the use of OT images

[Randy Kluth]

I was discussing how Paul used Herod's temple as a means of Antichrist proclaiming his deity. And I notice how much John, in the Apocalypse, used the temple and other OT figures to express NT prophecies. What do you make of this use of OT language in the NT era? If the OT temple was portrayed as some kind of heavenly reality, what do you think that heavenly reality is?

I know the NT temple is portrayed as Christ or his Church. But do you see any equivalency between the various OT objects and Christianity?

 

[marks]

I was discussing how Paul used Herod's temple as a means of Antichrist proclaiming his deity. And I notice how much John, in the Apocalypse, used the temple and other OT figures to express NT prophecies. What do you make of this use of OT language in the NT era? If the OT temple was portrayed as some kind of heavenly reality, what do you think that heavenly reality is?

I know the NT temple is portrayed as Christ or his Church. But do you see any equivalency between the various OT objects and Christianity?

Interesting question! I know Chuck Missler had a series going through every detail of the tabernacle as an illustration of the NT Christian's life.

I'm anticipating that the Jews will eventually build their temple again, and the man of sin will commit the abomination of desolation in it.

Something that struck me once about OT/NT imagery, the menorah, and the lampstands.

In the OT, the menorah was a single piece of gold with the lamps on top. You could look at it and see it was a single piece. In the NT, Jesus showed John a vision of 7 lampstands, each separate from the other, each with its own lamp.

In the OT, God's people were defined as an ancestral nation. One piece. You could look and see the connection, they were all Jews.

In the NT, the present day, God's people are those born of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit makes us one, but you cannot see the Holy Spirit. All you see are the individual lampstands.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Interesting question! I know Chuck Missler had a series going through every detail of the tabernacle as an illustration of the NT Christian's life.

I'm anticipating that the Jews will eventually build their temple again, and the man of sin will commit the abomination of desolation in it.

Something that struck me once about OT/NT imagery, the menorah, and the lampstands.

In the OT, the menorah was a single piece of gold with the lamps on top. You could look at it and see it was a single piece. In the NT, Jesus showed John a vision of 7 lampstands, each separate from the other, each with its own lamp.

In the OT, God's people were defined as an ancestral nation. One piece. You could look and see the connection, they were all Jews.

In the NT, the present day, God's people are those born of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit makes us one, but you cannot see the Holy Spirit. All you see are the individual lampstands.

Much love!

I think I get you. Israel had a visible unity, but the unity of the Church is diverse and yet one in an invisible way? If I have this correct, I think you're onto something....

 

[Cassandra]

I have a stupid question.

If Christ was our Sacrifice, and it is no longer necessary to offer sacrificial lambs, then how could sacrificing any animal in the temple be okay, and how can the antichrist commit an abomination of desolation there?

If you look at the original AoD that Jesus was talking about, it indicated a time when the Romans were standing outside of the city, and the Christians there escaped when they saw it. before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

I do not understand how some guy is going to mess with the sacrifices, when there is no need for a sacrifice anymore. I sure don't think Jesus is going to approve of more animal sacrifices. He paid the price. The other is totally unnecessary.

 

[marks]

I think I get you. Israel had a visible unity, but the unity of the Church is diverse and yet one in an invisible way? If I have this correct, I think you're onto something....

Yes. The connection within Israel was seen, like their menorah. The connection amongst the church is unseen, like the lampstands.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

I was discussing how Paul used Herod's temple as a means of Antichrist proclaiming his deity. And I notice how much John, in the Apocalypse, used the temple and other OT figures to express NT prophecies. What do you make of this use of OT language in the NT era? If the OT temple was portrayed as some kind of heavenly reality, what do you think that heavenly reality is?

I know the NT temple is portrayed as Christ or his Church. But do you see any equivalency between the various OT objects and Christianity?

I see the Jewish Temple as metaphors for our realities and God's reality ie, salvation from sin and death.
The Jews missed the point and unfortunately it appears Christendom at large has done so as well.

