Mark 9:11 "And they asked Him saying, "Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?"Jesus disciples are now asking Him why the scribes and prophets have stated that Elijah must come before Christ? They are still trying to sort all the information out. They still don't realize that there is a second advent coming. However they are starting to realize that Christ will be crucified and rise again on the third day.Mark 9:12 "And He answered and told them, "Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that He must suffer many things, and be set at nought."Jesus Christ is trying to let His disciples know that it is written in the Old Testament that these things must come to pass exactly as they are written. At the first Advent, He would be crucified and be raised from the dead, and then before the second advent Elijah would return and turn the hearts of the people to their fathers.Mark 9:13 "But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."We know that Jesus is referring here to John the Baptist, the forerunner of Christ, and Herod and his people killed John the Baptist the same as they will do to Christ. They beheaded John the Baptist. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.Matthew 11:13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."Matthew 11:14 "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."IF [COLOR="SandyBrown][/COLOR]Christ /Johns message had been received John would have served to come in the spirit of Elijah (he would have served to fulfill this prochecy) however as we know Christ was not received except by a few until after he was killed so Mal. 4:5 goes unfulfilled Matthew 11:15 "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
The Two Witnesses
- Thread starter samy
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
(samy;44932)
Rise and measure the temple of GodIn the New Testament, the temple and its various features are often used to illustrate truth about the church. Peter writes: "you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 2:5). Paul reminds the church at Corinth, "for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are" (1 Cor. 3:17). Members of the Philadelphian church are promised that they will be made "pillar(s) in the temple" (Rev. 3:12). In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he illustrates redemption by describing the wall of the temple that divided the inner Jewish court and outer gentile court. Christ’s redemptive work tore down "the dividing wall" and created one body of believers (Eph. 2:14). Paul then presents Christ, the apostles and prophets, and all the saints as the foundation and building materials fitted together "into a holy temple in the Lord...a dwelling of God in the Spirit" (Eph. 2:20-22).In Revelation 11, the temple, the outer court, and the holy city are similarly employed to portray saints. Some of these saints, later designated as "two witnesses," are first introduced as "the temple, altar and those who worship in it." They are measured and specifically distinguished from a larger community, those who do not worship in the altar and the "court which is outside." The entire church, the whole body of Christ, is presented by the figure of the temple, the outer court, and the holy city, but this chapter focuses on those who "worship in the altar." The subsequent discussion and description of two witnesses revolve around those "measured" members of the church whose worship is altar-worship.The saints brought to our attention as the two witnesses are ethnic believing Jews. In the temple, the inner and outer courts separated ethnic Jews and gentiles who worshipped the one true God. Likewise, the believing Jews in chapter 11 are distinguished from believing gentiles. Worship in the altarOur understanding of the central purpose of the two witnesses' ministry is established when they are described as "those who worship in [the altar]" (11:1). The entire book of Revelation is a call to worship in the altar, to recognize and value above all else the nature of God demonstrated in the Lamb. It is the Lamb who is central to God's rule, "in the center of the throne" (5:6, 7:17). It is the Lamb's wisdom ("eyes") and Lamb's power ("horns") that are the spirits sent "into all the earth" (5:5). It is from the altar that prayers ascend and judgment descends (8:3-5). It is in the blood of the Lamb that robes are made white (7:14). It is the sacrifice of the Lamb, the ultimate Priest and King, that makes both priests and kings (5:10). The power of the altar, "four horns of the golden altar," appropriately calls for the inevitable destruction inherent and residing in the Euphrates, the life-source of Babylon (9:13-15). It is from the altar that the angel comes to reap the harvest of the earth hostile to God (14:18). It is the altar that speaks during the judgment of the earth's rivers and springs saying, "Thus, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments" (16:7). The two witnesses, as those who worship in the altar, are witnesses to life defined by the altar.Thus, in chapter 11, our attention is drawn to the two witnesses. They are first characterized and distinguished by the scene where John is instructed to measure between the Jewish and gentile courts of the Temple. They are described specifically as those who worship in the altar. And then their identity is further developed as "the two olive trees and the two lampstands." Two olive treesIn verse 4, the two witnesses are identified as "the two olive trees...that stand before the Lord of the earth." Although the two olive trees are not found elsewhere in the book of Revelation, they are identified in Zechariah 4. In that context, an angel shows Zechariah two olive trees that supply oil to a single lampstand. As Zechariah presses the angel for an explanation, especially of the two olive branches, he learns that "these are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech. 4:14). Dr. Feinberg says of this scene,Practically all expositors interpret the last three verses thus: the two olive trees are the priestly and kingly offices of Israel; the two olive branches or twigs are their then incumbents, Joshua and Zerubbabel. Theirs is a position of responsibility in service before the Lord of all the earth. Ultimately these two servants of God in their official