The Witch of Endor and Luke's Chasm

[RedFan]

Did the story recounted in 1 Sam. 28 really happen? Wherever you come down on this, you’re going to be in good company. Smelik, “The Witch of Endor: 1 Samuel 28 in Rabbinic and Christian Exegesis Till 800 A.D,” Vigiliae Christianae, Vol.33 No. 2 (June 1979), has done the survey: Justin Martyr, Origen, Ambrose, and Augustine, among others, argued that Samuel did appear to Saul, while Tertullian, Eustathius of Antioch, Ephrem, Gregory of Nyssa, Evagrius Ponticus, Jerome, and Ambrosiaster, among others, argued that a demon in the appearance of Samuel had actually appeared.

This was a big deal in late antiquity. To quote from Trigg, “Eustathius of Antioch’s Attack on Origen: What Is at Issue in an Ancient Controversy?” Journal of Religion, Vol. 75, No. 2 (April 1995):

“Although to all appearances it was a straightforward historical narrative, it raised disturbing doctrinal and moral questions. Was a departed prophet subject, against his will, to a medium (έϒϒαστρίνθος in the LXX) and her presumed demonic accomplices? Could a righteous prophet be expecting a wicked king to join him shortly in hell? Could necromancy provide accurate knowledge of the future, and if so might it not be permissible to resort to it?”

“The passage 1 Sam. 28 assumed such importance because it challenged early Christian interpreters to explain an inspired text convincingly while at the same time being faithful to their conviction that all of Scripture was divinely inspired and consistent with the church’s rule of faith. Such interpreters could not ascribe the anomalies of the text to the limitations of an earlier time with a less differentiated understanding of the soul’s destiny. For them realistic narrative implied, and could scarcely be distinguished from, factual information about the past. . . For us, by contrast (unless we are Fundamentalists), the literal sense of biblical narrative does not necessarily imply factuality.”


Gregory of Nyssa relied in part on Luke 16:26 for his conclusion that the OT story couldn’t have been accurate. That Luke’s gospel recounts a parable didn’t matter to him; he was on board for the notion that the chasm between the living and the dead cannot be spanned.

Is the Witch of Endor one of those “Jewish myths” that Paul referenced in Titus 1:14, or did it really happen as written? If you think it did, where do you come down on the unbridgeable chasm mentioned in Luke’s parable? Fictional or real?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

It WAS SAMUEL, a great prophet, and bc Saul called him back God sent him a prophecy on his end, which came to pass and reminded him God had told him he would take the kingdom from him.
Look also to the transfiquration on the mount with Jesus and the two prophets.Luke 9:28-31, Moses and Elijah were not demons.
God can use an ass to speak to man. Numbers 22:23. Jesus said to the pharisees and saducees not to think themselves to be something bc they were of Abrahams seed for his Father could raise up seed to Abraham from stonesMt.3:7-10.

We serve a mighty, a powerful God who is able to do above anything we can think.

EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIE ,FOLLOW NO MAN BE LED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Great points raised in this post!

Did the story recounted in 1 Sam. 28 really happen? Wherever you come down on this, you’re going to be in good company. Smelik, “The Witch of Endor: 1 Samuel 28 in Rabbinic and Christian Exegesis Till 800 A.D,” Vigiliae Christianae, Vol.33 No. 2 (June 1979), has done the survey: Justin Martyr, Origen, Ambrose, and Augustine, among others, argued that Samuel did appear to Saul, while Tertullian, Eustathius of Antioch, Ephrem, Gregory of Nyssa, Evagrius Ponticus, Jerome, and Ambrosiaster, among others, argued that a demon in the appearance of Samuel had actually appeared.

Since necromancy was against God's law (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) and Saul himself was commissioned to remove all spirit mediums from the land.....if the living prophets would not speak to Saul, then why would a dead prophet speak to him from the grave? Since the Jews did not believe in an immortal soul originally (adopting the notion later under Greek influence) there was no "Samuel" to "bring up". The dead prophet was still in his grave awaiting the promised resurrection along with all the other faithful prophets of old. (Hebrews 11:8-13, Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

“Although to all appearances it was a straightforward historical narrative, it raised disturbing doctrinal and moral questions. Was a departed prophet subject, against his will, to a medium (έϒϒαστρίνθος in the LXX) and her presumed demonic accomplices? Could a righteous prophet be expecting a wicked king to join him shortly in hell? Could necromancy provide accurate knowledge of the future, and if so might it not be permissible to resort to it?”

