, and when the Bible in the vernacular was burnt whenever found, the two witnesses prophesied in sackcloth.I you scratching your head... You ask 1793 what on earth is he talking about...In the late 1700's the most determined attack ever known was made upon the Bible. Voltaire and Rousseau led in France; Frederick the Great in Germany; Tom Paine, Hume, Gibbon, and Bolingbroke in England; Thomas Jefferson and Paine in America.In France the nation rose in a crusade against all religion. By national law they abolished not only the Bible but God. They decreed that France would worship no gods but Reason and Liberty. Atheism became the law of the State. Look into the history books and see how long the French revolution (reign of terror) lasted... The reign of terror where all the royal family was taken to the guillotine and thousands of others as well.For the resurrection I say look around you. Observe the spread of the Gospel to all the people of the earth in the vernacular or common languages."----------------Now, there's another possibility: The Great Pyramid is known as the "Stone Witness", or the "Testimony in Stone" as indicated in Isaiah, 19:19-21.So, the Two Witnesses could also be the Bible and the Great Pyramid, figuratively.Also, who did God say who his witnesses are?Isaiah 43:10 (KJV) "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."Matthew 18:16 (KJV) "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."2 Corinthians 13:1 (KJV) "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.1 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV) "Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:Therefore, Judah and Israel may be the "Two Witnesses". Why are they clothed in "sackcloth"? Why does one clothe themselves in sackcloth? Because they are in mourning and lamentation? Why are the Witnesses in lamentation? Could it be because they are being persecuted while they are witnessing to the world about Jesus and the coming Kingdom?The prophet Daniel wrote:Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV) "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."For 1290 years after the death of Christ, the Christians were martyred and persecuted for their testimony of Christ. Then what happened?So if we count the year our Lord was crucified as 33 AD, then ad 1335 days, we come to what?The beginning of the Great Reformation! "Suddenly, the Two Witnesses stood on their feet!" Just another interesting thought.-------------So what do we have so far that could Represent the Two Witnesses?1.) The Old and New Testaments2.) The Law and the Prophets represented by Moses and Elijah at Jesus's transfiguration. Moses and Elijah both had the power to make "shut up the heavens that it didn't rain and over the plagues. And both ascended into heaven.3.) Israel and Judah4.) The Bible and the Great Pyramid5.) The Two Tablets of StoneSo it could be ALL of these.Kim
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Great thoughts KK. I have heard them before and considered them, they fit in many ways. However the one thing Ive learned it that the best way to get the right answers is to stay within the Word and not let our minds wander into the world of could be. might beIf we take everything we are told in scripture about the two witnesses. And put them all together. Leaving out none ... We can only come to one conclusion ..that they are men. Its only when we take some of the facts we know and ignore others that we can make other things fit.For example : In the above scenario in your post The O.T and N.T are most certainly are two wittiness's this is true... But then we are told how the bodies of the two wittiness's lie dead in the streets for 3 days while the whole world parties and celebrates. Then they raised into heaven(the air) in the sight of all ... So then to make Books fit this fact we have to start speculating as to spiritual or physical and that takes us further away from Gods Word and more into men's ideas,We that have studied for some time (and I know that to be true of you ) know that God often teaches in En-samples and types . If we look to our type teaching in this case we have the Story of Elijah (Kings) Who had the power to shut up the rain and bring down fire, and rose in a whirlwind. these are all the same powers said to be possessed by the two wittiness's 2Ki 1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I [be] a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. 1Ki 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, [who was] of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, [As] the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word. 1Ki 18:1 And it came to pass [after] many days, that the word of the LORD came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab; and I will send rain upon the earth. Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD
     
