The Verdict... Guilty.

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FollowHim

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I fail, spectacularly, to see your point. I've said before that Israel, not being able to follow the laws, was, in fact, saved by faith. So, this doesn't shock me. What does shock me is that for some reason you can see that OT Israel was meant to live by faith, but now Christ has come, you expect people to toe the line with the laws. 'Cause we're now perfect.
Look...I know no one by you and God knows your heart. I can't guess what it thinks in that instant some dude cuts you off in traffic, or makes your wife cry because she said something at a cafe, or something like that. But, as I pointed out in my last post; Christ made it startlingly clear...those moments you experience anger, or jealousy or lust...even for a moment in your heart...you have broken the 10 commandments. It's not just about external compliance. It never has been. That's what the Pharisees could never understand. It's about heart attitude, and our hearts, while not being stone anymore, still live within this world. Its a constant battle; the unwilling heart against the truth and goodness of God. Yes...I agree we are capable and most certainly should fight, day in and day out against that. And we should expect to see sucess in our battles. But the idea that a saved person is immediately able to have all pure thoughts and impulses and therefore live perfectly as well. It simply is not biblical or in any way realistic.


I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't make a lick of sense. "Grow in perfection"? That's like the ridiculous "I'm giving it 200%" ...shouldn't they know that % is only out of 100, and therefore should only say 'I'm giving it 100%' ...in other words, 'my everything'.
When we reach 'perfection', we have, by definition, hit perfect. We need no improving, bettering. Perfect means 'as good as it possibly gets'.
IF we have anything to grow in, we cannot possibly start at perfect. That's nonsense.
And what's this "known sins" business? Are you saying that only sins you are aware off count? If you are oblivious to them, they don't count on the cosmic scale and you are therefore 'perfect'? Because, I'm not sure God would agree. And you'd have a hard time proving that from scripture.


Question: how can you be 'worked in and convicted' if you are perfect? I think, to quote the princess bride: "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."
To be 'worked in' means you NEED work done. To be 'convicted' means you NEEDED convicting on something you did/thought/said. Whereas to be 'perfect' means you NEED nothing, you are....perfect.

All the verses you posted above...they are not speaking about us being perfect. They're talking about being set free from sin! And being set free from something doesn't make us perfect, it just makes us free to fight! To work against that which wants to enslave us. But the interesting thing is, I think, that Paul elsewhere warns that slavery can be fallen back into by attempting to achieve righteousness through works. Through forcing oneself to follow a self impossed restrictions that God, in his grace, does NOT demand. His grace and freedom allows for the fight and for the progress we make in the Spirit...but attempting to coral oneself to the laws, will never achieve that.


Not a dodgy teaching? Let's see. You seem to claim that Christ wasn't fully God while on earth. That seems a bit heretical, sorry. Then you seem to claim that if Christians are just good enough, or are proper Christians, they are perfect...which seems to mean what? That they follow the ten commandments perfectly? Except, somehow these 'perfect' Christians still have to grow and be convicted. Go figure. Not really sure where that leaves anyone.
Oh wait...I know, under the burden of perfectly following laws or not being called a real Christian. Buck up or ship out.
But I suppose it's just as well old Israel was saved by faith alone. But that currency is no good for us.
Truly baffled.
Small point. An intention is not sin, it is the intention, or desire, or proposition to sin. Temptation is the creating of an idea of sin and it's outcomes before the action.

If this is sin, Jesus sinned. Or similarly dreaming about sexual relations with another is part of our biology. Acting on it is sinful. Dwelling and cultivating passions destroys the heart, while honest admitting emotional desires is part of a righteous walk

A man is righteous not because he does not feel the attraction of things, by rather they know the true consequences and costs involved.

Many a gangster lives well for 10years but suffers and looses it all soon after ending in a fat worse place, for far longer, where what they gained could be had a not great risk on violent effort. So who is the fool?
 
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Naomi25

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Small point. An intention is not sin, it is the intention, or desire, or proposition to sin. Temptation is the creating of an idea of sin and it's outcomes before the action.

If this is sin, Jesus sinned. Or similarly dreaming about sexual relations with another is part of our biology. Acting on it is sinful. Dwelling and cultivating passions destroys the heart, while honest admitting emotional desires is part of a righteous walk

A man is righteous not because he does not feel the attraction of things, by rather they know the true consequences and costs involved.