The sacrificed lamb was not the end of the show in the Temple. It was the start of a whole raft of symbols where every aspect of Salvation is portrayed.

Here are some elements to enquire about and to reflect on...
The Priest, his attire and function; the layout of the furnishings as well as what they held and their purpose; the blood and what was done with it; the second apartment ie, what was in it; the heavy dividing curtain between the two apartments .......and don't forget the scape goat.

As I said, the Jews totally missed its significance right from the outset; they slaughtered thousands of lambs over millennia and didn't understand the connection let alone the rest of the rituals.

How can Christians get a fuller picture with a similar ignorance? No wonder Temple language is a mystery to them!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have a stupid question.

If Christ was our Sacrifice, and it is no longer necessary to offer sacrificial lambs, then how could sacrificing any animal in the temple be okay, and how can the antichrist commit an abomination of desolation there?

It couldn't be okay to do that and no supposed antichrist could commit an abomination of desolation in a meaningless temple where meaningless animal sacrifices were being performed. Simple as that. It would completely contradict what is written in Hebrews 8-10 which talks about how God did not desire animal sacrifices and was not pleased with them but was fully pleased with the "once for all" sacrifice that His Son made that put an end to any need for animal sacrifices ever again.

If you look at the original AoD that Jesus was talking about, it indicated a time when the Romans were standing outside of the city, and the Christians there escaped when they saw it. before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

Right. That is the abomination of desolation that Jesus talked about and He didn't talk about any other one.

I do not understand how some guy is going to mess with the sacrifices, when there is no need for a sacrifice anymore.

It's not going to happen.

I sure don't think Jesus is going to approve of more animal sacrifices.

Absolutely not. They would be a major insult to Him and His "once for all" sacrifice.

He paid the price. The other is totally unnecessary.

Absolutely true.

 

[quietthinker]

I have a stupid question.

If Christ was our Sacrifice, and it is no longer necessary to offer sacrificial lambs, then how could sacrificing any animal in the temple be okay, and how can the antichrist commit an abomination of desolation there?

If you look at the original AoD that Jesus was talking about, it indicated a time when the Romans were standing outside of the city, and the Christians there escaped when they saw it. before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

I do not understand how some guy is going to mess with the sacrifices, when there is no need for a sacrifice anymore. I sure don't think Jesus is going to approve of more animal sacrifices. He paid the price. The other is totally unnecessary.

Good question Cassandra, good question!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see the Jewish Temple as metaphors for our realities and God's reality ie, salvation from sin and death.
The Jews missed the point and unfortunately it appears Christendom at large has done so as well.

The sacrificed lamb was not the end of the show in the Temple. It was the start of a whole raft of symbols where every aspect of Salvation is portrayed.

Here are some elements to enquire about and to reflect on...
The Priest, his attire and function; the layout of the furnishings as well as what they held and their purpose; the blood and what was done with it; the second apartment ie, what was in it; the heavy dividing curtain between the two apartments .......and don't forget the scape goat.

As I said, the Jews totally missed its significance right from the outset; they slaughtered thousands of lambs over millennia and didn't understand the connection let alone the rest of the rituals.

How can Christians get a fuller picture with a similar ignorance? No wonder Temple language is a mystery to them!

I don't know why you think Christians are ignorant? Aren't you a Christian? Are you ignorant?

But I agree that there is more to learn about the specifics of the furniture and rituals, about the elements used. But you didn't reveal what you seem to claim to know?

I must say that though I agree with you that the Jews certainly didn't, in the end, appreciate how the Temple pointed to Christ, I can't say they didn't benefit from the meaning of animal sacrifices. They were the rituals that kept them in good standing with God.

So they certainly benefited. As long as they obeyed properly, the nation was blessed. And that was its purpose, to keep them in relationship with God and blessed as a nation. That was what God had promised Abraham, to have a nation representing Him and obedience to His word.