  6. lloydnook

    lloydnook New Member

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    (samy;44932)
    Rise and measure the temple of GodIn the New Testament, the temple and its various features are often used to illustrate truth about the church. Peter writes: "you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 2:5). Paul reminds the church at Corinth, "for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are" (1 Cor. 3:17). Members of the Philadelphian church are promised that they will be made "pillar(s) in the temple" (Rev. 3:12). In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he illustrates redemption by describing the wall of the temple that divided the inner Jewish court and outer gentile court. Christ’s redemptive work tore down "the dividing wall" and created one body of believers (Eph. 2:14). Paul then presents Christ, the apostles and prophets, and all the saints as the foundation and building materials fitted together "into a holy temple in the Lord...a dwelling of God in the Spirit" (Eph. 2:20-22).In Revelation 11, the temple, the outer court, and the holy city are similarly employed to portray saints. Some of these saints, later designated as "two witnesses," are first introduced as "the temple, altar and those who worship in it." They are measured and specifically distinguished from a larger community, those who do not worship in the altar and the "court which is outside." The entire church, the whole body of Christ, is presented by the figure of the temple, the outer court, and the holy city, but this chapter focuses on those who "worship in the altar." The subsequent discussion and description of two witnesses revolve around those "measured" members of the church whose worship is altar-worship.The saints brought to our attention as the two witnesses are ethnic believing Jews. In the temple, the inner and outer courts separated ethnic Jews and gentiles who worshipped the one true God. Likewise, the believing Jews in chapter 11 are distinguished from believing gentiles. Worship in the altarOur understanding of the central purpose of the two witnesses' ministry is established when they are described as "those who worship in [the altar]" (11:1). The entire book of Revelation is a call to worship in the altar, to recognize and value above all else the nature of God demonstrated in the Lamb. It is the Lamb who is central to God's rule, "in the center of the throne" (5:6, 7:17). It is the Lamb's wisdom ("eyes") and Lamb's power ("horns") that are the spirits sent "into all the earth" (5:5). It is from the altar that prayers ascend and judgment descends (8:3-5). It is in the blood of the Lamb that robes are made white (7:14). It is the sacrifice of the Lamb, the ultimate Priest and King, that makes both priests and kings (5:10). The power of the altar, "four horns of the golden altar," appropriately calls for the inevitable destruction inherent and residing in the Euphrates, the life-source of Babylon (9:13-15). It is from the altar that the angel comes to reap the harvest of the earth hostile to God (14:18). It is the altar that speaks during the judgment of the earth's rivers and springs saying, "Thus, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments" (16:7). The two witnesses, as those who worship in the altar, are witnesses to life defined by the altar.Thus, in chapter 11, our attention is drawn to the two witnesses. They are first characterized and distinguished by the scene where John is instructed to measure between the Jewish and gentile courts of the Temple. They are described specifically as those who worship in the altar. And then their identity is further developed as "the two olive trees and the two lampstands." Two olive treesIn verse 4, the two witnesses are identified as "the two olive trees...that stand before the Lord of the earth." Although the two olive trees are not found elsewhere in the book of Revelation, they are identified in Zechariah 4. In that context, an angel shows Zechariah two olive trees that supply oil to a single lampstand. As Zechariah presses the angel for an explanation, especially of the two olive branches, he learns that "these are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech. 4:14). Dr. Feinberg says of this scene,Practically all expositors interpret the last three verses thus: the two olive trees are the priestly and kingly offices of Israel; the two olive branches or twigs are their then incumbents, Joshua and Zerubbabel. Theirs is a position of responsibility in service before the Lord of all the earth. Ultimately these two servants of God in their official capacities adumbrate the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah who is both King and Priest. Thus the reference to the two olive trees tells us that the two witnesses of Revelation typify respectively the offices of priest and king. Two lampstandsIn their respective typical roles, the two witnesses are also "the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." Lampstands are a familiar symbol from the context of Revelation 1-3. In chapter 1, the seven churches are identified as seven lampstands (1:20). In chapters 2 and 3, the two lampstands, the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, are distinguished by the fact that they stand without criticism while the five others are warned by the Lord to repent from their fallen condition. But for Philadelphia and Smyrna to be "the two lampstands that stand" we would expect them also to be composed of Jews, with one church demonstrating the priestly office and the other church the kingly. Such appears to be the case. Of all the remarks made to the seven churches, only Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as Jews who had become followers of Christ. In both cases, the Lord speaks to the concern of believing Jews who had been put out of synagogues by unbelieving Jews, "those who say they are Jews" (2:9, 3:9). When we consider that the Lord addresses only these two churches regarding their experience with the "synagogue of Satan" (ethnic Jewish non-believers who falsely claimed to be God's true synagogue), it seems reasonable to conclude that the Lord regarded Philadelphia and Smyrna as the rightful claimants to the title "Jew," and saw their assemblies as the true synagogues. Gentile churches would not be inclined to a negative reaction toward ethnic non-believing Jews calling themselves Jews, or consequently in need of the Lord's assurance that He regarded such false claimants as a synagogue of Satan. Converted gentiles were called Christians, not Jews, and they gathered together as churches, not synagogues. Likewise, of all the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as those destined