capacities adumbrate the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah who is both King and Priest. Thus the reference to the two olive trees tells us that the two witnesses of Revelation typify respectively the offices of priest and king. Two lampstandsIn their respective typical roles, the two witnesses are also "the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." Lampstands are a familiar symbol from the context of Revelation 1-3. In chapter 1, the seven churches are identified as seven lampstands (1:20). In chapters 2 and 3, the two lampstands, the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, are distinguished by the fact that they stand without criticism while the five others are warned by the Lord to repent from their fallen condition. But for Philadelphia and Smyrna to be "the two lampstands that stand" we would expect them also to be composed of Jews, with one church demonstrating the priestly office and the other church the kingly. Such appears to be the case. Of all the remarks made to the seven churches, only Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as Jews who had become followers of Christ. In both cases, the Lord speaks to the concern of believing Jews who had been put out of synagogues by unbelieving Jews, "those who say they are Jews" (2:9, 3:9). When we consider that the Lord addresses only these two churches regarding their experience with the "synagogue of Satan" (ethnic Jewish non-believers who falsely claimed to be God's true synagogue), it seems reasonable to conclude that the Lord regarded Philadelphia and Smyrna as the rightful claimants to the title "Jew," and saw their assemblies as the true synagogues. Gentile churches would not be inclined to a negative reaction toward ethnic non-believing Jews calling themselves Jews, or consequently in need of the Lord's assurance that He regarded such false claimants as a synagogue of Satan. Converted gentiles were called Christians, not Jews, and they gathered together as churches, not synagogues. Likewise, of all the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as those destined to demonstrate the offices of priest and king. Whereas Smyrna (2:8) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who was dead and has come to life" (first advent, the great High Priest who gave His own life), Philadelphia (3:7) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who has the key of David" (second advent, the King of Kings). Whereas Smyrna will suffer tribulation and death just as her High Priest Jesus, Philadelphia will be treated as a king by her enemies who "will come and bow down" at their feet. Philadelphia and Smyrna are therefore two lampstands (ethnic Jewish churches) that stand and exhibit characteristics of the priestly and kingly offices (the two olive trees). Measured for ministryThe act of "measuring" both of these churches apart from the five gentile churches ("court which is outside") relates to enabling these two churches to accomplish their special prophetic task, whether they find themselves in the heat of persecution (as in Smyrna) or in a position of relative safety (as in Philadelphia). In the same way, whether Old Testament prophets were persecuted, as Elijah, or roamed free, as Elisha, they were equally set apart and supernaturally endowed for the service of God.John is supplied "a measuring reed like a ruler's scepter" (11:1). This scepter is not a normal measuring device. The fact that a scepter is to be used for measuring is notice that the results are the function of a king's authority. And the kind of measuring that John is acting out is apparently similar to what King David did when he defeated Moab (2 Sam. 8:2). The measuring in that context meant the difference between life and death for a conquered people.This picture of ethnic Jewish believers being distinguished from and treated differently than gentile believers with whom they share a common identity in the body of Christ, is consistent also with the pictures in Revelation 7, 12, 14, and 15. In chapter 7, the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel share a common identity as servants of God with the great multitude of all the nations, but are distinguished by nationality and the act of sealing. In chapter 12, "the woman" (12:1) and "the rest of her offspring" (12:17) share identity as those who "keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" but are distinguished in the exclusively Jewish-Christian description of the woman and the special treatment ("place prepared by God," "nourished," "two wings of the great eagle") given her by God during the career of the dragon. In chapter 14, the 144,000 are with the Lord on Mount Zion as "firstfruits" of the Lord's harvest, singing a song no others could learn, while an undesignated group "who had come off victorious from the beast" (15:2) sing the Lord's praises with the phrase, "all the nations will come and worship before You." This last group only comes into our view after the 144,000 are with the Lord, and the subsequent scene of harvest is described (14:14-16). This singling out of a believing Jewish remnant for a powerful prophetic ministry during the time of the great tribulation was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28 ff.) and was repeated by the assembled saints on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:17). Joel said that the Spirit was to be poured out upon the sons of Israel without distinction between sex, age, or class ("all flesh"), resulting in a ministry of prophecy and the display of God's power. Two witnesses not two peopleSome commentators have suggested Old Testament prophets such as Moses and Elijah as historically typical of the two witnesses or are coming again to be the two witnesses. Indeed, some such Old Testament individuals or scenarios may be typical of the Revelation scene. A likely pair whose case strongly resembles the present scene are Moses and Aaron. They filled the offices of priest and king in Israel in opposition to the wicked Pharaoh and his magician priests. In that case, we also see God's supernatural power granted in opposition to the diabolical power of Pharaoh's priests.However likely it is that Moses and Aaron or others are typical of the two witnesses' ministry, the language of chapter 11 does not support