Many a gangster lives well for 10years but suffers and looses it all soon after ending in a fat worse place, for far longer, where what they gained could be had a not great risk on violent effort. So who is the fool?

I agree that we must resist acting upon such intents. But...how do you explain Matt 5, where Jesus explicitly teaches that to have anger for a person, or to lust for another, is the same as murder or to commit adultery?
Thanks.
 
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Naomi25

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@brakelite ...look, I do not wish to argue with you. I have long admired our ability to disagree on doctrinal issues but still enjoy easy conversations. I respect you and find you have a good mind which challenges me. Perhaps we ought to let this current conversation fall and agree to disagree? All we can really do when disagreeing on such matters is faithfully follow what we each see scripture saying and where we feel the Spirit leading in any case. I seriously doubt my ability to sway you anyway!
 

Soverign Grace

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  • STUBBORN FAITH
BY NATHAN BROWN |


On a number of occasions during his writing life, Nobel Prize winner and author Elie Wiesel tried to re-tell the story of a profound experience he’d had as a young boy in the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz. He wrote a play, a novel and even a cantata to try to re-create his memory of this event, each of which remained unpublished. Finally, he wrote another play, set in another time and location, to try to capture the spirit of the event, which was published in 1979 as The Trial of God. But his re-imagining of the story remains less compelling than even a brief re-telling of the experience itself.

Amid the terrors of the camp, a scholar of Judaism befriended 15-year-old Wiesel and invited him to study together whenever they had opportunity, as “their act of religious defiance”. One evening, the scholar took Wiesel back to his barracks, where they met with two other highly accomplished Jewish legal scholars. Together, these three scholars had decided to put God on trial for the suffering and horror they were witnessing around them, for “allowing His children to be massacred”.

With Wiesel as the only audience, the three scholars argued the case against God over a number of evenings. With all the available evidence compiled, all the arguments made, the scholars arrived at a unanimous verdict: “The Lord God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, was found guilty of crimes against creation and humankind.”

Their solemn conclusion reached, the participants in the makeshift courtroom fell silent. The silence was only interrupted when one of them noted that it was time for evening prayers—and then together they recited the traditional evening service.


Their faith demanded a verdict against God, which gave way to silence . . . and then to worship. This story is equally awe-inspiring, troubling and challenging. And it encapsulates the central tension of faith.

At least to some degree, faith offers an explanation of “life, the universe and everything” as author Douglas Adams put it. It provides a rationale for how things are, an overview of what matters most, perhaps glimpses of the Power at work behind our physical world and everyday lives, and an expectation of how things ought to be. Faith then sketches out some principles for how to live well within these realities, as well as prompting us to look for, to hope for and even to work for something more.

But then life happens—in all its tragedy, beauty and ordinariness—and the explanations, rationales and expectations of faith seem to fall short at exactly the moment when we most need faith. Our faith is disappointed, our God is guilty or absent at best, the universe seems not as good as we had hoped and our best “living well” seems to count for little. And when our best believing feels like it has turned to dust, we most need faith.

In that “eternity of silence”—as Wiesel would later describe it—between the damning verdict on the failures and disappointments of faith and the time for evening prayers, we choose faith or not. Some would seek to diminish this silence with arguments about our incomplete knowledge and inadequate understanding—but these are the problems, not the answers. That we work with human limitations of perspective and insight is reason for both our need for faith and why our faith is so fraught.

When it seems God is guilty of tragic and criminal neglect, we need evening prayers more than ever. When our best efforts at doing good in the world seem to achieve nothing or worse, we need to choose the next good thing. Somehow, amid the silences that follow tragedy and disappointment, we need to go on. And faith offers us the best possibility of this.

This is why worship is such an important element of faith. To worship is to look outside ourselves and our present circumstances. Worship is the choice to break the silence of disappointment and tragedy with prayer—because it is time to pray, rather than waiting for our feelings to come around. Rather than re-starting the argument, restating the verdict or lapsing into permanent silence, we speak into this silence and break the power of the silence.

This “going through the motions” might sound counterintuitive when we place so much store in the value of authenticity, but acting on what we believe, beyond what we can be sure of and before we feel like it, is precisely what we mean when we talk about faith. In this sense, worship is choosing to act in faith: “We think that if we don’t feel something there can be no authenticity in doing it,” wrote The MessageBible translator, Eugene Peterson. “But the wisdom of God says something different: that we can act our way into a new way of feeling much quicker than we can feel ourselves into a new way of acting. Worship is an act that develops feelings for God, not a feeling for God that is expressed in an act of worship.”

