The Watchtower Society At Our Doors

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shnarkle

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I get very nervous when people start quoting the devil ...
KJV Genesis 3
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
...to validate their own aspirations.

Are you implying that I'm quoting the devil? Take another look at what I posted, and you should see that it is the exact opposite of your reference to Genesis 3
 

Earburner

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I am no fan of general JW doctrines or culture, a fact that I've made quite clear on this forum. I'm a advocate for letting people explain their own beliefs, and hence visit many other churches. I've told how my visits to JW services and talking with their missionaries ended disastrously. Like I said, I am not a fan.

That being said, Martin's and Schnell's books are extremely inaccurate junk. I would not recommend that miseducation to anyone.

NO.

The first challenge of evangelizing anyone is showing them that you honestly care about them. You must first establish that you care, else even preaching with the tongue of angels is just clanking brass.
Of course love is the driving force for evangelizing/witnessing to others, the salvation of God through faith alone cannot be percieved or recieved any other way.
However, the language barrier is always an immedite front. Otherwise, the level of effective communication is lost in the perception of what one means, and how the listener discerns it.
Its called miscommunication!
 

shnarkle

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I get very nervous when people start quoting the devil ...
KJV Genesis 3
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
...to validate their own aspirations.

There's all the difference in the world between a works based salvation, and God's plan of salvation. Angels are divine, but God's elect are above the angels, but even granting that has not happened, being begotten of God necessarily results in a divine creation.


that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father...My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
There is a pattern throughout scripture where we see that it is only those who are begotten of the Spirit that can be called sons, e.g. Adam, the angels, i.e."the sons of god" who came and gathered around YHVH in the book of Job, and most notably, "the new creature in Christ". Those who are "born again", or begotten from above from spiritual water are a new creation. They are created divine, not by any act of their will, but by God's will.

Adam was created in God's image to reflect God, but instead of realizing that there was no need to strive to be like God because God created him in his very image, he thought he could learn to be like God. Jesus says, "you are gods".
We still think we need to know God when we need look no further than the fact that we're all created in his image. Adam thought he could attain to God's stature through an epistemological activity when he was already created in an ontological state of divinity. The gospel writer points out he was a "son of God".

Through disobedience, Christianity points out that Adam fell from that state, and his descendants are all born into that same state of condemnation.

In other words, one can't do anything to attain divinity. One must be begotten or created divine by God. The fact that one is a child of God is self evident. See the difference?
 
B

brakelite

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There's all the difference in the world between a works based salvation, and God's plan of salvation. Angels are divine, but God's elect are above the angels, but even granting that has not happened, being begotten of God necessarily results in a divine creation.




There is a pattern throughout scripture where we see that it is only those who are begotten of the Spirit that can be called sons, e.g. Adam, the angels, i.e."the sons of god" who came and gathered around YHVH in the book of Job, and most notably, "the new creature in Christ". Those who are "born again", or begotten from above from spiritual water are a new creation. They are created divine, not by any act of their will, but by God's will.

Adam was created in God's image to reflect God, but instead of realizing that there was no need to strive to be like God because God created him in his very image, he thought he could learn to be like God. Jesus says, "you are gods".
We still think we need to know God when we need look no further than the fact that we're all created in his image. Adam thought he could attain to God's stature through an epistemological activity when he was already created in an ontological state of divinity. The gospel writer points out he was a "son of God".

Through disobedience, Christianity points out that Adam fell from that state, and his descendants are all born into that same state of condemnation.

In other words, one can't do anything to attain divinity. One must be begotten or created divine by God. The fact that one is a child of God is self evident. See the difference?
I agree with much of the above, my suspicions were founded perhaps on an incorrect understanding of "divine"- when I hear that word I assume the people using it as a reference to self is an intimation of deity, like as in Mormonism.
I don't agree with you however that all men are now all born in the image of God...a faint suggestion perhaps, but as you said, to regain "divinity" necessitates being born again, and recreated in the image of the Son, Christ, through being sanctified by the Spirit.then, we become partakers of the divine nature, through the indwelling of the spirit of God.
As for Jesus statement, "ye are gods", I admit to always being confused about that. My only reference is when God told Moses regarding his relationship with Pharaoh
KJV Exodus 7
1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
The reference in psalms and the Lord's quote of it,
KJV Psalms 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

I simply dont understand.

