The tyranny of doctrinal unity - "Join or die."

[St. SteVen]

A follow-up to the two previous topics:

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?
- Does God only speak to professional clergy?
- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation?

- Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?
- Would only one of those interpretations be right?
- Thus making all others false?
- How do we determine which is right?
- Might God use a scripture to speak differently to different readers?

- Is it tyranny for a religious institution to dictate interpretation?
- Do you have the freedom to disagree?
- What happens if you disagree?

 

[Gottservant]

If Jesus says to do something, in principle there is at least one way to do it.

If believers ignore having even one way to do what was asked, they are lukewarm and will be spit out.

Now if there is one thing to do, and the Holy Spirit has not asked you to do it, there is still time.

But it behooves us to be watchful, when we have time, that we do not forget the thing that was asked - this is worse, than to be spit out.

 

[St. SteVen]

If Jesus says to do something, in principle there is at least one way to do it.

If believers ignore having even one way to do what was asked, they are lukewarm and will be spit out.

Now if there is one thing to do, and the Holy Spirit has not asked you to do it, there is still time.

But it behooves us to be watchful, when we have time, that we do not forget the thing that was asked - this is worse, than to be spit out.

How would answer the individual questions in the OP?

 

[Windmillcharge]

Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?
- Does God only speak to professional clergy?
- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation

Where does it say that God only speaks to a " priesthood " ?

What is meant by ' unity '?
Is it only one physical organisation or could it be like God is, a spiritual unity?

What is it that separates Christians fro each other, is it not traditions and man made ideas.

 

[St. SteVen]

What is meant by ' unity '?

For the purpose of this topic "unity" is doctrinal unity. (per the topic title)
But... that is also what is being questioned.

 

[marks]

A follow-up to the two previous topics:

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?
- Does God only speak to professional clergy?
- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation?

- Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?
- Would only one of those interpretations be right?
- Thus making all others false?
- How do we determine which is right?
- Might God use a scripture to speak differently to different readers?

- Is it tyranny for a religious institution to dictate interpretation?
- Do you have the freedom to disagree?
- What happens if you disagree?

I think of this more like, God intends each of us to know Him personally, and that each of us will have a unique relationship with Him.

We all have Bibles, we all have the Holy Spirit, and we all have different levels of understanding and interest. We've been given teachers to teach us, and there is a spiritual gift of teaching.

I believe we are to submit to the Word of God, and we are to submit to our teachers.

"Meat is for the mature, who be reason of use have their senses excercised to discern good and evil", something like that. Do what God tells you to do the best you can understand and submit and obey, and in so doing, you will learn what He desires of you.

To answer your question more directly in the sense you are asking, in disputing over what is true, I believe the Bible says a certain thing, though God uses it personally to address us personally. And how do we know? We just go with what it says. But many think the words mean other allegorical things, and then all bets are off.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

God intends each of us to know Him personally, and that each of us will have a unique relationship with Him.

That's solid gold right there, Thanks.

 

[Gottservant]

A follow-up to the two previous topics:

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?

Within myself, yes (for others, not within me, no)

- Does God only speak to professional clergy?

No

- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation?

They are to be regarded at a distance, the Bible is not the immediate basis for acceptance

- Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?

At what time? In Heaven? Yes. In Hell? No.

- Would only one of those interpretations be right?

In Heaven? No. In Hell? Yes.

- Thus making all others false?

Does Heaven make Hell false? Does Hell make Heaven false?

- How do we determine which is right?

Context (and to a certain extent "reasoning")

- Might God use a scripture to speak differently to different readers?

There are different nations, after all.

- Is it tyranny for a religious institution to dictate interpretation?

I would prefer the word "oppression", since all tyranny has the one oppression

- Do you have the freedom to disagree?

Freedom to choose between agreement and disagreement

- What happens if you disagree?

Disagreement is of no consequence (to me), since - as the Golden Rule dictates - I always look for a way to agree: I suppose what happens if I disagree is that I suffer, until I can find a way to agree.

 

[face2face]

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?

Looks like you are running a survey? Might be good to advise if your plan is using this data in some other format?

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

How would answer the individual questions in the OP?

Doctrines have become IDOL's. The "join or die" mentality is not of the Spirit. There is not such fervor over 1+1 = 2.

I often point out that math is a science and like all science, conclusions are opinions, objective opinions. Our society is dumbed down but education certification up. People have lost the ability to even identify properly the difference between an objective opinion from a subjective opinion. One hint is if you have to pump it full of emotion to make it seem more correct, it is probably a subjective opinion.

How do you react when people get their math doctrine wrong? You know their logic is in error when they claim 1 +1 ≠2. Yet, you don't write thread after thread on a website about it, right?

Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?

I believe this is beautifully answered in Hebrews 4:12, the word of God is alive. I've experienced the same verse that I've known for years hitting me anew imbued with new meaning, a different interpretation. St Augustine wrote of this in his book, Confessions. However, I would not say these experience take on the form of new doctrine.

As I wrote before about the definition of doctrine - one sense being synonymous with dogma, which has a sense tied to "accepted or wide spread opinion" - one will find it difficult to even justify divine intent to have doctrines. Yet, to be practical, I realize the claim of taking a verse "out of context" can be taken to the extreme of only not applying unless you quote the entire Bible.

Doctrines serve to succinctly answer the question, "what do you believe?" And this answer drives the answers to all the other questions in the OP.

 

[Patrick1966]

A follow-up to the two previous topics:

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?
- Does God only speak to professional clergy?
- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation?

- Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?
- Would only one of those interpretations be right?
- Thus making all others false?
- How do we determine which is right?
- Might God use a scripture to speak differently to different readers?