the suggestion that the two witnesses are two individual persons. The text states that they are "the two lampstands that stand," a direct reference to the churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna. The singular nouns "mouth" (11:5) and "body" (11:8-9) properly express functions of a large body of people but would be linguistic errors in reference to two persons. The beast is said to "make war with them and kill them" at the conclusion of their testimony. Such a description does not fit the simple execution of two persons. Next, we are notified that their dead "body" (singular, not plural) lies (verb supplied by translators) “in the street of the great city.” Because the phrase "the great city" is discovered to be a reference to the "woman" (great harlot) of chapters 17 and 18, who personifies the multiplied Babylon-like cities of the world, a great number of dead are envisioned lying in the streets of the world's cities. It was here in the Babylon-like world-city that Jesus was crucified. In addition, the wide number of those from "the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations" who look at their dead bodies speaks of a large number of dead bodies distributed widely. Nothing in the text of chapter 11 leads us to hypothesize two individual persons; but everything about the text and the further context of Revelation leads us to the two churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. Two witnesses and the trumpetsAs the witnesses fulfill their prophetic calling in the context of the beast's opposition, calamity results on a world-wide scale. A comparison between the description of the two witnesses' miraculous power and the scene from chapter 8 at the beginning of the trumpets brings this picture into sharp focus. In chapter 8, the ascent of the saints' prayers is seen to precede the hail and fire (trumpet one), a great star burning with fire (trumpet two), and a great star burning like a torch (trumpet three), all of which fall consecutively on earth with various consequences, followed by a darkness (trumpet four) and a plague (trumpet five). By comparison, in chapter 11 it is said of the two witnesses that,...if any one desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies...these have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. (11:5-6)If "fire proceeds out of their mouth" means that they speak and fire results as Moses spoke and a fiery hail resulted, or Elijah spoke and fire came down from heaven, then the scenes under the trumpets and the ministry of the two witnesses appears to be one and the same. The two witnesses turn water to blood and smite the earth with plagues and call fire down from heaven just as we see under the trumpets. And if to this we add the scene that Joel foresaw, then we conclude that the supernatural calamity under the trumpets is directed from heaven in response to the words of the two witnesses against the ungodly. This is not unlike the case of Israel being delivered from Egypt.Thus we conclude that the two witnesses are the two churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna, demonstrating the priestly and kingly function, composed exclusively of the tribes of Israel. They are set apart from the five gentile churches who will by this time have become compromised by the world to the point where they no longer present themselves as an effective force for the Lord. They will be supported spiritually by faithful gentiles who, as minority members of the five churches, continue to obey and glorify the Lord (cf: Rev. 2-3). The identity of the two witnesses, and the condition of the five gentile churches, provides a chilling reminder of Paul's words to the Romans,You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you (Rom. 11:19-21).
samy, The Two Witnesses mentioned at Rev 11:3, are not two specific people, but a picture of true Christians witnessing in our time. The reason the term TWO WITNESSES, is used is because that is the law about being able to prove something true, Deut 19:15, John 8:17, Heb 10:28.
Rise and measure the temple of GodIn the New Testament, the temple and its various features are often used to illustrate truth about the church. Peter writes: "you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 2:5). Paul reminds the church at Corinth, "for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are" (1 Cor. 3:17). Members of the Philadelphian church are promised that they will be made "pillar(s) in the temple" (Rev. 3:12). In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he illustrates redemption by describing the wall of the temple that divided the inner Jewish court and outer gentile court. Christ’s redemptive work tore down "the dividing wall" and created one body of believers (Eph. 2:14). Paul then presents Christ, the apostles and prophets, and all the saints as the foundation and building materials fitted together "into a holy temple in the Lord...a dwelling of God in the Spirit" (Eph. 2:20-22).In Revelation 11, the temple, the outer court, and the holy city are similarly employed to portray saints. Some of these saints, later designated as "two witnesses," are first introduced as "the temple, altar and those who worship in it." They are measured and specifically distinguished from a larger community, those who do not worship in the altar and the "court which is outside." The entire church, the whole body of Christ, is presented by the figure of the temple, the outer court, and the holy city, but this chapter focuses on those who "worship in the altar." The subsequent discussion and description of two witnesses revolve around those "measured" members of the church whose worship is altar-worship.The saints brought to our attention as the two witnesses are ethnic believing Jews. In the temple, the inner and outer courts separated ethnic Jews and gentiles who worshipped the one true God. Likewise, the believing Jews in chapter 11 are distinguished from believing gentiles. Worship in the altarOur understanding of the central purpose of the two witnesses' ministry is established when they are described as "those who worship in [the altar]" (11:1). The entire book of Revelation is a call to worship in the altar, to recognize and value above all else the nature of God demonstrated in the Lamb. It is the Lamb