to demonstrate the offices of priest and king. Whereas Smyrna (2:8) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who was dead and has come to life" (first advent, the great High Priest who gave His own life), Philadelphia (3:7) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who has the key of David" (second advent, the King of Kings). Whereas Smyrna will suffer tribulation and death just as her High Priest Jesus, Philadelphia will be treated as a king by her enemies who "will come and bow down" at their feet. Philadelphia and Smyrna are therefore two lampstands (ethnic Jewish churches) that stand and exhibit characteristics of the priestly and kingly offices (the two olive trees). Measured for ministryThe act of "measuring" both of these churches apart from the five gentile churches ("court which is outside") relates to enabling these two churches to accomplish their special prophetic task, whether they find themselves in the heat of persecution (as in Smyrna) or in a position of relative safety (as in Philadelphia). In the same way, whether Old Testament prophets were persecuted, as Elijah, or roamed free, as Elisha, they were equally set apart and supernaturally endowed for the service of God.John is supplied "a measuring reed like a ruler's scepter" (11:1). This scepter is not a normal measuring device. The fact that a scepter is to be used for measuring is notice that the results are the function of a king's authority. And the kind of measuring that John is acting out is apparently similar to what King David did when he defeated Moab (2 Sam. 8:2). The measuring in that context meant the difference between life and death for a conquered people.This picture of ethnic Jewish believers being distinguished from and treated differently than gentile believers with whom they share a common identity in the body of Christ, is consistent also with the pictures in Revelation 7, 12, 14, and 15. In chapter 7, the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel share a common identity as servants of God with the great multitude of all the nations, but are distinguished by nationality and the act of sealing. In chapter 12, "the woman" (12:1) and "the rest of her offspring" (12:17) share identity as those who "keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" but are distinguished in the exclusively Jewish-Christian description of the woman and the special treatment ("place prepared by God," "nourished," "two wings of the great eagle") given her by God during the career of the dragon. In chapter 14, the 144,000 are with the Lord on Mount Zion as "firstfruits" of the Lord's harvest, singing a song no others could learn, while an undesignated group "who had come off victorious from the beast" (15:2) sing the Lord's praises with the phrase, "all the nations will come and worship before You." This last group only comes into our view after the 144,000 are with the Lord, and the subsequent scene of harvest is described (14:14-16). This singling out of a believing Jewish remnant for a powerful prophetic ministry during the time of the great tribulation was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28 ff.) and was repeated by the assembled saints on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:17). Joel said that the Spirit was to be poured out upon the sons of Israel without distinction between sex, age, or class ("all flesh"), resulting in a ministry of prophecy and the display of God's power. Two witnesses not two peopleSome commentators have suggested Old Testament prophets such as Moses and Elijah as historically typical of the two witnesses or are coming again to be the two witnesses. Indeed, some such Old Testament individuals or scenarios may be typical of the Revelation scene. A likely pair whose case strongly resembles the present scene are Moses and Aaron. They filled the offices of priest and king in Israel in opposition to the wicked Pharaoh and his magician priests. In that case, we also see God's supernatural power granted in opposition to the diabolical power of Pharaoh's priests.However likely it is that Moses and Aaron or others are typical of the two witnesses' ministry, the language of chapter 11 does not support the suggestion that the two witnesses are two individual persons. The text states that they are "the two lampstands that stand," a direct reference to the churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna. The singular nouns "mouth" (11:5) and "body" (11:8-9) properly express functions of a large body of people but would be linguistic errors in reference to two persons. The beast is said to "make war with them and kill them" at the conclusion of their testimony. Such a description does not fit the simple execution of two persons. Next, we are notified that their dead "body" (singular, not plural) lies (verb supplied by translators) “in the street of the great city.” Because the phrase "the great city" is discovered to be a reference to the "woman" (great harlot) of chapters 17 and 18, who personifies the multiplied Babylon-like cities of the world, a great number of dead are envisioned lying in the streets of the world's cities. It was here in the Babylon-like world-city that Jesus was crucified. In addition, the wide number of those from "the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations" who look at their dead bodies speaks of a large number of dead bodies distributed widely. Nothing in the text of chapter 11 leads us to hypothesize two individual persons; but everything about the text and the further context of Revelation leads us to the two churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. Two witnesses and the trumpetsAs the witnesses fulfill their prophetic calling in the context of the beast's opposition, calamity results on a world-wide scale. A comparison between the description of the two witnesses' miraculous power and the scene from chapter 8 at the beginning of the trumpets brings this picture into sharp focus. In chapter 8, the ascent of the saints' prayers is seen to precede the hail and fire (trumpet one), a great star burning with fire (trumpet two), and a great star burning like a torch (trumpet three), all of which fall consecutively on earth with various consequences, followed by a darkness (trumpet four) and a plague (trumpet five). By comparison, in chapter 11 it is said of the two witnesses that,...if any one desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies...these have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. (11:5-6)If "fire proceeds out of their mouth" means that they speak and fire results as Moses spoke and a fiery hail resulted, or Elijah spoke and fire came down from heaven, then the scenes under the