But undoubtedly Israel didn't fully comprehend how the rituals of the Temple related to the coming of Messiah. I'm not sure God was ready to let them know such details, since the time had not yet come. I'm not, for example, prepared to say that Anna and Simeon were ignorant of the Law out of foolishness when they at the proper time saw Jesus as the promised Messiah?

So now that we are in the NT era, we know that the Temple was intended to prepare Israel for the new Messianic era. But we can now explore all of the elements of the Law in how it spoke of Christ's redemption. As you said, these rituals were designed to show the deliverance from death that Messiah would bring.

I will say this much. I think the laws were designed to teach Israel how to hear God's verbal word to their hearts. Telling them what to eat and what not to eat was purely symbolic of good and evil. To really know when to partake of and when not to partake of we must hear from God's word within. It does no good to rely on symbols if a person does not know what they represent.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't know why you think Christians are ignorant? Aren't you a Christian? Are you ignorant?

keep my statements in context Randy and they wont be misunderstood.

I must say that though I agree with you that the Jews certainly didn't, in the end, appreciate how the Temple pointed to Christ, I can't say they didn't benefit from the meaning of animal sacrifices. They were the rituals that kept them in good standing with God.

Was it the rituals or was there other factors they obeyed?....like kindness to the widows and orphans, like not exploiting your neighbour by not stealing, killing, lying, taking his wife .....you know the rest?

But undoubtedly Israel didn't fully comprehend how the rituals of the Temple related to the coming of Messiah. I'm not sure God was ready to let them know such details, since the time had not yet come.

Would you apply that principle to prophecy as well?

I'm not, for example, prepared to say that Anna and Simeon were ignorant of the Law out of foolishness when they at the proper time saw Jesus as the promised Messiah?

It appears they got something (understanding) which the rest of the nation didn't, wouldn't you say? If it wasn't hidden from Anna and Simeon, how is it the rulers didn't, couldn't or wouldn't?

Telling them what to eat and what not to eat was purely symbolic of good and evil.

Could it have been to do with their health seeing the nations around them had many diseases they couldn't practically get a handle on? They blamed their god's ie, their relationship to them.

But I agree that there is more to learn about the specifics of the furniture and rituals, about the elements used. But you didn't reveal what you seem to claim to know?

I had hoped to stimulate some curiosity and questions regarding your own understanding but if you think you've got it in the bag, then there's little point saying much more?

 

[MatthewG]

I was discussing how Paul used Herod's temple as a means of Antichrist proclaiming his deity. And I notice how much John, in the Apocalypse, used the temple and other OT figures to express NT prophecies. What do you make of this use of OT language in the NT era? If the OT temple was portrayed as some kind of heavenly reality, what do you think that heavenly reality is?

I know the NT temple is portrayed as Christ or his Church. But do you see any equivalency between the various OT objects and Christianity?

Someone shared with me the curtians of the temple where purple and blue or there was something in the temple in that time period of those colors which resembled Jesus christ beating and when it was rent and torn in two it symbolized the completion of him fulfilling what was foretold to be completed.

It seems that if it is true there are many shadows and types within the Old Testament.

 

[Randy Kluth]

keep my statements in context Randy and they wont be misunderstood.

Little quips don't explain things.

Was it the rituals or was there other factors they obeyed?....like kindness to the widows and orphans, like not exploiting your neighbour by not stealing, killing, lying, taking his wife .....you know the rest?

Since I have to provide context for you, we were talking about Jews benefiting from the Law. The Law included kindness to widows along with the rituals.

Would you apply that principle to prophecy as well?

That *is* prophecy! Fulfillment of the Law in Messiah is the essence of prophecy.

It appears they got something (understanding) which the rest of the nation didn't, wouldn't you say? If it wasn't hidden from Anna and Simeon, how is it the rulers didn't, couldn't or wouldn't?

You were the one generalizing that the Jews didn't get it. I would argue that at times they did, and at other times they didn't. I don't paint the Jewish People "black" as if they are always evil. That is kind of a "total depravity" argument, and certainly I would not agree with that here. All are guilty of sin, but the degree of sin in a nation or in a person is a kind of a "pendulum" thing.