KJV John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
 
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shnarkle

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I agree with much of the above, my suspicions were founded perhaps on an incorrect understanding of "divine"- when I hear that word I assume the people using it as a reference to self is an intimation of deity, like as in Mormonism.
I don't agree with you however that all men are now all born in the image of God...a faint suggestion perhaps, but as you said, to regain "divinity" necessitates being born again, and recreated in the image of the Son, Christ, through being sanctified by the Spirit.then, we become partakers of the divine nature, through the indwelling of the spirit of God.
As for Jesus statement, "ye are gods", I admit to always being confused about that. My only reference is when God told Moses regarding his relationship with Pharaoh
KJV Exodus 7
1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
The reference in psalms and the Lord's quote of it,
KJV Psalms 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

I simply dont understand.

KJV John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

A number of scholars and theologians, (most notably Wesley) have pointed out that Christ's disciples were bigots when they stopped people from casting out demons in Christ's name. Christ simply pointed out that if they're not against us, they with us.

My point is that when one is born again, I don't see how one can't see that everyone is created in God's image, and therefore worthy of the utmost respect as icons of God. God doesn't want anyone to be lost. To ignore or judge one unworthy of the golden rule is only going to convict us.

Adam was explicitly referred to as "son of God". Christ made the exact same claim. He was not engaging in blasphemy, nor were any of his followers who referred to themselves as "the way". Today, when someone walks up to you and says, "I am the way", what are you going to suspect? What do you say to the early church who were in the habit of saying this? To most ears it sounds like blasphemy. It isn't.

Only someone who has denied themselves completely can meaningfully make that claim. They have become transparent. They have become the proverbial donut hole. For all practical intents and purposes, they no longer exist.

Everywhere they go, they see Christ in others. Everyone they meet is an icon of God. How humbling that must be to realize there is only Christ. That is the essence of God's salvation.

I'll be the first to admit that it can be difficult to see the image of God in the redneck tossing fast food garbage out the window of his pickup truck, but I guarantee you that bigoted, atheist, redneck doesn't hold a candle to the tax collector who got up when Jesus told him to follow. The scum of the earth is sitting collecting taxes, and Christ walks up and says, "Follow me". That's what happens when one sees that humanity is worthy of respect regardless of what anyone thinks their credentials should be. God has given humanity transcendent value simply by stamping his image upon them.
 

Webers_Home

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Ps 82:1 . . God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.

There are only two categories of gods in the Holy Bible: the true and the false. To my
knowledge there is no intermediate category of gods sandwiched between the true and
the false-- gods are either one or the other; none are in between.

According to Jesus; there is only one true god (John 17:3). So then, by default, all other
gods are false gods, including the ones spoken of in Psalm 82.

John 10:35 . . If he called them gods

Now the thing to take into account is that "calling" someone a god does not identify
them as an actual god any more than calling little girls princess identifies them as actual
royalty; for example:

1Cor 8:5-6 . . For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth;
as there are gods many, and lords many; yet to us there is one God, the Father, of
whom are all things,

You see, an actual god is a creator, and an actual god is immortal; but the gods spoken
of in Psalm 82 are not creators as they themselves are men, nor are they immune to
death; viz: they don't continue from one generation to the next because, again, they are
only human.

Ps 82:7 . . you shall die like men.


FAQ: The statement "I said" is grammatically past tense; so, when was it that people
were called gods?


A: We have to go all the way back to the beginning for that information.

Gen 3:22 . . And the Lord God said: The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil.
_
 
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ChristisGod

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If you want to teach someone the Truth, focus on showing that Truth/love yourself and teaching Truth.
"Exposing" another belief system doesn't teach Truth, rather it just turns people against that "exposed" belief system and most commonly in atheists.
Well most of the NT epistles were written to correct false doctrines from false teachers that had crept into the church. So they were correcting the errors being taught with the TRUTH.

Listen to what Jesus and the Apostles said below :

Matt 23:13
13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!

Matt 23:15
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!

Matt 23:16
16 "Woe to you, blind guides!

Matt 23:23
23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!

Matt 23:25-26
25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

Matt 23:27-28
27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Matt 23:33-34
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

John 8:41-45
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Acts 20:28-31
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

2 Cor 6:14-17
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
"I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
17 "Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate," says the Lord.