who is central to God's rule, "in the center of the throne" (5:6, 7:17). It is the Lamb's wisdom ("eyes") and Lamb's power ("horns") that are the spirits sent "into all the earth" (5:5). It is from the altar that prayers ascend and judgment descends (8:3-5). It is in the blood of the Lamb that robes are made white (7:14). It is the sacrifice of the Lamb, the ultimate Priest and King, that makes both priests and kings (5:10). The power of the altar, "four horns of the golden altar," appropriately calls for the inevitable destruction inherent and residing in the Euphrates, the life-source of Babylon (9:13-15). It is from the altar that the angel comes to reap the harvest of the earth hostile to God (14:18). It is the altar that speaks during the judgment of the earth's rivers and springs saying, "Thus, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments" (16:7). The two witnesses, as those who worship in the altar, are witnesses to life defined by the altar.Thus, in chapter 11, our attention is drawn to the two witnesses. They are first characterized and distinguished by the scene where John is instructed to measure between the Jewish and gentile courts of the Temple. They are described specifically as those who worship in the altar. And then their identity is further developed as "the two olive trees and the two lampstands." Two olive treesIn verse 4, the two witnesses are identified as "the two olive trees...that stand before the Lord of the earth." Although the two olive trees are not found elsewhere in the book of Revelation, they are identified in Zechariah 4. In that context, an angel shows Zechariah two olive trees that supply oil to a single lampstand. As Zechariah presses the angel for an explanation, especially of the two olive branches, he learns that "these are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth" (Zech. 4:14). Dr. Feinberg says of this scene,Practically all expositors interpret the last three verses thus: the two olive trees are the priestly and kingly offices of Israel; the two olive branches or twigs are their then incumbents, Joshua and Zerubbabel. Theirs is a position of responsibility in service before the Lord of all the earth. Ultimately these two servants of God in their official capacities adumbrate the Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah who is both King and Priest. Thus the reference to the two olive trees tells us that the two witnesses of Revelation typify respectively the offices of priest and king. Two lampstandsIn their respective typical roles, the two witnesses are also "the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." Lampstands are a familiar symbol from the context of Revelation 1-3. In chapter 1, the seven churches are identified as seven lampstands (1:20). In chapters 2 and 3, the two lampstands, the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, are distinguished by the fact that they stand without criticism while the five others are warned by the Lord to repent from their fallen condition. But for Philadelphia and Smyrna to be "the two lampstands that stand" we would expect them also to be composed of Jews, with one church demonstrating the priestly office and the other church the kingly. Such appears to be the case. Of all the remarks made to the seven churches, only Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as Jews who had become followers of Christ. In both cases, the Lord speaks to the concern of believing Jews who had been put out of synagogues by unbelieving Jews, "those who say they are Jews" (2:9, 3:9). When we consider that the Lord addresses only these two churches regarding their experience with the "synagogue of Satan" (ethnic Jewish non-believers who falsely claimed to be God's true synagogue), it seems reasonable to conclude that the Lord regarded Philadelphia and Smyrna as the rightful claimants to the title "Jew," and saw their assemblies as the true synagogues. Gentile churches would not be inclined to a negative reaction toward ethnic non-believing Jews calling themselves Jews, or consequently in need of the Lord's assurance that He regarded such false claimants as a synagogue of Satan. Converted gentiles were called Christians, not Jews, and they gathered together as churches, not synagogues. Likewise, of all the seven churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia are addressed as those destined to demonstrate the offices of priest and king. Whereas Smyrna (2:8) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who was dead and has come to life" (first advent, the great High Priest who gave His own life), Philadelphia (3:7) is presented with a picture of Jesus "who has the key of David" (second advent, the King of Kings). Whereas Smyrna will suffer tribulation and death just as her High Priest Jesus, Philadelphia will be treated as a king by her enemies who "will come and bow down" at their feet. Philadelphia and Smyrna are therefore two lampstands (ethnic Jewish churches) that stand and exhibit characteristics of the priestly and kingly offices (the two olive trees). Measured for ministryThe act of "measuring" both of these churches apart from the five gentile churches ("court which is outside") relates to enabling these two churches to accomplish their special prophetic task, whether they find themselves in the heat of persecution (as in Smyrna) or in a position of relative safety (as in Philadelphia). In the same way, whether Old Testament prophets were persecuted, as Elijah, or roamed free, as Elisha, they were equally set apart and supernaturally endowed for the service of God.John is supplied "a measuring reed like a ruler's scepter" (11:1). This scepter is not a normal measuring device. The fact that a scepter is to be used for measuring is notice that the results are the function of a king's authority. And the kind of measuring that John is acting out is apparently similar to what King David did when he defeated Moab (2 Sam. 8:2). The measuring in that context meant the difference between life and death for a conquered people.This picture of ethnic Jewish believers being distinguished from and treated differently than gentile believers with whom they share a common identity in the body of Christ, is consistent also with the pictures in Revelation 7, 12, 14, and 15. In chapter 