Could it have been to do with their health seeing the nations around them had many diseases they couldn't practically get a handle on? They blamed their god's ie, their relationship to them.

Health was perhaps a secondary concern God had when He prescribed certain foods and forbade others. But clearly, they were symbolic because we are told that the Law basically symbolized Christ. He fulfilled it all, including the dietary laws.

So how did those dietary laws apply to Christ? Christ only followed God's word in everything he did. Nothing he did was a choice for what was unclean. He only chose for the clean. It is "healthy" to follow God's word. If you reject God's word, you'll be cursed.

How, in the NT era, do we know what is clean? We follow after the love of Christ, and all of the characteristics of his goodness. It has little to do with the food we eat except that we don't eat to disturb others. We are considerate of the needs of others when we eat.

I had hoped to stimulate some curiosity and questions regarding your own understanding but if you think you've got it in the bag, then there's little point saying much more?

Actually, your questions are just more questions than I initially asked. Apparently you don't have any answers then?

 

[Patrick1966]

I'm anticipating that the Jews will eventually build their temple again

I'm skeptical. It just seems TOO obvious.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Someone shared with me the curtians of the temple where purple and blue or there was something in the temple in that time period of those colors which resembled Jesus christ beating and when it was rent and torn in two it symbolized the completion of him fulfilling what was foretold to be completed.

It seems that if it is true there are many shadows and types within the Old Testament.

I read an excellent work on the Tabernacle and on the High Priestly Garments by Maureen Gaglardi a long time ago. She felt, if I remember correctly, that the red color symbolized the blood of Christ and the purple color symbolized the royalty of Christ. The curtains also had blue, representing, perhaps, heaven.

I think the Tabernacle on the inside represents the inward work of Christ, as opposed to what he did for us alone. When we are born again we become, in a sense, priests, and are able to see the curtains from the inside, with all 3 colors, along with the angels woven in.

Christ doesn't do everything for us. He comes inside us so that through him we can do things for him.

But in all we do we see it is his work completed at the Cross. Our work is done *in him.* He is the Tabernacle, or Temple. Through him we are built into that Temple together with him.

 

[Patrick1966]

No wonder Temple language is a mystery to them!

All are invited to the following thread to discuss the "third" temple.

Thread 'Is Jesus the "third temple"?' Is Jesus the "third temple"?

 

[Willy50]

Someone shared with me the curtians of the temple where purple and blue or there was something in the temple in that time period of those colors which resembled Jesus christ beating and when it was rent and torn in two it symbolized the completion of him fulfilling what was foretold to be completed.

It seems that if it is true there are many shadows and types within the Old Testament.

Here is a link to a work by Henry Soltau.

The Tabernacle, the Priesthood and the Offerings - Henry William Soltau (#23196) - BTP

His offering on the vail is quite amazing as is the whole book, … a little tough to read for more than a little bit as one needs time to ponder prayerfully what has been presented.

 

[quietthinker]

Little quips don't explain things.

Since I have to provide context for you, we were talking about Jews benefiting from the Law. The Law included kindness to widows along with the rituals.

That *is* prophecy! Fulfillment of the Law in Messiah is the essence of prophecy.

You were the one generalizing that the Jews didn't get it. I would argue that at times they did, and at other times they didn't. I don't paint the Jewish People "black" as if they are always evil. That is kind of a "total depravity" argument, and certainly I would not agree with that here. All are guilty of sin, but the degree of sin in a nation or in a person is a kind of a "pendulum" thing.

Health was perhaps a secondary concern God had when He prescribed certain foods and forbade others. But clearly, they were symbolic because we are told that the Law basically symbolized Christ. He fulfilled it all, including the dietary laws.

So how did those dietary laws apply to Christ? Christ only followed God's word in everything he did. Nothing he did was a choice for what was unclean. He only chose for the clean. It is "healthy" to follow God's word. If you reject God's word, you'll be cursed.