trumpets and the ministry of the two witnesses appears to be one and the same. The two witnesses turn water to blood and smite the earth with plagues and call fire down from heaven just as we see under the trumpets. And if to this we add the scene that Joel foresaw, then we conclude that the supernatural calamity under the trumpets is directed from heaven in response to the words of the two witnesses against the ungodly. This is not unlike the case of Israel being delivered from Egypt.Thus we conclude that the two witnesses are the two churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna, demonstrating the priestly and kingly function, composed exclusively of the tribes of Israel. They are set apart from the five gentile churches who will by this time have become compromised by the world to the point where they no longer present themselves as an effective force for the Lord. They will be supported spiritually by faithful gentiles who, as minority members of the five churches, continue to obey and glorify the Lord (cf: Rev. 2-3). The identity of the two witnesses, and the condition of the five gentile churches, provides a chilling reminder of Paul's words to the Romans,You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you (Rom. 11:19-21).
    Lloydnook:V.3 ©And I will add power to (a)My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two*hundred and threescore days, (b)clothed in sackcloth."(a) *"My two witnesses;" (Zech. 4.) Who these two blessed witnesses are is not known. Some say Moses*and Elijah, which may have veracity, as it is certain that Elijah will return to earth prior to the Day of*the Lord," (Jehovah,) (Malachi 4:5.) It is noteworthy that in the same breath as that promise (Mal. 4:4,)*Israel is exhorted to remember "the Law of Moses my servant;" so the possibility is distinct. In Matt. 11 Jesus discusses John the Baptist, His own Evidential Miracles prophesied in Isa. 35:5-6, 61:1; and in V.10, the promise of Jehovah to send His Messenger (Mal 3:1.) In V. 14 Jesus shows that had the Jewish Hierarchy accepted Him as Messiah, John would have been Elijah! In Matt. 11:13, states "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John;" meaning that John and his Baptism was a terminal point and a change!Jesus showed that He was that change, but it had to be accepted by the Nation of Israel! The offer of the Jer. 31:31 New Covenant was not withdrawn until Acts 28. The two witnesses will represent the same offer, together with the Kingdom, so the possibility is that Moses is one to represent the Law and John the Baptist the second representing the offer of Jer. 31:31. The fact of their rejection of Jesus as Messiah, may be the reason as we know from Ezekiel, that during the Millennial reign the Jews will perform the rituals of the Law,*other than the symbols of Messiah (incense alter etc.) Scripture says they "are the two*anointed ones, that stand by the Lord (Adon) of all the earth," (Zech. 4:14.) Their purpose is to*faithfully pronounce "the Kingdom," as did our Lord during His earthly ministry (Rev. 1:5.) They will also witness to the fact that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah the Jews rejected! They will*have special powers of survival and miracle, which will anger and unsettle the followers of Antichrist*(Satan's people) on earth, especially as they cannot be killed until their mission is complete;* their*witness time period is exactly the same as the nations control of Jerusalem!([​IMG] Sackcloth; camel hair cloth, worn by mourners, and a symbol of sorrow and mourning!© Here again the Almighty Jehovah Zebaoth, shows measured empowerment for the Purpose! In this case, so that the "witnesses" may without any hindrance continue to give the Message of Jehovah God to the Jews and the world. It has to be remembered that the "Message" will include the fact of Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah! The Jews will not want to hear this!" So, they with the help of non - Jews will try to kill the witness! They will not be able to do it for 3½ Jewish years, due to God's Protection and Empowering; this fact will make all the world's anti-God people very angry; but also afraid! *V.4******************(a)These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the (b)God of the earth.(a) Zech. 4:1-14. In this reference the 'olive trees" are closely related to Zerubbabal, who is the key person in the building of the second temple, (Ezk. 5:2.)He was a descendent of King David, and in Zech. 4, the olive trees are shown to stand next to "Zerubbabal," and that the next temple of Jehovah will be completed by him! This is certain to be the Ezk. 40 Temple, as the olive trees are also the two "Witnesses" of V3 and the time is close to the end of the "Great Tribulation." Zerubbabal will be "Empowered" in the rebuilding of the next Temple of Jehovah Zebaoth (as opposed to the Tribulation temple) by the Spirit of Jehovah (Zech. 4:6!) Jesus when discussing Elijah, spoke of John the Baptist, as the manifestation of Elijah, V.12 having "come already!" He had already stated that "the Law and the prophets were to John the Baptist" (Matt. 11:13, Luke 16:16,) and that he was the start of a change FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, in the context of Jeremiah 31:31. The reference in Luke 16:16, showed that "the Kingdom" was that change.The remarkable events of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit empowered the JEWS for the "Kingdom message," was the start of the fulfilling of Joel 2:28-31, and that empowering did not cease until Israel rejected finally Paul's Jesus Christ Message at Acts 28! The empowering by the Holy Spirit to the Jews then ceased; and does not show a continuation until Revelation, when they need help again against Satan and men. In Matt. 17:20, 21:21 and Mark 11:23, Jesus shows what a Jew with faith and empowerment from God can do, move mountains *(Matt. 17:20!) In Matt. 8:10, Jesus marvelled at the faith of the Gentile Centurion, comparing it with that of the lack in Israel! This is the empowerment that is alluded to in Zech. 4:7, when Zerubbabel shall be so empowered, in his building of the Millennial Temple for Jehovah Zebaoth! It is depicted in Zerubbabal's case, in Zech. 4, showing the "olive trees" on each side of him feeding empowerment "oil," for his purpose!The remarkable fact is that the "two witnesses" are also the "golden pipes," through which "oil" the Spirit is channelled. There is clearly an interrelationship between the "seven churches" (Ekklesia,) the "Witnesses," and all the spiritual needs of the travailing people of God, the Jews, and the supply of "oil" (Spirit) that they need to "overcome" the whiles and assaults of Satan!
     