2 Cor 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

1 Tim 1:3-4
As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.

1 Tim 6:3-5
If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves.

1 John 4:1-3
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 7-11
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

Jude 12-13
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Jude 17-19
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

hope this helps !!!
 

Bobby Jo

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-- What I wasn't aware of, and still don't know, is that where Muslims are allowed to "smoke", "drink", "do drugs", and "lie" to blend in with society so that they can go "undetected", -- I didn't know that Jehovah's Witnesses also operated under the same practice.

And I ask because I've had "discussions" with posters who espouse "JW" doctrines, but when confronted with their source ("JW" Doctrine) they actually complained to the Moderators who edited my comments.

So does someone have some insight why a "JW" would apparently espouse "JW Doctrines", but then deny that affiliation? It is DISHONEST/DECEPTIVE/DISREPUTABLE,-- or is lying something that Jesus and the Disciples practiced but somehow I missed it!?! :)

Thanks,
Bobby Jo
 

Yan

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If you want to teach someone the Truth, focus on showing that Truth/love yourself and teaching Truth.
"Exposing" another belief system doesn't teach Truth, rather it just turns people against that "exposed" belief system and most commonly in atheists.
It shows how the bible covers all religion because Islam itself was once a part of Abraham's offspring of Ishmael. So, when the bible shows the true path of God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then they will no longer can denied the truth. All exposed teaching were meant to make them repent, because Jesus himself was tried to warned them in the past. Black magic and sorcery are the works of the devil, how could God let them astrayed by practicing those evil & wrong doing since the beginning of time ?
Whosoever believes the words of the bible will be saved, because bible has covers all modern religion were came from the same source and it shows to the world the source of one true God of Israel who gave mercy to Abraham offsprings are all came from Israel.

Islam : Ishmael who lived in Philistine & Nabatean or Petra Jordan.
Christian : Part of Catholic until Martin Luther proclaim christianity
Catholic : Once was Roman Empire
Judaism : Original religion of Jacob
Kabbalah : The forbidden tree of life & knowledge
Hinduism : Part of Astarte/Ashtoreth worshipers & Ezekiel believers who worship Cherubim
Budha : Part of Ketura who exodus into asia.
 

Jane_Doe22

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-- What I wasn't aware of, and still don't know, is that where Muslims are allowed to "smoke", "drink", "do drugs", and "lie" to blend in with society so that they can go "undetected", -- I didn't know that Jehovah's Witnesses also operated under the same practice.

And I ask because I've had "discussions" with posters who espouse "JW" doctrines, but when confronted with their source ("JW" Doctrine) they actually complained to the Moderators who edited my comments.

So does someone have some insight why a "JW" would apparently espouse "JW Doctrines", but then deny that affiliation? It is DISHONEST/DECEPTIVE/DISREPUTABLE,-- or is lying something that Jesus and the Disciples practiced but somehow I missed it!?! :)

Thanks,
Bobby Jo
My guess (having not remotely been there and not being a JW) is that the information you had was not accurate and people felt misrepresented, which is very unpleasant for anyone.
 

Jane_Doe22

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It shows how the bible covers all religion because Islam itself was once a part of Abraham's offspring of Ishmael. So, when the bible shows the true path of God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then they will no longer can denied the truth. All exposed teaching were meant to make them repent, because Jesus himself was tried to warned them in the past. Black magic and sorcery are the works of the devil, how could God let them astrayed by practicing those evil & wrong doing since the beginning of time ?
Whosoever believes the words of the bible will be saved, because bible has covers all modern religion were came from the same source and it shows to the world the source of one true God of Israel who gave mercy to Abraham offsprings are all came from Israel.

Islam : Ishmael who lived in Philistine & Nabatean or Petra Jordan.
Christian : Part of Catholic until Martin Luther proclaim christianity
Catholic : Once was Roman Empire
Judaism : Original religion of Jacob
Kabbalah : The forbidden tree of life & knowledge
Hinduism : Part of Astarte/Ashtoreth worshipers & Ezekiel believers who worship Cherubim
Budha : Part of Ketura who exodus into asia.
Not sure what this has to do with my post.

Mu point was: if you want to teaching what you believe to be true truth, then focus your time teaching that.
Not wasting time rattling on about what you think somebody else believes.
 
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