Since the Jews did not believe in hell, that question is really not applicable. Jesus, in his parable recorded in Luke 16 was not referencing "hell" but "hades" which is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "sheol".....neither of these means a place of conscious torment, but a place of rest...a place of unconscious non-existence....a place from which Jesus would call all the dead back to life, like he did with Lazarus. (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14)

Gregory of Nyssa relied in part on Luke 16:26 for his conclusion that the OT story couldn’t have been accurate. That Luke’s gospel recounts a parable didn’t matter to him; he was on board for the notion that the chasm between the living and the dead cannot be spanned.

This parable has nothing to do with heaven and hell but more importantly, it was highlighting a change in circumstance...the Pharisees (represented by the rich man) once enjoyed "the bosom of Abraham" (a position of favor in Jewish understanding) and the the lowly sinners represented by the beggar did not, but their deaths were symbolic of a major change in position.....the beggar now elevated to the "bosom" position and the Pharisees relegated to "hades" or the grave where they were now viewed as spiritually dead.
Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.’ So, it is with the preaching of John B and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances. (Matthew 23:33) To Jews "gehenna" symbolized eternal death, not eternal torment.

Those who were humble, repentant sinners died to their former spiritually deprived condition and came into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the 'Greater Abraham', Jehovah the true God.

Is the Witch of Endor one of those “Jewish myths” that Paul referenced in Titus 1:14, or did it really happen as written? If you think it did, where do you come down on the unbridgeable chasm mentioned in Luke’s parable? Fictional or real?

I believe that it really happened as written. The 'spirit' that was 'brought up' by the spirit medium, was not Samuel but was impersonating him. The account infers that Saul did not see or hear the spirit speak but only the woman did. So because Saul was disobedient he lost God's favor and was left to the satanic influences around him.

In the parable, the change in conditions of the two parties was accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant was replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples were favored by God, because the evidence of the holy spirit was upon them....but not upon the Pharisees and other religious leaders. The “great chasm” that separated the symbolic rich man from Jesus’ disciples therefore represents God’s unchangeable, righteous judgment....there is no way to hang on to the old ways and still serve the interests of God as dispensed through Jesus and the new covenant, giving life through the blood of the Lamb.....something the Pharisees treated with contempt.

 

[quietthinker]

Did the story recounted in 1 Sam. 28 really happen? Wherever you come down on this, you’re going to be in good company. Smelik, “The Witch of Endor: 1 Samuel 28 in Rabbinic and Christian Exegesis Till 800 A.D,” Vigiliae Christianae, Vol.33 No. 2 (June 1979), has done the survey: Justin Martyr, Origen, Ambrose, and Augustine, among others, argued that Samuel did appear to Saul, while Tertullian, Eustathius of Antioch, Ephrem, Gregory of Nyssa, Evagrius Ponticus, Jerome, and Ambrosiaster, among others, argued that a demon in the appearance of Samuel had actually appeared.

This was a big deal in late antiquity. To quote from Trigg, “Eustathius of Antioch’s Attack on Origen: What Is at Issue in an Ancient Controversy?” Journal of Religion, Vol. 75, No. 2 (April 1995):

“Although to all appearances it was a straightforward historical narrative, it raised disturbing doctrinal and moral questions. Was a departed prophet subject, against his will, to a medium (έϒϒαστρίνθος in the LXX) and her presumed demonic accomplices? Could a righteous prophet be expecting a wicked king to join him shortly in hell? Could necromancy provide accurate knowledge of the future, and if so might it not be permissible to resort to it?”

“The passage 1 Sam. 28 assumed such importance because it challenged early Christian interpreters to explain an inspired text convincingly while at the same time being faithful to their conviction that all of Scripture was divinely inspired and consistent with the church’s rule of faith. Such interpreters could not ascribe the anomalies of the text to the limitations of an earlier time with a less differentiated understanding of the soul’s destiny. For them realistic narrative implied, and could scarcely be distinguished from, factual information about the past. . . For us, by contrast (unless we are Fundamentalists), the literal sense of biblical narrative does not necessarily imply factuality.”