The story of those three Jewish scholars and the young Wiesel that night in the barracks of the Auschwitz death camp is haunting. In those horrific circumstances, finding God guilty of crimes against creation and humanity seems so devastatingly just. In those horrific circumstances, an “eternity of silence” seems the only appropriate thing to offer. In those horrific circumstances—at the time for evening prayers—reciting the evening service seems the only human response, a courageous and humble act of religious defiance and stubborn faith.

So, after having read the above, how would YOU defend God when looking into a pit of burning children?

One of the first books I read when I sought God was a book about Corrie ten Boom and her sister. It haunted me as I went through my own dark trials. My faith grew over the years yet I'm still at the point where I'm staring into the abyss of injustice and corruption and God is silent.

What do we do then?

This is something I have struggled deeply with and am at this moment struggling with. I don't have the answers even after walking with God many years.
 
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4Jesus

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One of the first books I read when I sought God was a book about Corrie ten Boom and her sister. It haunted me as I went through my own dark trials. My faith grew over the years yet I'm still at the point where I'm staring into the abyss of injustice and corruption and God is silent.

What do we do then?

This is something I have struggled deeply with and am at this moment struggling with. I don't have the answers even after walking with God many years.

The best I can come up with, is to blame them - blame the evil ones and their followers. Not let the responsible parties actions be thrown at God-the-Father and God-the-Son, because that's letting the responsible parties get off-the-hook, so to speak, and put God on-the-hook, when all of this evil is the result of free will choices made by the evil ones, and their followers. They love their free will, until it's time to take responsibility for their actions, yet at the same time holding Christians to be responsible for their actions/sins - the ultimate hypocrites.

Justice is coming - it's just delayed at this point. And it stinks, living with it, living with the injustice - it takes life away even when still alive. How much more joyous will Jesus' Kingdom be once justice has commenced?
 
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bbyrd009

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Small point. An intention is not sin, it is the intention, or desire, or proposition to sin. Temptation is the creating of an idea of sin and it's outcomes before the action.

If this is sin, Jesus sinned. Or similarly dreaming about sexual relations with another is part of our biology. Acting on it is sinful. Dwelling and cultivating passions destroys the heart, while honest admitting emotional desires is part of a righteous walk

A man is righteous not because he does not feel the attraction of things, by rather they know the true consequences and costs involved.

Many a gangster lives well for 10years but suffers and looses it all soon after ending in a fat worse place, for far longer, where what they gained could be had a not great risk on violent effort. So who is the fool?
satans dialectic, but imo you are right there
I agree that we must resist acting upon such intents. But...how do you explain Matt 5, where Jesus explicitly teaches that to have anger for a person, or to lust for another, is the same as murder or to commit adultery?
Thanks.
ok zing
 
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bbyrd009

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One of the first books I read when I sought God was a book about Corrie ten Boom and her sister. It haunted me as I went through my own dark trials. My faith grew over the years yet I'm still at the point where I'm staring into the abyss of injustice and corruption and God is silent.

What do we do then?

This is something I have struggled deeply with and am at this moment struggling with. I don't have the answers even after walking with God many years.
imo take a stand, make some noise, piss off all the wrong ppl! Offend the crap out of them, if you can! Gandhi did it, you can too
Kaepernick did it...etc

plant a spike in de Erets, yuo
 
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bbyrd009

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The best I can come up with, is to blame them - blame the evil ones and their followers. Not let the responsible parties actions be thrown at God-the-Father and God-the-Son, because that's letting the responsible parties get off-the-hook, so to speak, and put God on-the-hook, when all of this evil is the result of free will choices made by the evil ones, and their followers. They love their free will, until it's time to take responsibility for their actions, yet at the same time holding Christians to be responsible for their actions/sins - the ultimate hypocrites.