7, the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel share a common identity as servants of God with the great multitude of all the nations, but are distinguished by nationality and the act of sealing. In chapter 12, "the woman" (12:1) and "the rest of her offspring" (12:17) share identity as those who "keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" but are distinguished in the exclusively Jewish-Christian description of the woman and the special treatment ("place prepared by God," "nourished," "two wings of the great eagle") given her by God during the career of the dragon. In chapter 14, the 144,000 are with the Lord on Mount Zion as "firstfruits" of the Lord's harvest, singing a song no others could learn, while an undesignated group "who had come off victorious from the beast" (15:2) sing the Lord's praises with the phrase, "all the nations will come and worship before You." This last group only comes into our view after the 144,000 are with the Lord, and the subsequent scene of harvest is described (14:14-16). This singling out of a believing Jewish remnant for a powerful prophetic ministry during the time of the great tribulation was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28 ff.) and was repeated by the assembled saints on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:17). Joel said that the Spirit was to be poured out upon the sons of Israel without distinction between sex, age, or class ("all flesh"), resulting in a ministry of prophecy and the display of God's power. Two witnesses not two peopleSome commentators have suggested Old Testament prophets such as Moses and Elijah as historically typical of the two witnesses or are coming again to be the two witnesses. Indeed, some such Old Testament individuals or scenarios may be typical of the Revelation scene. A likely pair whose case strongly resembles the present scene are Moses and Aaron. They filled the offices of priest and king in Israel in opposition to the wicked Pharaoh and his magician priests. In that case, we also see God's supernatural power granted in opposition to the diabolical power of Pharaoh's priests.However likely it is that Moses and Aaron or others are typical of the two witnesses' ministry, the language of chapter 11 does not support the suggestion that the two witnesses are two individual persons. The text states that they are "the two lampstands that stand," a direct reference to the churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna. The singular nouns "mouth" (11:5) and "body" (11:8-9) properly express functions of a large body of people but would be linguistic errors in reference to two persons. The beast is said to "make war with them and kill them" at the conclusion of their testimony. Such a description does not fit the simple execution of two persons. Next, we are notified that their dead "body" (singular, not plural) lies (verb supplied by translators) “in the street of the great city.” Because the phrase "the great city" is discovered to be a reference to the "woman" (great harlot) of chapters 17 and 18, who personifies the multiplied Babylon-like cities of the world, a great number of dead are envisioned lying in the streets of the world's cities. It was here in the Babylon-like world-city that Jesus was crucified. In addition, the wide number of those from "the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations" who look at their dead bodies speaks of a large number of dead bodies distributed widely. Nothing in the text of chapter 11 leads us to hypothesize two individual persons; but everything about the text and the further context of Revelation leads us to the two churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. Two witnesses and the trumpetsAs the witnesses fulfill their prophetic calling in the context of the beast's opposition, calamity results on a world-wide scale. A comparison between the description of the two witnesses' miraculous power and the scene from chapter 8 at the beginning of the trumpets brings this picture into sharp focus. In chapter 8, the ascent of the saints' prayers is seen to precede the hail and fire (trumpet one), a great star burning with fire (trumpet two), and a great star burning like a torch (trumpet three), all of which fall consecutively on earth with various consequences, followed by a darkness (trumpet four) and a plague (trumpet five). By comparison, in chapter 11 it is said of the two witnesses that,...if any one desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies...these have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. (11:5-6)If "fire proceeds out of their mouth" means that they speak and fire results as Moses spoke and a fiery hail resulted, or Elijah spoke and fire came down from heaven, then the scenes under the trumpets and the ministry of the two witnesses appears to be one and the same. The two witnesses turn water to blood and smite the earth with plagues and call fire down from heaven just as we see under the trumpets. And if to this we add the scene that Joel foresaw, then we conclude that the supernatural calamity under the trumpets is directed from heaven in response to the words of the two witnesses against the ungodly. This is not unlike the case of Israel being delivered from Egypt.Thus we conclude that the two witnesses are the two churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna, demonstrating the priestly and kingly function, composed exclusively of the tribes of Israel. They are set apart from the five gentile churches who will by this time have become compromised by the world to the point where they no longer present themselves as an effective force for the Lord. They will be supported spiritually by faithful gentiles who, as minority members of the five churches, continue to obey and glorify the Lord (cf: Rev. 2-3). The identity of the two witnesses, and the condition of the five gentile churches, provides a chilling reminder of Paul's words to the Romans,You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you (Rom. 11:19-21).
samy, The Two Witnesses mentioned at Rev 11:3, are not two specific people, but a picture of true Christians witnessing in our time. The reason the term TWO WITNESSES, is used is because that is the law about being able to prove something true, Deut 19:15, John 8:17, Heb 10:28.
