The unforgiveable sin ?

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Joshua☩

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Protestants played no role in the Hebrew Bible. Look at the Hebrew Bible today and tell me how many books are in it.

Stranger
Exactly. The Hebrew Bible of today is different from the canon that was used at the time of Christ. The Hebrew canon prior to the 2nd Century A.D. contained all of the books found in the Greek Old Testament.
It was only in the 2nd Century that the Jews closed their canon and eliminated the Deuterocanonical books, as these books were being used extensively to establish Christian doctrine.
Prior to this, the Jews used exactly the same Bible as Catholics do, minus the New Testament of course.

Your claim that the Hebrew Bible of today somehow invalidates the biblical canon that has been in use since before Christ's birth is ridiculous.
 

Stranger

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Pay attention, Stranger.
I've already told you that Sacred Tradition has been passed down by the Apostles. I even gave you two perfect examples of this.

NOT
everything they taught was written down in Scripture, as I amply demonstrated by showing you 2 Thess. 2:15, where Paul says to hold fast to what they taught WHETHER BY an oral statement - OR BY a letter. I also educated you about the 1st century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles), wherein Baptism is meticulously described.

As for your total confusion about Sacred Tradition and minor traditions - they have nothing to do with each other.

Finally, as to the 7 Deuterocanonical Books - YOUR claim that the Church added them during the Protestant Revolt is the most ignorant and asinine thing you have claimed so far. The Council of Trent simply CLOSED the canon. It didn't create it.

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393). At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the council of Trent in the 16th century because of the Scriptural perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

Yes, I know you want to educate me, but I reject your teaching. Which means you have not 'educated' anyone.

You gave no examples of 'sacred tradition' in Scripture as described by the Roman church.

The 'traditions' of (2Thess 2:15) are the very things Paul was preaching and teaching at the time. They were not a grab bag of things to use at ones disposal whenever they felt the need. Which is all Roman 'tradition' is. We have the inspired writings in the New Testament. That is the traditions that were taught. Nothing outside of that is to be taught.

The Council of Trent neither opened or closed the canon. Your list of Roman synods does nothing to prove the canon. Rome added the apocrypha to their Bible. They haven't been able to add it to the Protestants Bible. Thus Rome has added 'tradition'and 'apocrypha' to the Scriptures as their authority.

Stranger
 

Joshua☩

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Yes, I know you want to educate me, but I reject your teaching. Which means you have not 'educated' anyone.
So you only accept information if it conforms to your preconceived beliefs?

You gave no examples of 'sacred tradition' in Scripture as described by the Roman church.
Both I and BreadOfLife listed several traditions found in the complete Bible.


The Council of Trent neither opened or closed the canon.
This statement proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. It is an established fact amongst Catholics and Protestants alike that the Council of Trent closed the Catholic canon in response to Protestant objections to certain books. It is not a matter of opinion, it is fact.
 

Stranger

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Exactly. The Hebrew Bible of today is different from the canon that was used at the time of Christ. The Hebrew canon prior to the 2nd Century A.D. contained all of the books found in the Greek Old Testament.
It was only in the 2nd Century that the Jews closed their canon and eliminated the Deuterocanonical books, as these books were being used extensively to establish Christian doctrine.
Prior to this, the Jews used exactly the same Bible as Catholics do, minus the New Testament of course.

Your claim that the Hebrew Bible of today somehow invalidates the biblical canon that has been in use since before Christ's birth is ridiculous.

Not so. The Jews of Palestine never accepted the apocryphal books as Scripture. Their Bible today is the same as the Protestant Old Testament.

Protestants were not around to make that decision. Thus, as I said, you can't blame Luther for everything.

Stranger
 

Joshua☩

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Not so. The Jews of Palestine never accepted the apocryphal books as Scripture. Their Bible today is the same as the Protestant Old Testament.
Come on, do you really believe the things that you are saying or are you just trolling us? You keep saying no to things that are indisputable facts accepted by both Catholic and Protestant scholars.
The Hebrew Bible of today is the same as the Protestant Old Testament, but the Hebrew Bible of 1 A.D. was not.
 

Stranger

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So you only accept information if it conforms to your preconceived beliefs?


Both I and BreadOfLife listed several traditions found in the complete Bible.



This statement proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. It is an established fact amongst Catholics and Protestants alike that the Council of Trent closed the Catholic canon in response to Protestant objections to certain books. It is not a matter of opinion, it is fact.