Gregory of Nyssa relied in part on Luke 16:26 for his conclusion that the OT story couldn’t have been accurate. That Luke’s gospel recounts a parable didn’t matter to him; he was on board for the notion that the chasm between the living and the dead cannot be spanned.

Is the Witch of Endor one of those “Jewish myths” that Paul referenced in Titus 1:14, or did it really happen as written? If you think it did, where do you come down on the unbridgeable chasm mentioned in Luke’s parable? Fictional or real?

'God banned communication with the dead in Israel; one only needs to ask why?
Was it not a direct line with the demonic under the guise of loved ones departed?......isn't that why we are not to have anything to do with similar practices today?
Of course when one believes one goes to heaven or hell after dying the door is left open to the possibility of communication with them......and being the inquisitive people we are we would exploit it.....ie, get the skinny on the stock market, where to drop the most strategic bombs on enemies etc etc.

Also as you mentioned, if the story is seen as evidence of an afterlife we must also ask, how come Samuel (who was a righteous Prophet) is assuring Saul he'll see him tomorrow.....Saul who he had just berated as being rebellious and disobedient going to the same place as Samuel? hmmmmm...some strange arrangement God has there! Does that mean that when one gets to heaven, Hiltler could be your neighbour or perhaps Pol Pot. .......and what about 'Judgement Day'.... how does that fit the theory?.....or the resurrection from the dead at the last day??

 

[Robert Gwin]

Did the story recounted in 1 Sam. 28 really happen? Wherever you come down on this, you’re going to be in good company. Smelik, “The Witch of Endor: 1 Samuel 28 in Rabbinic and Christian Exegesis Till 800 A.D,” Vigiliae Christianae, Vol.33 No. 2 (June 1979), has done the survey: Justin Martyr, Origen, Ambrose, and Augustine, among others, argued that Samuel did appear to Saul, while Tertullian, Eustathius of Antioch, Ephrem, Gregory of Nyssa, Evagrius Ponticus, Jerome, and Ambrosiaster, among others, argued that a demon in the appearance of Samuel had actually appeared.

This was a big deal in late antiquity. To quote from Trigg, “Eustathius of Antioch’s Attack on Origen: What Is at Issue in an Ancient Controversy?” Journal of Religion, Vol. 75, No. 2 (April 1995):

“Although to all appearances it was a straightforward historical narrative, it raised disturbing doctrinal and moral questions. Was a departed prophet subject, against his will, to a medium (έϒϒαστρίνθος in the LXX) and her presumed demonic accomplices? Could a righteous prophet be expecting a wicked king to join him shortly in hell? Could necromancy provide accurate knowledge of the future, and if so might it not be permissible to resort to it?”

“The passage 1 Sam. 28 assumed such importance because it challenged early Christian interpreters to explain an inspired text convincingly while at the same time being faithful to their conviction that all of Scripture was divinely inspired and consistent with the church’s rule of faith. Such interpreters could not ascribe the anomalies of the text to the limitations of an earlier time with a less differentiated understanding of the soul’s destiny. For them realistic narrative implied, and could scarcely be distinguished from, factual information about the past. . . For us, by contrast (unless we are Fundamentalists), the literal sense of biblical narrative does not necessarily imply factuality.”


Gregory of Nyssa relied in part on Luke 16:26 for his conclusion that the OT story couldn’t have been accurate. That Luke’s gospel recounts a parable didn’t matter to him; he was on board for the notion that the chasm between the living and the dead cannot be spanned.

Is the Witch of Endor one of those “Jewish myths” that Paul referenced in Titus 1:14, or did it really happen as written? If you think it did, where do you come down on the unbridgeable chasm mentioned in Luke’s parable? Fictional or real?

Hi Red, we (Jehovah's witnesses) believe it happened, but it certainly was not Samuel. satan does not have the power to resurrect, only God or those whom He allows has that capability. Not only that but conjuring up the dead was a law violation, so why would He get involved at all. satan and the demons know us well, and are extremely intelligent spirit beings who could easily imitate Samuel. So the event was real, but the printed account was not all factual in our opinion.