We are told they are witnesses………………. We are given Two symbols that tell us who these are. 3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.Ok So what is an Olive Tree in the BibleJeremiah 11: 16 The LORD once called you, 'A green olive tree, fair with goodly fruit'; but with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.And again in Hosea14: 5 I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall grow like the lily, and lengthen his roots like Lebanon. 6 His branches shall spread; his beauty shall be like an olive tree, and his fragrance like Lebanon.And Paul calls Israel the Olive Tree in Romans 11: 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,Lampstands are the Churches in Revelation 1:20 As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.The Greek word for church here was " the assembly of called out ones" which is what Israel was the called out ones. So a Lampstand means called out ones.So the Twelve Tribes are the Olive Tree and we are Grafted into the Olive Tree when we are saved.Ok so who are Gods Witnesses does Jesus also say the Olive Tree is his Witnesses.Isaiah 43:1 But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.......9 Let all the nations gather together, and let the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to justify them, and let them hear and say, It is true. 10 "You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.Most do not realize but Israel.............the two Houses .................the house of Judah and the house of Israel are the only entities God calls his witnesses. So when God says MY TWO WITNESSES should we not trust who God says his witnesses are.
I completley agree that the house of Judah and Israel are seperate but they are not the two wittness's the two wittness are two men though I believe one will each be from the house of Judah and one from the House of Israel. They are two individuals. Not to groups. The two lie dead in the street for three days while the whole world throws a partyto celebrate. The two houses can not all possibly lie dead in the street.
Hi ChristianaWell God clearly says they are his witnesses.............Now I agree with you clearly there are two individuals in jerusalem that lay dead in the street.However We have two things clearly used to describe these witnesses that CANNOT be two individuals..................because we are also told they are Two Candlesticks which means two churches...........So we seem to have a conflict a contradiction......................well you and I both know that Gods word does not contradict itself DOES IT.So instead of assuming That God's plain description of these two and Gods plain description of what these two symbols mean is wrong should we not look to scripture to explain how theses groups could be looked at as two individulas..How can it go from groups to a group of two?Would you not agree that this is the way to go?
Yes they are representive of the the two churches (branches) Judah and Israelthey most certainly are two individuals Trees are often symbolic of men There is nothing in scripture that says they are the two groups. And we are dealing with the Entire World its impossible for two branches to be lying deadPS trees can be sybolic for menRev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.These two wittness's are in the spirit of Elijah God tells us this because he has given us a type to understand this in the story of Elijah and Jezebel (1&2Kings)read of Elijah and Jezebel ....When you do so understand that Jezebel is a type for the Harlot in Rev. The harlot is the religious system of Antichrist. Notice just like the two wittness's Elijah has the same powers to shut up the rain, bring fire ect. he is even raised up as the two wittness will be. This is our type .... Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse
Hi ChristianaI am not denying there are two witnesses lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.To do so would be to deny the plain words of God.By The same token to deny that these two are described as two churches and the Two Houses of the Hebrews would also be to deny the plain word of God.Now your claim these two come in the Spirit of Elijah is just not in the text............and to top that off you seem to be forgetting Jesus clearly said that prophecy was already fulfilled.10: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.So what are we to say Jesus was lying or did not know what he was saying............We must accept God's word Elijah has already come.Now I do not dispute that they do similar things to Elijah but the plagues they control are also similar to Moses.I digress..............Scripture is very clear what these two symbols mean.So we need to look at scripture harder to find the answer to this...........Would you agree that the Great Tribulation is a sort of repeat of what happened in the Apostles day.Look at this verse.9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.And hereJms:5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.So clearly there are two groups here there is the saints that are dead and under the alter IE the early rain....................and there is the latter group those who will be killed as their brethern were IE the Latter rain.So perhaps there is a clue in this first group of martyred saints as to how we end up with just two individuals in a city witnessing for Jesus before Jesus arrives.Can you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
(Just The Facts;61661)
Hi ChristianaI am not denying there are two witnesses lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.To do so would be to deny the plain words of God.By The same token to deny that these two are described as two churches and the Two Houses of the Hebrews would also be to deny the plain word of God.Now your claim these two come in the Spirit of Elijah is just not in the text............and to top that off you seem to be forgetting Jesus clearly said that prophecy was already fulfilled.10: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.So what are we to say Jesus was lying or did not know what he was saying............We must accept God's word Elijah has already come.Now I do not dispute that they do similar things to Elijah but the plagues they control are also similar to Moses.I digress..............Scripture is very clear what these two symbols mean.So we need to look at scripture harder to find the answer to this...........Would you agree that the Great Tribulation is a sort of repeat of what happened in the Apostles day.Look at this verse.9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.And hereJms:5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.So clearly there are two groups here there is the saints that are dead and under the alter IE the early rain....................and there is the latter group those who will be killed as their brethern were IE the Latter rain.So perhaps there is a clue in this first group of martyred saints as to how we end up with just two individuals in a city witnessing for Jesus before Jesus arrives.Can you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
John the Baptist is not Elijah. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.