How, in the NT era, do we know what is clean? We follow after the love of Christ, and all of the characteristics of his goodness. It has little to do with the food we eat except that we don't eat to disturb others. We are considerate of the needs of others when we eat.

Actually, your questions are just more questions than I initially asked. Apparently you don't have any answers then?

Answers?....self sacrifice is the principle of the Kingdom of God. The decalogue reflects these principles. Jesus was its embodiment. Many other laws Israel were given where to deal with the fallen human condition in that culture and/ or they inform folk about health in various areas of their reality.
There'll be laws about a woman's period time and dietary laws, animal products which are healthier than others and so on. There are laws to do with murder and manslaughter/ cities of refuge.....laws to bring some sort of order and fairness in what would otherwise have been a society where anarchy promotes the survival of the fittest.

 

[marks]

I'm skeptical. It just seems TOO obvious.

Many people feel the same way. I just go with what I read.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Answers?....self sacrifice is the principle of the Kingdom of God. The decalogue reflects these principles. Jesus was its embodiment. Many other laws Israel were given where to deal with the fallen human condition in that culture and/ or they inform folk about health in various areas of their reality.
There'll be laws about a woman's period time and dietary laws, animal products which are healthier than others and so on. There are laws to do with murder and manslaughter/ cities of refuge.....laws to bring some sort of order and fairness in what would otherwise have been a society where anarchy promotes the survival of the fittest.

That is a partial answer, but certainly not a real effort at forming a comprehensive answer. Describing that the Law dealt with the fallen human condition, addressed physical uncleanness and health issues, and provided for social justice is just describing the Law--it doesn't much answer the question overall. It doesn't much explore how these things are to be interpreted in light of NT realities.

We know what the Law consisted of, a temple, a priesthood, and sacrifices, as well as 613 laws describing rituals and practices designed to keep Israel in covenant with God. But how do the specifics of these laws translate into NT considerations?

We usually only get, "Christ is the final Sacrifice, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." But what do dietary laws have to do with Christian understanding? What do festival observances have to do with Christianity? You'll have to do more if you want to give any real answers.

 

[quietthinker]

That is a partial answer, but certainly not a real effort at forming a comprehensive answer. Describing that the Law dealt with the fallen human condition, addressed physical uncleanness and health issues, and provided for social justice is just describing the Law--it doesn't much answer the question overall. It doesn't much explore how these things are to be interpreted in light of NT realities.

We know what the Law consisted of, a temple, a priesthood, and sacrifices, as well as 613 laws describing rituals and practices designed to keep Israel in covenant with God. But how do the specifics of these laws translate into NT considerations?

We usually only get, "Christ is the final Sacrifice, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." But what do dietary laws have to do with Christian understanding? What do festival observances have to do with Christianity? You'll have to do more if you want to give any real answers.

What we allow into our bodies whether through our ears or our mouth bears on our health physically and emotionally, let alone the experiences we all are subject to. God is into restoring his image and he does it by feeding us healthy input. It includes both diet and good information. Will we hear and allow it? That is 101 of the story of salvation.

Generally we think in terms of sacrifice being something killed and laid on an altar. It is much more. Jesus, the majesty of heaven condescending to become a man....and stay a man for the love of man is a gob-smacking sacrifice worthy of contemplation. The fact that men killed him without resisting tells us further of God's character.

Israel were meant to be God's ambassadors to God's character to a wayward world. The Exodus, an unparalleled deliverance mirrors the great deliverance by Jesus' experience. Did they forget it? it took only a few weeks before they were worshipping a golden calf.

We know today what Israel was/ is a witness to. It's an embarrassment to the high privilege they were given. Is it any different with those claiming Jesus as their Lord?

God's utterances through his Prophets are so bent out of shape by those claiming allegiance to him his character is hardy visible to the outside world.....and yet his Spirit perseveres with men's recalcitrance.