Justice is coming - it's just delayed at this point. And it stinks, living with it, living with the injustice - it takes life away even when still alive. How much more joyous will Jesus' Kingdom be once justice has commenced?
under the law, almost every sin requires blood...
can be taken more than one way i guess
greater love has no man than to die for his friends
 
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FollowHim

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I agree that we must resist acting upon such intents. But...how do you explain Matt 5, where Jesus explicitly teaches that to have anger for a person, or to lust for another, is the same as murder or to commit adultery?
Thanks.
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, 'is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matt 5
Anger against a brother, ie another Christian, not everyone. People miss-understand, those of the elect are to be shown love as Jesus shows us love. And anger is always in response to interactions, and is expressed in our language. Jesus is saying we have no justification be angry with the people of God.

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5

Lustfull looks are the same as requesting an adulterous affair with an individual. Appreciating beauty is one thing, fantasy about sex is another. It is through this fantasy that adultery begins.

These two situations are actions of our hearts and minds. This is not instant reactions to individuals, but contemplated reactions.

I say this because people are annoying, we get irritated, and wish some people we want to avoid interacting with. Being annoyed is not sin, but turning this into innappropriate anger is sin.
Equally meeting beautiful people does not lead you to want to have sex with them. Once you get to know people it soon becomes clear rather the opposite becomes apparent.

I have listened to some who are literally overcome with lustful desires about every potential person they meet and they are truly unwell and driven by self indulgence in a very destructive manner. The problem is it is not difficult to be attracted to people and let relationships grow in inappropriate directions, but such individuals often feel there is no way they can be intimate or loved by others, which is truly a sad place to be. A study of communes which were set up on the basis you could sleep with who you like, soon realised sex is such a superficial experience when you do not care for those you interact with, and it destroys something that is fundamental to something very precious in our lives.

So Jesus is talking about issues of the heart matter, and need to be handled carefully, because they can if being fed turn into sin.
 
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4Jesus

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under the law, almost every sin requires blood...
can be taken more than one way i guess
greater love has no man than to die for his friends

I hear ya, and I agree, we're all sinners, in need of Jesus' sacrifice.

I guess I differentiate (and I could be wrong here, just how I view things currently) sinners and evil is by those who are sinners and follow Jesus and have accepted His sacrifice for the sins, and evil is followers of satan and who either don't believe in sins or don't care (ultimately) for hurting others or who are purposefully against God-the-Father (or deny His existence or God-the-Son's existence) and worship satan (directly or by denying Jesus).

I think (and again, I could be wrong) it comes down to those Jesus wages war against in Revelation and those who are His and He protects and will inherit eternal life.
 

Naomi25

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22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, 'is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matt 5
Anger against a brother, ie another Christian, not everyone. People miss-understand, those of the elect are to be shown love as Jesus shows us love. And anger is always in response to interactions, and is expressed in our language. Jesus is saying we have no justification be angry with the people of God.

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5

Lustfull looks are the same as requesting an adulterous affair with an individual. Appreciating beauty is one thing, fantasy about sex is another. It is through this fantasy that adultery begins.

These two situations are actions of our hearts and minds. This is not instant reactions to individuals, but contemplated reactions.

I say this because people are annoying, we get irritated, and wish some people we want to avoid interacting with. Being annoyed is not sin, but turning this into innappropriate anger is sin.
Equally meeting beautiful people does not lead you to want to have sex with them. Once you get to know people it soon becomes clear rather the opposite becomes apparent.

I have listened to some who are literally overcome with lustful desires about every potential person they meet and they are truly unwell and driven by self indulgence in a very destructive manner. The problem is it is not difficult to be attracted to people and let relationships grow in inappropriate directions, but such individuals often feel there is no way they can be intimate or loved by others, which is truly a sad place to be. A study of communes which were set up on the basis you could sleep with who you like, soon realised sex is such a superficial experience when you do not care for those you interact with, and it destroys something that is fundamental to something very precious in our lives.

So Jesus is talking about issues of the heart matter, and need to be handled carefully, because they can if being fed turn into sin.

I pretty much agree with what you say here. I just think the line of demarcation between 'appreciation and lust' or 'irriation and anger' is perhaps a very fine one that is not so easy to point to, especially when we tend to speak in more general terms on the topic, but 'on the ground', its in individuals that it plays out, and everyone is different.

