The unforgiveable sin ?

[tabletalk]

As I already schooled you - the demons know EXACTLY who Jesus is.
They reject Him anyway - in the same way YOU do.

BoL: In post #155 you stated the above to Heb.13:8 , accusing him of rejecting Jesus, as do the demons . Are we allowed to do that on this forum?

Christianity Board Rules: "Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians."

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have showed you in your own Catechism's what the Roman church believes. Yet you show me nothing except your spouting off. So, show me what you are saying, either through your catetchism's or the Scripture.

As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with traditions as long as they are supported by the Scriptures. But when tradition trumps Scripture, then it is heresy.

Stranger

The quotes from the Catechism you presented did nothing but support my argument all along.
Scripture itself puts Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture (2 Thess. 2:15) - whether YOU like it or not.

As for Sacred Tradition "trumping" Scripture - it can't - and neither can Scripture "trump" Sacred Tradition.
They are in perfect harmony - unlike the almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions of Protestantism . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

BoL: In post #155 you stated the above to Heb.13:8 , accusing him of rejecting Jesus, as do the demons . Are we allowed to do that on this forum?

Christianity Board Rules: "Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians."

I didn't "identify" him with anything.
I simply pointed out an observation about his rejection of the Word of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I reject Him? How so? You just agreed with me that demons know Jesus but reject Him. and God knows who belongs to Him, don't worry.

Your rejection of Jesus is the rejection of the Word of God.
Jesus is the Word (John 1:1).

You have thus far claimed that simply "believing" in God is what Rev. 3:5 refers to as "overcoming." You are DEAD wrong because you cherry-pick the Scriptures instead of reading them in CONTEXT.
The first 4 verses that precede verse 5 are about works and obedience. The "overcoming" in verse 5 correlates perfectly to this.

The Greek word used here for "overcome" is νικαο nik-ah'-o which means "CONQUER, PREVAIL, to be VICTORIOUS.
This is talking about endurance of faith, works and obedience.

By contrast - the demons spoken of in James 2:19 know exactly WHO Jesus is and they believe who He is and they FEAR Him.
They have not "overcome" because they are not obedient.

Here's a little advice, my incredibly confused friend - instead of simply quoting Scripture - LEARN what it means . . .

 

[epostle1]

I didn't quote you. I asked you a question: Demons believe Jesus is their savior? Do demons have salvation?

The question is so stupid it doesn't deserve an answer.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I didn't "identify" him with anything.
I simply pointed out an observation about his rejection of the Word of God.

What am i rejecting if you agree with me?

By contrast - the demons spoken of in James 2:19 know exactly WHO Jesus is and they believe who He is and they FEAR Him.
They have not "overcome" because they are not obedient.

No BOL, demons do not overcome because they haven't accepted Jesus as savior. It has nothing to do with obedience. Are demons born of God? No, they are not. Demons will always sin and will always be considered the evil one....

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:4-5 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.


1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

The question is so stupid it doesn't deserve an answer.

Is this how you defend your doctrine? In 3rd grade i remember calling a kid stupid on the playground at recess. Demons do not have the ability to believe in a savior, humans do. this is not obvious to you?

 

[dorian37grey]

I didn't quote you. I asked you a question: Demons believe Jesus is their savior? Do demons have salvation?

yes; the demons believe ... but ... what they don't have is a kinsman redeemer

Jesus came to earth as a man ( not as an angel)
Jesus died a mans death ; ( not an angels death)

 

[BreadOfLife]

What am i rejecting if you agree with me?


No BOL, demons do not overcome because they haven't accepted Jesus as savior. It has nothing to do with obedience. Are demons born of God? No, they are not. Demons will always sin and will always be considered the evil one....

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:4-5 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.


1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

YOU'VE been saying all along that all you have to do is "believe" to overcome.
NOW, you're changing your tune and saying that you have to "accept Jesus as your Savior" - which is NOT in the Bible, by the way.

Overcoming in Rev. 3:5 requires FAR more than just believing - it requires obedience.
Once again, you've failed to understand the CONTEXT of the verse.

Just admit that you were wrong and move on . . .