Hi ChristianaI am not denying there are two witnesses lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem.To do so would be to deny the plain words of God.By The same token to deny that these two are described as two churches and the Two Houses of the Hebrews would also be to deny the plain word of God.Now your claim these two come in the Spirit of Elijah is just not in the text............and to top that off you seem to be forgetting Jesus clearly said that prophecy was already fulfilled.10: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.So what are we to say Jesus was lying or did not know what he was saying............We must accept God's word Elijah has already come.Now I do not dispute that they do similar things to Elijah but the plagues they control are also similar to Moses.I digress..............Scripture is very clear what these two symbols mean.So we need to look at scripture harder to find the answer to this...........Would you agree that the Great Tribulation is a sort of repeat of what happened in the Apostles day.Look at this verse.9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.And hereJms:5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.So clearly there are two groups here there is the saints that are dead and under the alter IE the early rain....................and there is the latter group those who will be killed as their brethern were IE the Latter rain.So perhaps there is a clue in this first group of martyred saints as to how we end up with just two individuals in a city witnessing for Jesus before Jesus arrives.Can you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
John the Baptist is not Elijah. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.
HiI never said he was .......what I said was the prophecy saying Elijah must come first as reffered to by Christina has been fulfilled.It is not me who says it was fulfilled it is Jesus who says It.10: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already,and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.Are you saying Jesus was mistaken???????
(Just The Facts;61664)
HiI never said he was .......what I said was the prophecy saying Elijah must come first as reffered to by Christina has been fulfilled.It is not me who says it was fulfilled it is Jesus who says It.10: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already,and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.Are you saying Jesus was mistaken???????
No, I'm not calling Him a liar.I just think Malachi 4:6 is talking about the prophet Elijah to come. Not the spirit of Elijah to come.
HiI never said he was .......what I said was the prophecy saying Elijah must come first as reffered to by Christina has been fulfilled.It is not me who says it was fulfilled it is Jesus who says It.10: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already,and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.Are you saying Jesus was mistaken???????
No, I'm not calling Him a liar.I just think Malachi 4:6 is talking about the prophet Elijah to come. Not the spirit of Elijah to come.
HiI am sorry Jordan jesus does not say John the baptist is in the Spirit of Elijah He says in very plain words that John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy.Now we either accept jesus words or we put them to no avail in order to follow a doctrine taught by men that this prophecy still needs to be fulfilled.So do you follow the Lamb where ever he goes or do you follow the doctrines of men
(Just The Facts;61669)
HiI am sorry Jordan jesus does not say John the baptist is in the Spirit of Elijah He says in very plain words that John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy.Now we either accept jesus words or we put them to no avail in order to follow a doctrine taught by men that this prophecy still needs to be fulfilled.So do you follow the Lamb where ever he goes or do you follow the doctrines of men
I can't find a scripture as I don't remember at all... but I do believe Elijah did not die yet, but seriously God told Elisabeth to name his son John. So how can John be Elijah... so I would quote the below...Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
HiI am sorry Jordan jesus does not say John the baptist is in the Spirit of Elijah He says in very plain words that John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy.Now we either accept jesus words or we put them to no avail in order to follow a doctrine taught by men that this prophecy still needs to be fulfilled.So do you follow the Lamb where ever he goes or do you follow the doctrines of men
I can't find a scripture as I don't remember at all... but I do believe Elijah did not die yet, but seriously God told Elisabeth to name his son John. So how can John be Elijah... so I would quote the below...Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hiyes I know Elijah was carried away in a Chariot of fire and seen no more.9: And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.10: And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.11: And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.Now it is asummed he was alive but it does not say that.................In fact it clearly says he spirit then rested on his son15: And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha.But all this has absolutly NOTHING TO DO WITH the fact Jesus clearly states this prophecy was fulfilled.Elijah did return and they did not recognize him.You are putting to no avail the very plain words of Jesus that state this return was fulfilled and instead trying to use the doctrines of men.............IE Darby and Lindsay and LaHaye and others to ignore the fulfilment that Jesus plainly states happened.So let me ask you this in very blunt formDid or did not Jesus say this prophecy was fulfilled.