- Is it tyranny for a religious institution to dictate interpretation?
- Do you have the freedom to disagree?
- What happens if you disagree?

If you want to hear false doctrine, go to church. LOL.

I DO listen to various preachers on YouTube but I have yet to find ONE with whom I am in 100% agreement. I was a big fan of Pastor John MacArthur because he immediately went into scripture and explained many things. He helped me to realize the false doctrines of Catholicism. However, John is also an "eternal Hell" preacher and also thinks that all Catholics are damned and so I don't listen to much of him anymore.

I enjoy doctrinal discussions with some here, but most get angry and lash out, for some reason.

The only doctrine one needs to believe and follow was spelled out by Jesus in the Great Commandment. Love God, love one another. That's it. You'll never get into an argument with a fellow Christian of ANY denomination if you stick with that.

 

[Patrick1966]

What is it that separates Christians fro each other...

Ego. Pride. Selfishness.

 

[Patrick1966]

I think of this more like, God intends each of us to know Him personally, and that each of us will have a unique relationship with Him.

Amen brother. I believe that is the meaning of life right there, to get close to God.

 

[St. SteVen]

I believe this is beautifully answered in Hebrews 4:12, the word of God is alive. I've experienced the same verse that I've known for years hitting me anew imbued with new meaning, a different interpretation. St Augustine wrote of this in his book, Confessions. However, I would not say these experience take on the form of new doctrine.

That's a great point.
A reading might speak differently even to the same reader at a different time.

And you have probably experienced this. A word in a passage stands out that takes you somewhere else entirely.
Knowing it was God directing your thoughts away in that moment. It had little to do with the actual text.

Doctrines serve to succinctly answer the question, "what do you believe?" And this answer drives the answers to all the other questions in the OP.

Right. That is the purpose of doctrine, whether we got it right or not.
From that perspective, doctrinal unity seems absurd.
Many have the attitude that doctrine is carved in granite. (by the finger of God)

 

[St. SteVen]

If you want to hear false doctrine, go to church. LOL.

Ouch. (but so true)
Great post BTW.

I DO listen to various preachers on YouTube but I have yet to find ONE with whom I am in 100% agreement.

I see that as a sign of some maturity. Discernment.

I enjoy doctrinal discussions with some here, but most get angry and lash out, for some reason.

Some take their doctrine/dogma so personally, that they view disagreement as a personal attack.
They may behave like a cornered animal, clawing and biting.

The only doctrine one needs to believe and follow was spelled out by Jesus in the Great Commandment. Love God, love one another. That's it. You'll never get into an argument with a fellow Christian of ANY denomination if you stick with that.

AMEN

 

[Wrangler]

From that perspective, doctrinal unity seems absurd.
Many have the attitude that doctrine is carved in granite. (by the finger of God)

Exactly, they have substituted a relationship with the living God with the IDOL of doctrinal purity.

There is a way to live that I know is right. And I should add in all due humility, right for me. I share this with people. Most reject it in practice, not theory. Not because they are able to refute the rightness of it, but because they lack ambition.

Living right takes work and is not as easy as living wrong. Living wrong is going with the flow, that flows you to waste. Cheer for the modern day bread and circus. The book 1984 explained TPTB tell us X is our enemy and Y is our ally; then they flip and we are not supposed to notice.

We are told Russia is 'the bad guy.' What would the mischievous do in our own land without 'the bad guy.'

 

[amadeus]

A follow-up to the two previous topics:

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?
- Does God only speak to professional clergy?
- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation?

- Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?
- Would only one of those interpretations be right?
- Thus making all others false?
- How do we determine which is right?
- Might God use a scripture to speak differently to different readers?

- Is it tyranny for a religious institution to dictate interpretation?
- Do you have the freedom to disagree?
- What happens if you disagree?

Mt 24:23	Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mt 24:24	For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mt 24:25	Behold, I have told you before.
Mt 24:26	Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

 

[amadeus]

A follow-up to the two previous topics:

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

- Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to minister to you personally?

Who are His sheep? How about the ones who hear His voice?

Joh 10:4

And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

How does His voice sound? To the one dull of hearing it makes perhaps no sound at all:

Mt 13:14	And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mt 13:15	For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But then...

Ac 2:2

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

- Does God only speak to professional clergy?

Who was it that heard from God when it was time for Jesus to be born of Mary?

- Are laity not to be trusted with biblical interpretation?

Who is to be trusted with such?

Ac 2:17	And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Ac 2:18	And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

- Can there be more than one interpretation of a scripture?
- Would only one of those interpretations be right?
- Thus making all others false?
- How do we determine which is right?
- Might God use a scripture to speak differently to different readers?

Ac 2:8	And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Ac 2:9	Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Ac 2:10	Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Ac 2:11	Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

- Is it tyranny for a religious institution to dictate interpretation?
- Do you have the freedom to disagree?
- What happens if you disagree?

If you speak out by the Holy Ghost, who can say, nay? Yet, what is it that we see or hear in so many [most?] supposedly churches?

 

[Windmillcharge]

For the purpose of this topic "unity" is doctrinal unity. (per the topic title)
But... that is also what is being questioned.

Then what doctrine would you say is of first importance?
What is of secondary importance?
What is of third importance?
What is of no importance?

Do we all have to accept the assumption of Mary, the physical body of God, that Jesus is merely a God, that only true Christians speak in tounges etc etc etc

How do you decide what is true Christian doctrine?

 

[Windmillcharge]

Ego. Pride. Selfishness.

As Paul wrote to the philippians
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather in humility value others above yourself, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of others.