  7. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    Lloydnook:Welcome to the ChristianityBoard.I have been reading your posts and they are interesting, I do take issue with some of what you have shared. I just wondered where you are getting your material. Is your primary web site: http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/ or do you have another one.
     
  8. lloydnook

    lloydnook New Member

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    (tomwebster;64530)
    Lloydnook:Welcome to the ChristianityBoard.I have been reading your posts and they are interesting, I do take issue with some of what you have shared. I just wondered where you are getting your material. Is your primary web site: http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/ or do you have another one.
    Lloyd:Hello Tom, and thanks your welcome.The "material" is entirely from study of Scripture, before and particularly since committing to Christ my Lord!The first Bible was KJV, followed by NIV, Derby, NIV, RSV, with sprinklings of Moffatt, Lightfoot, Kiddle,etc.The current is KJV (Companion), and Interlinear.Our progression as Christians (my wife and I), has been (we now know), led by the Holy Spirit (the Comforter), and the experiences we've had in life, and the Groups we've attended, and the differing emphases in them.No, the website you quoted is our only one, and was completed about 6 years ago. It was the culmination in our case of much experience, study, prayer, and desire to know the Truth of Almighty God 1st hand, which in our case, could only mean from His leading, His Word, and prayerful endeavour. The Subject Index is ongoing, and is added to from time to time.The main body of Revsmessage, is intended to be a "study aid", and thought provoker; as is made clear in the Introduction. We have strong views, but are open to discussion to a degree.Regards Lloydnook.
     
  9. smitharbie

    smitharbie New Member

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    Here's another perspective.The two witnesses refer to the two witnesses of the Lord, and these two witnesses stand before the Lord of all the earth. Zech 4:14 and Rev 11:4. Most interesting is the statement from Jesus in John 5:33-34 that he does not receive the testimony of men. He further explains that his two other witnesses are the Father and the Holy Spirit. In addition, Jesus stated in John 5:31 that if he only witnessed of himself, then his witness was not considered to be true. This is because it takes two or three witnesses to establish anything, and the same goes for the testimony of God. God's word IS true, of course, but only if it is confirmed by the additional witnesses, of which Jesus says must come from the Father and the Holy Spirit in order to prove that Jesus is truly the manifestation of the word of God on the earth. Because God is a triune God, it is God who gives the three testimonies of himself. The Father speaks the word, the Son manifests the word, and the Holy Spirit causes the spoken word of God to bear fruit in the one form or another, including miracles, healings, signs, and wonders.This is what is referred to in Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11. The two olive trees are the two witnesses which stand before the lord of all the earth. One lampstand with seven (number of perfection) lamps in Zechariah would represent the Word of God, as given in the Old Testament. Of course, there are two lampstands in Revelation 11, which indicates that now there is both the new and old testaments. It is the olive trees which supply the oil to the lamps. Lamps do not shine unless they have fuel. The word of God must be revealed, and therefore it is the further addition of the oil from the two olive trees which do this. Jesus Christ is the one witness of the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the other witness of the Father. These three witnesses sum up the completeness of God's word, and with the three testimonies, cannot be denied as truth. The word of God is confirmed by the additional witnesses. It is the same for us who have been made in the image of God. We are also three part people with the Father (or authority part) the Son (the outward physical manifestation part), and the spirit (which brings the fruit to the words and actions with have been spoken and demonstrated. The two witnesses were typed and shadowed in the temple pattern. God dwelled in the Most Holy, and the way into the Most Holy required a person to cross the porch. The porch was flanked by two pillars, called Jachin and Boaz. These two pillars didn't hold anything up, and were huge. And today, we Christians enter into the presence of God, but only by coming within these two pillars. Jesus Christ must be our Savior, and the Holy Spirit must indwell us, and will if we are truly born again in Spirit.In this current age, the body of Christ is still in the world, and it is still the word of God manifested. Christians are the body of Christ. Christians have put on Christ. Christians have been given the Holy Spirit to dwell in them, and the power of God is proven by the Holy Spirit within us. So these two witnesses are active in the body of Christ. In the last days, the world WILL become angry because of the tremendous signs and wonders that we will be doing. And because we will also be pointing fervently at the sky as we see the evidences of Christ's soon coming, the rest of the world will get frustrated and nasty, culminating in a world wide decree to do away with any religious concepts except God. They will decree that anyone can have God, in whatever form they wish, but that the power of God cannot be claimed to be coming from Jesus Christ or from the internal working of the Holy Spirit. This will be a death TYPE, and it will affect every true Christian who is manifesting Christ and being led of the Holy Spirit. It is necessary to take Jesus' statement that he does not accept the testimony of men, and explains that it must be the Father and the Holy Spirit that completes the testimony as to whether he is of God or is an imposter. Of course, we know Jesus is true, but Jesus confirms that the truth can only be established (just as his rules in the Old Testament) by two or three witnesses.John the Baptist is not an acceptable witness of Christ. It's a good witness, but insufficient to prove the deity of Jesus. In the same way, we are also three part persons, and this is helpful to us. Because in the end time, we will be judged, but we will give three witnesses for ourselves. The testimony of our lips, the actions of our body, and the fruit that comes from it. These three witnesses will either establish us as Christians, or will condemn us. We will not be able to blame someone else's false testimony on it, but will be our own testimony. In fact, Solomon stated (Prov 20:27) that the spirit of a man is the candle of the Lord which searches out what is deep down inside of a man. God isn't going to look any further than us for the three witnesses. And BTW, a false confession of Christ, and poor actions, along with bad fruit, only gives 1 witnesses that you're a Christian. If you don't have at least two witnesses to prove you're a Christian, then two out of three bad witnesses will send you to hell.
     