That's why the whole issue is a little...sensitive, I think. Some say "if you're saved you WILL follow these rules, period". But then we have those who point out, "but Jesus says you can easily follow those rules externally but break them internally". And then we have others saying "It's not breaking them if they don't cross that line, internally". But of course, only God knows that. So...what have we in the end? People doing things that COULD mean something, or could mean they are just like the Pharisees, following laws that are empty as they are devoid of heartfelt devotion.
In the end, it simply comes down to this: Christ saves us and only HE knows the true state of our hearts and intents. Let him be the judge. Of our inward and outward deeds.
 

Soverign Grace

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The best I can come up with, is to blame them - blame the evil ones and their followers. Not let the responsible parties actions be thrown at God-the-Father and God-the-Son, because that's letting the responsible parties get off-the-hook, so to speak, and put God on-the-hook, when all of this evil is the result of free will choices made by the evil ones, and their followers. They love their free will, until it's time to take responsibility for their actions, yet at the same time holding Christians to be responsible for their actions/sins - the ultimate hypocrites.

Justice is coming - it's just delayed at this point. And it stinks, living with it, living with the injustice - it takes life away even when still alive. How much more joyous will Jesus' Kingdom be once justice has commenced?

Throughout Scripture many promises are made, and I have seen some remarkable answers to prayer - a friend and I prayed for the removal of a corrupt principal and unbelievably he was removed. It's just I'm dealing with overt corruption and have cried out to God for His judgment on the evildoers and I have not seen it come yet. These are the times when it's hard going - but I keep looking to see what God wants of me in it. I'm unsure what my next action should be.
 

Soverign Grace

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imo take a stand, make some noise, piss off all the wrong ppl! Offend the crap out of them, if you can! Gandhi did it, you can too
Kaepernick did it...etc

plant a spike in de Erets, yuo

A lot of people were angry but I give Kaepernick credit.
 
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bbyrd009

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I hear ya, and I agree, we're all sinners, in need of Jesus' sacrifice.
i have always just nodded my head here, but wadr i gotta now disagree, as strange as this maybe sounds. I killed Christ-in-me when i founded the world, imo (iow i tossed being a little child when i formed an ego and began serving it instead, perhaps); Jesus "sacrifice" i need in what way, would you say? God didnt need it as we are commonly taught (I desire mercy, not sacrifice; Who told you that you were naked?), and even Isaiah made plain No Son of Man may die for another's sins...

So wadr i think, am convinced now, that that needs a rethink, this "...in need of Jesus' sacrifice," even if it is true on a certain level, yes.
 
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22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, 'is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matt 5
Anger against a brother, ie another Christian, not everyone. People miss-understand, those of the elect are to be shown love as Jesus shows us love. And anger is always in response to interactions, and is expressed in our language. Jesus is saying we have no justification be angry with the people of God.

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5

Lustfull looks are the same as requesting an adulterous affair with an individual. Appreciating beauty is one thing, fantasy about sex is another. It is through this fantasy that adultery begins.

These two situations are actions of our hearts and minds. This is not instant reactions to individuals, but contemplated reactions.

I say this because people are annoying, we get irritated, and wish some people we want to avoid interacting with. Being annoyed is not sin, but turning this into innappropriate anger is sin.
Equally meeting beautiful people does not lead you to want to have sex with them. Once you get to know people it soon becomes clear rather the opposite becomes apparent.

I have listened to some who are literally overcome with lustful desires about every potential person they meet and they are truly unwell and driven by self indulgence in a very destructive manner. The problem is it is not difficult to be attracted to people and let relationships grow in inappropriate directions, but such individuals often feel there is no way they can be intimate or loved by others, which is truly a sad place to be. A study of communes which were set up on the basis you could sleep with who you like, soon realised sex is such a superficial experience when you do not care for those you interact with, and it destroys something that is fundamental to something very precious in our lives.

So Jesus is talking about issues of the heart matter, and need to be handled carefully, because they can if being fed turn into sin.

A youth pastor rented a family member an uninspected house that had dangerous problems. The family member was left with permanent injuries. Our family tried to follow the "not take a brother to court" - it was WRONG. The family member incurred exorbitant bills with no way to pay for them. He couldn't get needed surgery because we let the youth pastor off.

I think we applied the wrong Scripture at the wrong time. It still hurts. That corrupt youth pastor walked off - he's a millionaire by the way. His family lost their business and he was shamed nationwide but he still never paid for the injury and the family member still has no money to pay for needed surgery.

I learned just what jerks "Christians" can be. In some cases I've found them to be worse than those in Satan's camp.
 