Mark 9:11 "And they asked Him saying, "Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?"Jesus disciples are now asking Him why the scribes and prophets have stated that Elijah must come before Christ? They are still trying to sort all the information out. They still don't realize that there is a second advent coming. However they are starting to realize that Christ will be crucified and rise again on the third day.Mark 9:12 "And He answered and told them, "Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that He must suffer many things, and be set at nought."Jesus Christ is trying to let His disciples know that it is written in the Old Testament that these things must come to pass exactly as they are written. At the first Advent, He would be crucified and be raised from the dead, and then before the second advent Elijah would return and turn the hearts of the people to their fathers.Mark 9:13 "But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."We know that Jesus is referring here to John the Baptist, the forerunner of Christ, and Herod and his people killed John the Baptist the same as they will do to Christ. They beheaded John the Baptist. John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.Matthew 11:13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."Matthew 11:14 "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."IF Christ /Johns message had been received John would have served to come in the spirit of Elijah (he would have served to fulfill this prochecy) however as we know Christ was not received except by a few until after he was killed so Mal. 4:5 goes unfulfilled Matthew 11:15 "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
Hi ChristinaThat is a good dance but youare jumping here and there and not dealing with the scripture all in one place.10: And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?11: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.12: But I say unto you, That Elias is come already,and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.13: Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. In Both Matt and Luke Jesus says Elijah has come the prophecy is fulfilled. In Fact in Luke it is recorded that he equates his prophesied suffering that will be fulfilled with the prophecy of the return of Elijah and then says Elijah has come.The Reality is Jesus says the prophecy was fulfilled and you can twist and squirm trying to save your doctrine that one of the witnesses is Elijah but it is just not backed by Scripture. [/SIZE] So once again Does or Does not Jesus say this prophecy was fulfilled. Now Christina you did not even address my question a few posts back.................. So perhaps there is a clue in this first group of martyred saints as to how we end up with just two individuals in a city witnessing for Jesus before Jesus arrives. Can you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
Matthew 11:14 "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."Was Christ message received during his life time By the Masses ????????????? If the answer is no then the prochecy is not fulfilled you either get or you dont Regaurdless the two witness are not groups of people but individuals and no where does scripture actually say they are groups its a matter of how one interrupts When all the prophecy comes together with our Example of Elijah performing the same miracles the evidence mounts up. Please explain how you think it is that all Judah and Israel lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days while the world celebrates
Hi Chritina No you are twisting what was being said .....................he is saying if you can accept it John the Baptist was fulfillment of this prophecy.[/SIZE] Then latter when talking to the Apostles he tells them in no uncertain terms that John was fulfillment of that prophecy. I did not and am not saying all Judah and Israel lie dead in the streets i have said very plainly that there are two individuals that lie dead in the streets. I am saying you can not just ignore these two symbols no more than a person can ignore that they lay dead in the streets. they are the Two Olive Trees IE the Two house and the Two Candle Sticks IE Two churches. As I pointed out this is a repeat of the early rain of the first Martyrdom so Can you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
tomwebster
New Member
- Dec 11, 2006
- 2,041
- 107
- 0
- 76
(Just The Facts;61717)
Hi Chritina No you are twisting what was being said .....................he is saying if you can accept it John the Baptist was fulfillment of this prophecy.[/SIZE] Then latter when talking to the Apostles he tells them in no uncertain terms that John was fulfillment of that prophecy. I did not and am not saying all Judah and Israel lie dead in the streets i have said very plainly that there are two individuals that lie dead in the streets. I am saying you can not just ignore these two symbols no more than a person can ignore that they lay dead in the streets. they are the Two Olive Trees IE the Two house and the Two Candle Sticks IE Two churches. As I pointed out this is a repeat of the early rain of the first Martyrdom so Can you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
Do you think writing in bigger type is going to help you win your argument?
Hi Chritina No you are twisting what was being said .....................he is saying if you can accept it John the Baptist was fulfillment of this prophecy.[/SIZE] Then latter when talking to the Apostles he tells them in no uncertain terms that John was fulfillment of that prophecy. I did not and am not saying all Judah and Israel lie dead in the streets i have said very plainly that there are two individuals that lie dead in the streets. I am saying you can not just ignore these two symbols no more than a person can ignore that they lay dead in the streets. they are the Two Olive Trees IE the Two house and the Two Candle Sticks IE Two churches. As I pointed out this is a repeat of the early rain of the first Martyrdom so Can you think of an example of Two individuals going to a City before Jesus arrives.................from the first group of Martyrs IE the days of the Apostles.
Do you think writing in bigger type is going to help you win your argument?
then what are we arguing about I agree they are two individuals ...two olive trees and the candlesticks are the churchesThe only thing I disagee about is that John was Elijah
Similar threads