 

[Stranger]

The quotes from the Catechism you presented did nothing but support my argument all along.
Scripture itself puts Sacred Tradition ON PAR with Scripture (2 Thess. 2:15) - whether YOU like it or not.

As for Sacred Tradition "trumping" Scripture - it can't - and neither can Scripture "trump" Sacred Tradition.
They are in perfect harmony - unlike the almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions of Protestantism . . .

Again, you neither show or prove anything. You simply dictate. A Romanist characteristic to be sure.

I have told you, nothing wrong with tradition if it doesn't conflict with Scripture. But Romanism has it backwards. Tradition dictates over Scripture. Which I have showed and you fail to respond to..

Your tradition and Scripture are in harmony only because you can change Scripture to meet your tradition. Quite handy.

Stranger

 

[Heb 13:8]

yes; the demons believe ... but ... what they don't have is a kinsman redeemer

Jesus came to earth as a man ( not as an angel)
Jesus died a mans death ; ( not an angels death)

Yes.

NOW, you're changing your tune and saying that you have to "accept Jesus as your Savior" - which is NOT in the Bible, by the way.

If you don't accept Jesus as your Savior, how will you get to heaven? Through Alla?

Overcoming in Rev. 3:5 requires FAR more than just believing - it requires obedience.
Once again, you've failed to understand the CONTEXT of the verse.

Who is victorious? Read it again BOL..

1 John 5:4-5 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 3:5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, you neither show or prove anything. You simply dictate. A Romanist characteristic to be sure.

I have told you, nothing wrong with tradition if it doesn't conflict with Scripture. But Romanism has it backwards. Tradition dictates over Scripture. Which I have showed and you fail to respond to..

Your tradition and Scripture are in harmony only because you can change Scripture to meet your tradition. Quite handy.

Stranger

There is not one Sacred Tradition that "trumps" Scripture - or vice versa.
You lose because you can't provide one, single example.

Oh, and all of your "Romanist" manure simply illustrates your moronically immature need to insult in the face of ZERO evidence.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If you don't accept Jesus as your Savior, how will you get to heaven? Through Alla?

Scripture never makes this claim - so why do YOU??

Who is victorious? Read it again BOL..

1 John 5:4-5 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 3:5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Why don't you post the 4 verses that PRECEDE Rev. 5 so we can see the CONTEXT??
You won't post them because they prove you wrong.

Rev. 5:1-5
“To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your DEEDS; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your DEEDS unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will WALK with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Those who "overcome" in this passage are those who DO the will of God and WALK the Christian life - not just "believe".
They endured in faith and obedience to the will of God.

Even the DEMONS just "believe" as YOU do (James 2:19).
You need to endure in faith and obedience to God to overcome . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

Scripture never makes this claim - so why do YOU??

Then how do you get saved?

Rom 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Why don't you post the 4 verses that PRECEDE Rev. 5 so we can see the CONTEXT??
You won't post them because they prove you wrong.

Ok, so let's ignore what I said about Rev 3:5 and go to chapter 5. Who is found worthy but God? Are you BOL?

Rev 5:2-4 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.

To the Church in Sardis in Rev 3, I do believe Jesus will come like a thief to BOL because you deny the Rev 12 great sign in the heavens, no? http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/23596-92317-rev-125-x-etc/

Jesus comes like a thief to the religious..

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

 

[Heb 13:8]

1 Thess 5:4-7 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others (loipos), who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

Rev 20:5-6 (The rest (loipos) of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

loipos: the rest, the remaining
Original Word: λοιπός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: loipos
Phonetic Spelling: (loy-poy')
Short Definition: left, left behind, the remainder
Definition: left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then how do you get saved?
Rom 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

We are saved by the blood of Christ.

Scripture NEVER prescribes "accepting" Him as "personal Lord and Savior".
Jesus said that a person must be BAPTIZED and believe (Mark 16:16) to be saved. This requires obedience of faith - NOT just belief.

As for using Rom. 10:9-10 as your criteria for salvation - why don't you read what Jesus says in Matt. 7:21-23 about people who just call on His name:
Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES the will of my Father in heaven.

Ok, so let's ignore what I said about Rev 3:5 and go to chapter 5. Who is found worthy but God? Are you BOL?

Rev 5:2-4 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.