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bbyrd009

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I hear ya, and I agree, we're all sinners, in need of Jesus' sacrifice.

I guess I differentiate (and I could be wrong here, just how I view things currently) sinners and evil is by those who are sinners and follow Jesus and have accepted His sacrifice for the sins, and evil is followers of satan and who either don't believe in sins or don't care (ultimately) for hurting others or who are purposefully against God-the-Father (or deny His existence or God-the-Son's existence) and worship satan (directly or by denying Jesus).

I think (and again, I could be wrong) it comes down to those Jesus wages war against in Revelation and those who are His and He protects and will inherit eternal life.
"
The Passion

When Jesus died on the cross, he died much too soon, and most people were surprised that he had died that quickly (Mark 15:44). Crucifixion was designed to have condemned slaves suffer publically for days on end, not to die after a few hours. The whole idea of the cross was to make it difficult for a person to breathe and when a crucified person finally died, he died from asphyxiation and exhaustion. Someone who died after mere hours and did so with a loud shout, didn't die from the cruxifiction (Mark 15:37). Jesus certainly died, and he was certainly put to die on the cross, but he did not enter death because people had decided that he should do so..." Bitcoin and the Gospel of Jesus Christ
 

4Jesus

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i have always just nodded my head here, but wadr i gotta now disagree, as strange as this maybe sounds. I killed Christ-in-me when i founded the world, imo (iow i tossed being a little child when i formed an ego and began serving it instead, perhaps);

We all kill/killed Christ when we sin, and put our sins on His back. I don't think you're wrong in that line of thinking. We're sinners, we were born into this sin nature. We indulge, some more than others, in sins and pleasures of this world/life. That was what made Jesus' sacrifice necessary. Or we'd all still be expected to sacrifice animals for our sins.

Jesus "sacrifice" i need in what way, would you say? God didnt need it as we are commonly taught (I desire mercy, not sacrifice; Who told you that you were naked?), and even Isaiah made plain No Son of Man may die for another's sins...


For the sins we have committed, and since God-the-Father sent Jesus to end the sacrificial method to forgive sins/law-breaking, once and for all.

God didn't need it at all. God's fine, He's perfect in His laws. God needs nothing, especially from us. Jesus' sacrifice was for us.

These verses you mentioned, are old testament, when sacrificing of animals for transgressions was the way God-the-Father setup the sacrificial method to absolve us of the punishment do us when we break the law. Interestingly, the "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" was a foretelling of Jesus sacrifice, I think, in that it was the one sacrifice to end the method, and for mercy to reign in Jesus.

Which chapter and verse in Isaiah is that quote from? I'm having difficulty finding it.

So wadr i think, am convinced now, that that needs a rethink, this "...in need of Jesus' sacrifice," even if it is true on a certain level, yes.

I think it boils down to - have I transgressed God's laws: yes, therefore I need Jesus' sacrifice since God-the-Father sent God-the-Son to pay for my law-breaking if I repent (admit, recognize, and apologize for) of course.

I think you bring up good points. Thanks. I'm open to new ideas - they'll either strengthen my convictions, or it's enough to change my conviction, so bring it on :D
 
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4Jesus

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ha how big are that guys stones lol.
"Ill just piss on my 9 figure future, and make myself a pariah"

Na, he had nothing to lose at that point. I'm not trying to diminish what he did with the kneeling, but as far as his career, it was going down fast. He was backup material at best at that point, possibly into coaching high school/college instead. It happens - happened to RGIII too - he could've been a great one as far as stats go, but injuries brought him down quick.
 
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brakelite

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@brakelite ...look, I do not wish to argue with you. I have long admired our ability to disagree on doctrinal issues but still enjoy easy conversations. I respect you and find you have a good mind which challenges me. Perhaps we ought to let this current conversation fall and agree to disagree? All we can really do when disagreeing on such matters is faithfully follow what we each see scripture saying and where we feel the Spirit leading in any case. I seriously doubt my ability to sway you anyway!
I was thinking this very thing. I tend to over-explain and the result is a dissertation...which forces any respondent, in this case yourself, to write a treatise in order to critique my overly long drawn out thesis. And we get lost in a maze of confusing points and we both end up losing interest. So yeah, I also appreciate your contributions to this forum, particularly as one who emotes balance and common sense. Even though you are doctrinally totally wayward. Kidding.
 
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