  10. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    When I was young, I was given the impression that the job of the Two Witnesses was
    to go around blasting sinners with fire from heaven if they dared to arrest them. Or if
    any territory or nation did not believe in Jesus, they would cover the land with blood
    much like what occurred in Egypt during the first plague.

    Back in those days, I knew little or nothing about the difference between the two covenants.
    Having been raised a Dispensationalist and a Christian Zionist, I assumed that the Two
    Witnesses were Jews who were re-establishing the Old Covenant in preparation for the
    Jewish Kingdom in the coming "Age of Law" after the close of the present "Age of Grace."

    I now see things a whole lot differently after reading (and understanding) the Book of
    Hebrews.

    The primary job description of the Two Witnesses is to bear witness of Jesus Christ through
    the law and the prophets, represented by Moses and Elijah. More specifically, it is Joshua
    and Elisha in our day, because we are in the time of the second work of Christ.

    But we can see a major hint by looking at John the Baptist, who was sent "in the spirit and
    power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17) at the time of the first work of Christ.

    (17) And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to
    turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the
    righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


    So his job was to get the people ready, to change their mindset in such a way that they
    would know the divine plan and agree with that plan. As I see it, this is the primary function
    of the Two Witnesses today. It is not to force people into compliance by threatening them
    with plagues or fire from heaven. It was to prepare the people for "the baptism of fire"
    (Matt. 3:11).

    The Old Covenant method of converting people was "Convert or Die!" Such a method was
    allowed earlier only because Israel had rejected the voice of God at Sinai at their first
    Pentecost (Ex. 20:18-21). Their hearts were hardened, and for this reason, God said in
    Psalm 95:7, "Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." In refusing to hear
    His voice, they were unable to fulfill the terms of Pentecost, so they were instructed to
    observe this feast every year until it was fulfilled in Acts 2.

    Israel conquered Canaan by a physical sword because they lacked the Sword of the
    Spirit that had been offered to them at Sinai on that first Pentecost. But we should not
    glorify such bloody conquests as if such methods were an accurate reflection of the
    heart of God. Nor should we think that the Sword of the Spirit, given to the Church in
    an "Age of Grace," was only a temporary interlude before reverting back to Old Covenant
    methods of conversion.

    No, the Book of Hebrews makes it clear that the New Covenant is a "better" one (8:6).
    Having established something "better," God will never revert back to that which is worse.
    Nor does God expect "gentiles" to abide by the New Covenant, and Jews to abide by the
    Old Covenant. Keep in mind that the book above is NOT entitled "the Book of Gentiles."
    It is the Book of Hebrews, and it is designed to bring Hebrew people out from under the
    Old Covenant and into something "better."

    In Luke 9:54, Jesus' disciples once asked Him if they should call down fire from heaven
    upon the Samaritan city that rejected Jesus. They had an Old Covenant mentality. Jesus
    responded,

    (55) But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you
    are of; (56) for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."


    We can apply this to the Two Witnesses. Rev. 11:5 says that "fire proceeds out of their
    mouth and devours their enemies." The fact that the fire is coming out of their mouth
    tells us that it is not a literal fire. It is the fire of the Word of God, which has an entirely
    different effect upon the people. "In this manner he must be killed." Yes, there are two
    ways to kill people. The first is by a literal fire that burns people to crispy critters. The
    second is the baptism of fire by which people repent, "die daily," and are purified by
    the word of the fiery sword that comes from the mouth of Christ.

    The type of death prescribed depends upon which covenant is in operation. It
    depends upon which sword a person is using. Is it the physical sword in one's
    hand? or is it the spiritual sword in one's mouth?

    The Two Witnesses are also said to "have power over the waters to turn them into
    blood" (Rev. 11:6). This is the "Moses" ministry, and Jesus was the Prophet like
    Moses (Deut. 18:18, quoted in Acts 3:22). The difference is in their two covenants.
    Moses mediated the Old Covenant, while Jesus mediated the New.

    Under Moses, Egypt was covered in blood. Under Jesus, the world is covered by
    the blood of Jesus Christ. While the "plague" appears to be the same, the effects
    are entirely different. They are as different as the "fire" of Elijah was from the "fire"
    of John the Baptist.

    At the end of the Old Testament, we are left with two admonitions in the book of
    Malachi. We are told to "remember the law of Moses" (4:4) and to watch for "Elijah
    the prophet." The first appearance of Christ was preceded by John the Baptist,
    whom Jesus called "Elijah" (Matt. 11:14). Yet there is no mention of any second
    witness coming in the spirit and power of MOSES.

    It seems to me that John's ministry was incomplete without this counterpart. In
    that sense, it was only a partial fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy, and so God
    never intended for it to succeed. Hence, John was killed, and his death meant
    that Jesus too would have to die. This was the divine plan in that first appearance,
    because the first goat (Lev. 16) and the first dove (Lev. 14) had to die.

    We, however, are living in the time of the second goat and the second dove, which
    is a living work. In this time, there are TWO witnesses, not just one, because this
    time Moses is part of the divine plan to back Elijah and vice versa. I find it interesting
    in this light that during the Age of Pentecost the Church has known to watch for Elijah,
    but they forgot the law of Moses. This pattern was established in the fact that John
    came as Elijah without Moses as a back-up.