My pre-conceived beliefs are based on my previous study. Thus until you or others are able to provide some new information which I haven't heard yet, then there is no reason for me to be educated by you or others. Thus far you haven't done that. So, yes, I just like you and everyone else have pre-conceived beliefs.

Your bible, not mine. Funny how they are all in the apocryphal books. Those rejected.

The council of Trent or any other council had no authority to close any canon of Scripture.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Come on, do you really believe the things that you are saying or are you just trolling us? You keep saying no to things that are indisputable facts accepted by both Catholic and Protestant scholars.
The Hebrew Bible of today is the same as the Protestant Old Testament, but the Hebrew Bible of 1 A.D. was not.

Yes it was. The Palestinian Jews never accepted the apocryphal books. How many times do you want me to say it.

Stranger
 

Joshua☩

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Yes it was. The Palestinian Jews never accepted the apocryphal books. How many times do you want me to say it.
You can say it as many times as you want, it won't change the fact that you are arguing against all accepted Biblical scholarship.
 

The Good Path

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The unforgivable sin:

When God's Elect are delivered up before Antichrist(Satan) and not allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through them.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

It is during that "same hour" when Satan is here, the hour of temptation when the Holy Spirit shall also be present and evident before men, that the unforgivable sin can be committed.
 
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Stranger

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You can say it as many times as you want, it won't change the fact that you are arguing against all accepted Biblical scholarship.

I only say it as many times as you ask. Asking over and over again won't change my answer.

What 'accepted Biblical scholarship'? If you're talking about Romanist scholars, then yes I argue against them. When you say 'accepted', what you really mean is those you accept.

Stranger
 

twinc

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so what was this topic actually about was it is the H/S responsible for division, dissent, differences, disputes, contradictions , confusion and chaos and is it unforgiveable blasphemy to say these are the fruits of the H/S - twinc
 

buddyt

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Jesus tells in Luke 12:10,11,12 exactly what it is. He said--And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man it shall be forgiven him : but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven. And when they bring you unto the synagogues and unto magistrates and powers take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer or what ye shall say. For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought say.
This could happen at a time as when the Antichrist is here. When you are brought before the synagogue of Satan you are to allow the Holy Spirit to speak through you such as was during the days of Pentecost. Every language will come from your mouth for the world to hear.
 

twinc

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all clever stuff except not so clever as to have past notice that this was not addressed to us but to the Apostles and early disciples - there is really no possibility of us being brought unto the synagogues or magistrates - twinc
 

twinc

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directly no, indirectly yes - directly He speaks to us via His Church[Lk 10:16/Jn 13:20] - this is why sola scripture has a missing vital ingredient - twinc
 

buddyt

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Unforgivable Sin

As it is written in Luke 12:10-12 Jesus speaking of the end times when you may be brought before Satan's synagogue you are to allow the Holly Spirit to speak through you. To not allow this is unforgivable. There is no Rapture, true Christians will still be here to speak against these synagogues.
 

twinc

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presumably it will be a united voice not a divided, confused voice - twinc
 

lforrest

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Unforgivable Sin

As it is written in Luke 12:10-12 Jesus speaking of the end times when you may be brought before Satan's synagogue you are to allow the Holly Spirit to speak through you. To not allow this is unforgivable. There is no Rapture, true Christians will still be here to speak against these synagogues.

If this is the case was Peter condemned for denying Jesus 3 times?
 

Jun2u

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that was then - why not update and live in the present - so after all these centuries of claimed inspiration, guidance and indwelling by the H/S the fruits are division,deceit,deception,despair,divergence,differences,disputes,confusion, chaos - if ththis is not unforgiveable blasphemy what is - twinc
 

Jun2u

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I did not know Mt. 12:31-32 and Mr. 3:30 have been abrogated by God. In fact, the opposite is true! Read again Post #44 very, very carefully for there I have defined the meaning of the unpardonable sin.

There is a principle Jesus set forth in verse 32 and drives home the point that there is NO forgiveness for speaking against the Holy Spirit in this world neither in the world to come. In other words, there will not be any forgiveness for the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit forever, which is contrary to what you’ve said, “that was then – why not update and live in the present.”

Division, deceit, deception, despair, divergence, differences, disputes, confusion, and chaos – these are not as you supposed “unforgivable blasphemy” rather these things are more like grieving the Holy Spirit.

People just don’t really know how to read and understand scriptures because they come with their own preconceived ideas instead of trusting what they read. They don’t know how to connect the dots. They will take a verse here and there and make conclusions and not verifying if their work harmonizes with the rest of the scriptures that speaks directly to that particular subject.

To God Be The Glory