To the Church in Sardis in Rev 3, I do believe Jesus will come like a thief to BOL because you deny the Rev 12 great sign in the heavens, no? 9/23/17, Rev 12:5, X etc..

Jesus comes like a thief to the religious..

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

You're all over the place on this.
YOU are the one who used verse 5 to show that simply believing is "overcoming".

I proved to you by showing you that verse in CONTEXT - that "overcoming" requires MUCH more that just believing . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

We are saved by the blood of Christ.

Only to those who declare and believe.

Scripture NEVER prescribes "accepting" Him as "personal Lord and Savior".

What do you think we're doing when we declare and believe. Why would the Holy Spirit indwell you if you do not accept His Spirit.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Jesus said that a person must be BAPTIZED and believe (Mark 16:16) to be saved. This requires obedience of faith - NOT just belief.

The Holy Spirit baptizing you is a result of your belief. No, salvation does not require obedience. Do you like to boast BOL?

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

I proved to you by showing you that verse in CONTEXT - that "overcoming" requires MUCH more that just believing . . .

Of course it does, to the religious. You must always do more to be saved. For true believers, they are saved by grace through faith, and not of their filthy works.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

 

[Stranger]

There is not one Sacred Tradition that "trumps" Scripture - or vice versa.
You lose because you can't provide one, single example.

Oh, and all of your "Romanist" manure simply illustrates your moronically immature need to insult in the face of ZERO evidence.

The point here is that tradition in the Roman church trumps Scripture. As I have shown, Scripture and tradition are said to be equal. Yet tradition can be changed by the Roman church. Which means, Scripture can be changed. Therefore, tradition trumps Scripture in the Roman church.

Catechism #83"...In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's magisterium."

This is clear. It is another example of Romanists saying they don't believe something when they actually do.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

The point here is that tradition in the Roman church trumps Scripture. As I have shown, Scripture and tradition are said to be equal. Yet tradition can be changed by the Roman church. Which means, Scripture can be changed. Therefore, tradition trumps Scripture in the Roman church.

Catechism #83"...In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's magisterium."

This is clear. It is another example of Romanists saying they don't believe something when they actually do.

Stranger

First of all - there is no such thing as the "Roman Church" - so ALL of your arguments go right down the toilet.
If you want to debate whether the Catholic Church's teachings are anti-Biblical - that is a completely different kettle of fish.

Secondly - your grasp on Tradition is moronic, to say the least.
Whereas, disciplines like eating meat on Fridays can change - Sacred Tradition NEVER changes.

MINOR traditions that are not Apostolic in nature or on par with Scripture like Sacred Tradition is CAN change or be abandoned.
Get your facts straight . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only to those who declare and believe.

WRONG.

Only to those who have faith and obey.
Faith is FAR more than simply "believing".

As I have shown you many times now - even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19).
Demons don't have faith, which requires obedience.

What do you think we're doing when we declare and believe. Why would the Holy Spirit indwell you if you do not accept His Spirit.
Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Not for everyone . . .

Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES the will of my Father in heaven.

The Holy Spirit baptizing you is a result of your belief. No, salvation does not require obedience. Do you like to boast BOL?

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

According to Jesus Himself - You MUST be baptized with Water , which required obedience . . .
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit.

Of course it does, to the religious. You must always do more to be saved. For true believers, they are saved by grace through faith, and not of their filthy works.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

And anybody who believes they can be disobedient to God and still enter Heaven is not only ignorant of Scripture - but is also living in denial . . .

 

[Stranger]

First of all - there is no such thing as the "Roman Church" - so ALL of your arguments go right down the toilet.
If you want to debate whether the Catholic Church's teachings are anti-Biblical - that is a completely different kettle of fish.

Secondly - your grasp on Tradition is moronic, to say the least.
Whereas, disciplines like eating meat on Fridays can change - Sacred Tradition NEVER changes.

MINOR traditions that are not Apostolic in nature or on par with Scripture like Sacred Tradition is CAN change or be abandoned.
Get your facts straight . . .

Who determines what is 'sacred tradition'?

If Sacred Tradition never changes, then why does it change, or modify, or abandon lesser traditions?

If Sacred Tradition never opposes Scripture, then why is it necessary, since you have the Scripture.

Stranger