    But this is all changing now. We are seeing that Moses is not to be feared or shunned.
    The law is not evil, nor is it a death-trap when viewed through the eyes of Christ and
    applied as a New Covenant Sword of the Spirit.

    Moses is now Joshua. Elijah is now Elisha. The shift suggests a progression from
    the Old Covenant to the New and from the good to the "better." This is our revelation
    in the past year as God has clarified these things to us. I believe that we have already
    entered the time of the Two Witnesses even now, and I suspect that the relevant time
    frame involved is 3-1/2 years from June 21, 2009 to December 21, 2012.

    We ought to see how the law and the prophets complement each other
    and bear witness to each other.

    And let's not forget that third witness--the Psalms (Luke 24:44).

    Logabe
     
  11. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    Editing to revise...I just had another thought. :D Be back tomorrow!
     
  12. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    The Two Witnesses in Zechariah 4 are Joshua and Zerubbabel, but in Revelation 11
    they are described in terms of Moses and Elijah--though not named specifically. Rev.
    11:4-6 says,

    (4) These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord
    of the earth. (5) And if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth
    and devours their enemies, and if anyone would desire to harm them, in this manner
    he must be killed.


    This is a reference to Elijah, against whom King Ahaziah issued an arrest warrant in
    2 Kings 1. The arresting officer and his 50 deputies demanded that Elijah surrender
    to them.

    (10) And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, "If I am a man of God,
    let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty." Then fire
    came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.


    This happened one more time, and the third captain came more respectfully and
    requested that Elijah be merciful and come with him peaceably. So this is the story
    that Rev. 11:5 is referencing in regard to fire devouring the enemies of the Two
    Witnesses. It shows that they have an Elijah ministry, although the Two Witnesses
    are sent under the New Covenant, in which the method differs. The "fire" now is the
    baptism of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:11).

    Secondly, we read in Rev. 11:6,

    (6) These have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall
    during the days of their prophesying . . .


    This is another reference to Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1, saying,

    (1) Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, "As
    the Lord, the God of Israel lives, there shall be neither dew nor rain these years,
    except by my word."


    Once again, the "rain" under the New Covenant is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit,
    the "latter and former rain" of Joel 2:23 and Acts 2:17-21. This relates also to
    Noah's flood, which removed the breath (ruach = spirit) from all men, but under the
    New Covenant there is a second flood (this time a flood of the Holy Spirit) that puts
    the Spirit back into all men.

    In other words, the primary work of the Two Witnesses is to be the agents by which
    the Holy Spirit is poured out upon all flesh. In Acts 2 it was about the Pentecostal
    outpouring, but today we look for a greater anointing under the power of the Feast
    of Tabernacles.

    I believe also that there is a reason why Revelation 11 does not actually name
    Moses and Elijah, even though they are clearly referenced. This divine silence is
    due to the fact that the Kingdom has progressed from Old Covenant to the New
    Covenant, and so the "rain" and "fire" are taking a different and more positive form.
    This, I believe, is also why Moses gives way to Joshua, and Elijah gives way to
    Elisha. This seems to speak of each having two parts, the first under the Old
    Covenant, and the second under the New Covenant.

    Hence, the Old Covenant was mediated by Moses, while the New Covenant was
    mediated by Joshua (Yeshua-Jesus). Likewise, Elisha received the double
    portion of Elijah, which implies the birthright inheritance that comes through
    Joseph in the time of the second work of Christ.

    Joseph, along with Joshua the Ephraimite and Elisha, are all types of Christ in
    His second work, so we are seeing all of them coming to the forefront at this
    end of the age. The discovery of the Joseph coins in the Egyptian museum last
    September 24, and the hidden treasures found and announced on the same
    day, all coincided with the earlier revelation about Haggai 2:18, 19 in regard to
    the 24th day of the 9th month, saying, "from this day on, I will bless you."

    At any rate, all of this strongly suggests that we are now preparing for an
    outpouring of the Holy Spirit on a scale never before seen in human history.
    It will be the New Testament equivalent of Noah's flood, but with a positive
    effect. The Two Witnesses are the "sons of oil" (Zech. 4:14, lit. translation),
    called to pour oil into the lampstands. Whatever one says about the rain
    and fire must be viewed within the context of this "oil" ministry.

    I believe shortly we will begin to see the "oil" of the Spirit poured into the
    lampstands by the Two Witnesses.I have been compelled to focus upon
    the Two Witnesses and their "oil" ministry.

    The "festival of lights," or, as it is called in John 10:22, "the feast of the
    dedication," it commemorates the time when the second temple was
    dedicated and when the one-day supply of oil miraculously was extended
    for eight days to cleanse the temple.

    John 10:23 says, "It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple
    in the portico of Solomon."


    Why is this important? Because Solomon was the one who dedicated
    the original Temple in Jerusalem. John is making the connection between
    the two dedications. Solomon was the Prince, the son of King David. His
    name, derived from shalom, means "peaceful." There were no wars during
    his reign. Solomon was a type of Christ in this way, for Jesus is the "Prince
    of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).

    Most of the people themselves, along with the religious leaders of the day,
    preferred a militant messiah, one who would throw off the Roman yoke
    and establish them as the "chosen people" so that they could (mis)rule
    everyone else as their slaves. When He came as the Prince of Peace,
    they rejected Him, even though His works proved who He was.

    So Jesus told them in verses 26 and 27 that they were not His sheep,
    regardless of their genealogy. His sheep hear His voice. These non-sheep
    refused to hear the word of Jeremiah and Daniel, who instructed them to
    be content in their captivity until God set them free. They were continually
    trying to overthrow Rome by the hand of numerous false messiahs, and
    they only made their captivity worse.

    So if they refused to hear the prophets, it is no surprise that they would not
    be able to hear the voice of the True Messiah, the Prince of Peace. Freedom
    from the Babylonian system comes only through the second work/appearance
    of Christ. I believe we are seeing today the beginning of this overthrow of
    Babylon and the rise of Joseph and the Two Witness ministries. So look up,
    for your redemption draws nigh.

    Logabe
     
  13. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Two things are clear from Revelation 11 in regard to the Two Witnesses.

    First, it is clear that their ministry of preparing the way for Christ is successful.
    In this regard, they are able to call down the baptism of fire from heaven, the
    former and latter rain, and cover the earth with the power of the blood of Christ.

    Second, it is clear that their ministry ends in seeming failure. Their New
    Covenant message is "killed" in the "streets" of the Old Jerusalem, which is
    also Sodom and Egypt.

    There is a great dichotomy here of success and failure, showing that even
    "failure" cannot prevent the success of the Kingdom. Remember that Elisha
    himself died before completing his 16th miracle, but it happened anyway.
    When men hastily threw a dead man into Elisha's tomb, the man was raised
    from the dead (2 Kings 13:21).

    The successful failure of the work of the Two Witnesses has occurred over
    the centuries by the overcomers on behalf of The Seven Churches. The
    whole Church was called, as Rev. 2 and 3 shows, but only those who
    overcome are given the special rewards. It was the same in ancient Israel,
    where the entire nation was called, but only a remnant actually fulfilled the
    calling (Rom. 11:5).

    There were overcomers in the Passover-Age Church, and there are
    overcomers in the Pentecostal-Age church. The patterns are the same in
    The Seven Churches of the Old Covenant as well as The Seven Churches
    of the New Covenant. And in both cases, the overcomers were given into
    the hands of Old Jerusalem for persecution.

    Jesus said in Luke 13:33, "it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside
    of Jerusalem."
    In the OT times, the prophets were killed in the old city of
    Jerusalem; but during the Pentecostal Age, the prophets have been killed
    by the Old Covenant mentality of Jerusalem. Yet the day comes when they
    and their message will be raised up.

    The resurrection of the Two Witnesses probably has more than one side
    to it. It is likely that this also is the first resurrection of Revelation 20, which
    is limited to the overcomers."Catching away" (harpazo) must occur on the
    8th day of Tabernacles of some year to be presented to the Father. They
    will return the same day to be "manifested" to the world as the Sons of God.
    This is the manifestation of the Sons of God.

    There have been long-term prophetic cycles of 1,260 years, wherein the
    Two Witness companies of overcomers have ministered the principles of
    the New Covenant. For the most part, they appear to have failed, because
    Old Covenant religion has remained dominent in the majority of people
    and certainly in the three religions of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.

    And yet it is also clear that they are able to complete their work of preparing
    the way for Christ's coming. While God allowed many of them to be killed
    over the centuries, He raises up more in each generation to continue
    witnessing of the New Jerusalem.

    And here we see a clear distinction between John the Baptist and the Two
    Witnesses of Revelation 11. John's ministry was cut short at Passover of
    30 A.D., and this established the pattern for Jesus' own death three years
    later at Passover of 33. The ministry of Elijah was to "restore all things"
    (Mark 9:12), but he died before being able to complete the work. It is left to
    the overcomers to complete this work, and though men have continued to
    kill them, they cannot kill them all, because they have multiplied into a
    whole body of people. There is always someone else to continue the work
    until it is completed in the final generation.

    The bottom line is that the Two Witness companies have continued their
    ministry for many centuries, and though most have lived and died without
    seeing the fruit of their labor, we are now seeing the first glimmer of
    success. Nonetheless, whether we live or die to see it fully accomplished,
    we can rest assured that we are all part of one body and as such we will
    receive the same reward. Those who came first sowed the seed; others
    watered, and the last laborers harvest; but all are partakers of the fruits of
    the Kingdom
    .


    Logabe
     
  14. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    I am unsure whether anyone will read this since its last posting is so long ago, but... The Two Witnesses are two people and they are not Jews... not guess They are Gentiles....fact... sorry if that does not fit what you want. They are the two canldesticks and the two olive trees, but not of the 7 and so there place is not with the 7 but rather to stand beside Jesus...
     
  15. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Logabe, your understanding is in error. The Two Witnesses are people they are alive and well today. They are in their 50's now. Does that hep you?
     
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